Necromancer Stuff (Newbie Help)

[Warchon]

So, I'm playing D&D for the first time in over a decade. After some suggestions from players here regarding my general character concept (You guys are awesome!) I am having a blast with a Dread Necromancer.
I do start to worry I am overwhelming my DM and the one experienced player at the table with questions however, so I thought I might lay out here a few of the things I have been unable to find online.

If anybody knows some of this stuff, I appreciate you taking a moment!

If an animal has 1.5x strength bonus by virtue of having only one natural attack, does she lose it when, as a zombie, she gains Slam?

Is there any way to Animate Dead but forego assuming control of them, with the intent of asserting control with Rebuke?

I keep coming across interesting new Undead created through Animate Dead, presumably because they were written after the PHB. Is there a comprehensive list anywhere, or an updated version of the spell that lists all its options?

AE spells with duration: When does the damage and effects occur? Does it process during my turn? Individually during the turn of each creature inside? Can somebody run through it safely, or will it hit them the moment they step in? (Specifically I am using Kelgore's Grave Mist, which doesn't address any of this directly in the description).

Grappling Zombie: Does a creature that doesn't know pain or fear still abandon its grapple attempt after being hit with the AoO for attempting a grapple?

There also seems to be a lot of confusion on just how complicated my orders for a mindless undead can be. Some people say they need constant supervision and micromanagement, while at the same time it is a common tactic to simply dump a cadre of zombies in a mine with the intricate task of mining, refining, even delivering onyx. Has there been anything definitive from Wizards or is it entirely up to DM discretion?

How exactly does control battle work? Is there ever an opposed roll to assume control, or do five casters with various methods to command the undead simply bounce ownership back and forth until spells/rebukes are exhausted? If my undead are stolen from me and I kill the other character, do they still go uncontrolled or do they revert?

Caster Level boosts: specifically, a Dread Necromancer class feature improves my control pool based on Class Level rather than the usual Caster Level limit. Will effects (like Death Knell) that boost my caster level still improve this feature, if I maintain pure progression?

Undead Leadership. Obviously a necromancer is going to use zombies and skeletons for his Followers. What do you use to determine "level" here? HD? CR? Is replenishment free whenever you visit a town or graveyard? Level up? Come across undead in the wild?

I know this is a lot of questions. Not expecting anybody to sit down and do a bunch of research on my behalf, but if you know any of this out of hand, I appreciate the time.

Thanks for reading!

[FelineArchmage]

Undead Leadership. Obviously a necromancer is going to use zombies and skeletons for his Followers. What do you use to determine "level" here? HD? CR? Is replenishment free whenever you visit a town or graveyard? Level up? Come across undead in the wild?

If you're talking about Undead Leadership as in the feat, it will follow the same rules as the regular Leadership feat. You gain a cohort, whose level is calculated via a chart (usually character level+charisma bonus+other misc. modifiers. Your cohort's level cannot be higher than 2 levels lower than your own unless you take the Improved Cohort feat). You need to ask permission from your DM before taking leadership feats, but it basically gives you an NPC to the party, and it's part of the DM's responsibility (or a collaboration between the two of you) on how your cohort gets to you and why they decided to follow you around.

If you're not talking about Undead Leadership as in the feat, I would consider it. You - as a DN - can only control so many undead (even if that number is ridiculously high). If you have an undead cohort who can ALSO rebuke undead, you can get twice as many undead followers.

And definitely try and get awaken undead - you can make your undead intelligent and they can give orders to your stupid undead for you. :smallsmile:

Now, other questions. In regard to HD/CR, my husband (the cleric/necromancer expert of the two of us) says it would depend on how your DM wants to create the character. There are undead class levels in Libris Mortis, and also templates that give undead traits with level adjustments. For instance, you can take a few levels of ghoul or take a ghoul template. You'd have to discuss with your DM on what he's going to do.

Undead Followers and in terms of replenishment: Your followers from Leadership are separate from the ones that you rebuke. They don't HAVE to be skeleton or zombies. There are plenty of undead types that aren't those. Like ghouls, wights, etc. In terms of replenishing the undead you rebuke, hopefully your DM is giving you stuff TO rebuke and giving you lots of onyx. If you come by a graveyard and you have the onyx... hopefully you're already raising what you need.

Libris Mortis is your bible!

[PacMan2247]

The slam is an attack form gained by zombies, but they don't lose natural attacks they had in life. The natural attack will still do the same damage, but the slam adds a straight strength modifier without multiplier. (Monster Manual pg. 266)

[Telonius]

For grappling, the answer is in the Special Attacks section, under Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple):


Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

If the AoO succeeds and deals damage, the grapple fails, whether or not the creature trying to establish the grapple feels pain. (A particularly weak attack of opportunity could hit but be soaked up by Damage Reduction; if that happens, the grapple proceeds as normal).


Generally spells take effect on the round they're cast. An exception is for spells that have a casting time of 1 round or more; those spells usually take effect on the first round after you complete the casting. Kelgore's Grave Mist has a casting time of 1 standard action, so it starts working as soon as you cast it. Anybody in the area of effect takes the cold damage and might be fatigued. For the rounds following ... I'm actually having a hard time finding the exact rule of when the damage applies.

[Falontani]

So, I'm playing D&D for the first time in over a decade. After some suggestions from players here regarding my general character concept (You guys are awesome!) I am having a blast with a Dread Necromancer.
I do start to worry I am overwhelming my DM and the one experienced player at the table with questions however, so I thought I might lay out here a few of the things I have been unable to find online.

If anybody knows some of this stuff, I appreciate you taking a moment!

If an animal has 1.5x strength bonus by virtue of having only one natural attack, does she lose it when, as a zombie, she gains Slam?
Someone has already answered this correctly
Is there any way to Animate Dead but forego assuming control of them, with the intent of asserting control with Rebuke?
You as a caster can always forgo control of a creature; however you can't do it as part of the creation process, meaning that the HD must enter your animation control before you can transfer them to your rebuking pool.
I keep coming across interesting new Undead created through Animate Dead, presumably because they were written after the PHB. Is there a comprehensive list anywhere, or an updated version of the spell that lists all its options?
I would love it if there is, Look into the Necrosis Carnex, it is expensive but going to be one of your best friends
AE spells with duration: When does the damage and effects occur? Does it process during my turn? Individually during the turn of each creature inside? Can somebody run through it safely, or will it hit them the moment they step in? (Specifically I am using Kelgore's Grave Mist, which doesn't address any of this directly in the description).
Spells like Kelgore's Grave Mist, Wall of Fire, and Cloudkill all deal their damage upon the following:
Casting (when you cast it all in the area must save or take damage
End of turn (At the end of each creature's turn if they stay in the area)
Upon Entry (When a creature first enters the afflicted area they must make a save or take the effects of the spell, and if they end their turn there they are affected again)
Grappling Zombie: Does a creature that doesn't know pain or fear still abandon its grapple attempt after being hit with the AoO for attempting a grapple?
Someone else has already answered this question correctly
There also seems to be a lot of confusion on just how complicated my orders for a mindless undead can be. Some people say they need constant supervision and micromanagement, while at the same time it is a common tactic to simply dump a cadre of zombies in a mine with the intricate task of mining, refining, even delivering onyx. Has there been anything definitive from Wizards or is it entirely up to DM discretion?
This is definitely up to Rule 0, however I always picture it like programming a computer. You can command your zombie/skeleton to attack a creature, you can command them to guard an area. Or you can program them to "Attack wall with Pickaxe, if you see black gem bring it to Zombie (point at zombie)" then tell the other zombie, "If you receive black gem put it in barrel." etc
How exactly does control battle work? Is there ever an opposed roll to assume control, or do five casters with various methods to command the undead simply bounce ownership back and forth until spells/rebukes are exhausted? If my undead are stolen from me and I kill the other character, do they still go uncontrolled or do they revert?
According to the rules compendium, two people dominating a creature's mind must roll opposed charisma checks and the winner keeps control, although another use of a controllling ability will allow you to roll another opposed charisma check
Caster Level boosts: specifically, a Dread Necromancer class feature improves my control pool based on Class Level rather than the usual Caster Level limit. Will effects (like Death Knell) that boost my caster level still improve this feature, if I maintain pure progression?
By RAW, no, by RAI yes
Undead Leadership. Obviously a necromancer is going to use zombies and skeletons for his Followers. What do you use to determine "level" here? HD? CR? Is replenishment free whenever you visit a town or graveyard? Level up? Come across undead in the wild?
Usually HD will be the thing that is used, however I suggest using ghouls, wights, slaymates, and necrosis carnex; ask your DM what is allowed!
I know this is a lot of questions. Not expecting anybody to sit down and do a bunch of research on my behalf, but if you know any of this out of hand, I appreciate the time.

Thanks for reading!
Lucky for you, my specialty happens to be necromancy and this is my shtick ^_^

[Venger]

all the information you received from Falontani is correct except the part about wresting control of undead.

those rules about charisma are for enchantment effects such as dominate person.

you do indeed bounce control back and forth until you're out of rebukes or control undeads or what have you.

if I steal command of an undead from you and you kill me (assuming for the purposes of this that he is rebuked or otherwise under indefinite command and not temporary command like a spell), the undead will continue to follow the orders I've issued indefinitely. they neither go uncontrolled nor revert. Once you rebuke or ensorcel him under your control, you can boss him around as normal. my death does not cause him to go uncontrolled.

[Warchon]

Hot damn I wasn't anticipating such a comprehensive response so quickly. Thanks everybody who responded!
As for a list of undead to create, I've managed to track down a partial list at rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/37387/i-want-to-have-elite-troop-of-undead-but-which-undead
I know there is more because this list is missing some that I know about (notably dragons) but it is at least more options than the spell text provides.

[The Viscount]

The following are all the extra undead I know of that use animate dead.
Bloodhulk and Necrosis Carnex from MMIV
Skeletal Dragon and Zombie Dragon from Draconomicon

Others of note:
Defacer from MMIV can be made with create undead.
Bloodfire ooze and plague walker have their own specific rituals detailed in MMIV
Blackwing, Bonespur, Sanguineous Drinker and Serpentir from MMV can be made with create undead, and spectral rider with create greater undead.
Crypt thing from FF can be made with create undead.
Baneguard from Monsters of Faerun can be made with create undead. Banedead in the same book has a special ritual detailed.
Flameskull from Lost Empires of Faerun can be made with create undead, and are also totally radical.

[BlackOnyx]

The following are all the extra undead I know of that use animate dead.
Bloodhulk and Necrosis Carnex from MMIV
Skeletal Dragon and Zombie Dragon from Draconomicon



The Animated Fossil template from Libris Mortis doesn't specifically use Animate Dead, but instead creates animated fossils via particular rituals (per DM fiat) based on the creature animated. (As with Animate Dead, though, the resulting undead is mindless and obedient.)


Libris Mortis also has a couple sections devoted to variants for skeletons (fiery, nimble, soldier, and vicious) and zombies (bloodthirsty, diseased, fast, and hunting). Although it doesn't provide specific details for their creation, your DM could easily specify appropriate requirements if they so choose.


My DM was actually willing to go a step beyond the variants provided in the book, allowing my character to experiment with extra components during his castings of Animate Dead: 50gp in diamond yielded skeletons with DR/10 bludgeoning (vs. DR/5); vampire ashes yielded skeletons with Invisibility 1/day; and ashes from a fire elemental yielded skeletons with flaming eyes and fire immunity.


That said, all these stat boosts were entirely his call; I simply added the components and waited to see if anything would happen. I'd advise taking this approach if you want to introduce these kinds of variants into the mix; trying petition your DM for specific new templates has the tendency to come across as a bit greedy/gamey. Giving your DM the opportunity to introduce something creative/unexpected might make them more willing to allow these kinds of variants for your character.


There's also a couple spells that can permanently modify undead created by Animate Dead in some interesting ways:


Haunt Shift, in Libris Mortis, allows you shift the essence of an undead under 8HD into an object, allowing it to possess said item as if it were an animated object (so long as it has naturally moving parts). My PC at present is currently traveling with an animated carriage containing the essence of a brown bear skeleton and a cloth doll containing the essence of a slaymate.


Awaken Undead, in Spell Compendium, allows you to grant modest intelligence scores to your mindless undead, providing them the opportunity to take class levels and learn skills.


Personally, I really enjoy employing Animate Dead whenever possible, even over more potent spells like Create Undead and Create Greater Undead. Even if they tend to be a bit weaker in combat, the undead created by Animate Dead are expressly loyal from the get-go; no commanding or rebuking necessary. It cultivates more of a lord/retainer or parent/child relationship than than most other alternatives.

[BlackOnyx]

Oops, somehow double posted. Please don't mind me.

[gorfnab]

Some light reading material that should provide more Necromancer information:
Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2733)
Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214212-Reanimated-Dread-Necromancer-Handbook)
Collection of Necromatic Oddities (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8963)

[Warchon]

I suppose my next big concern is what options are available for protecting my mindless undead from Command Undead?
It's a little scary that they get no save at all--it seems really precipitous to be making an 18 HD zombie badass if any third level wizard can come along and just yell "Sic 'em!" and I get eaten by my own mount.
What I can think of off the bat is to ask a party member to carry a wand of Dispel Magic, and to grab Awaken Undead when it becomes available.
What else can I do to keep them under my control?

As an edge case note, does Command Undead become a de facto mind affecting spell when the target has an int score, thus allowing the opposed Cha checks?

[Telonius]

Magic Circle Against Good will help prevent mental control, though that would probably include your own commands.

[FelineArchmage]

I suppose my next big concern is what options are available for protecting my mindless undead from Command Undead?
It's a little scary that they get no save at all--it seems really precipitous to be making an 18 HD zombie badass if any third level wizard can come along and just yell "Sic 'em!" and I get eaten by my own mount.
What I can think of off the bat is to ask a party member to carry a wand of Dispel Magic, and to grab Awaken Undead when it becomes available.
What else can I do to keep them under my control?

As an edge case note, does Command Undead become a de facto mind affecting spell when the target has an int score, thus allowing the opposed Cha checks?

Also keep in mind that most of the core classes that have Command Undead as a spell have to prepare the spell (with the exception of sorcerer, which just knows the spell - but they have better spells to learn than this one), but you have access to your entire spell list at all times. Worst comes to worst, cast command undead again and get them back under your control. AND, the spell only works on one undead. Dread Necromancers are minionmancers... the rest of your undead can take out one that was commanded by an enemy.

I don't think you have anything to worry about with the Command Undead spell.

[Venger]

I suppose my next big concern is what options are available for protecting my mindless undead from Command Undead?
It's a little scary that they get no save at all--it seems really precipitous to be making an 18 HD zombie badass if any third level wizard can come along and just yell "Sic 'em!" and I get eaten by my own mount.
What I can think of off the bat is to ask a party member to carry a wand of Dispel Magic, and to grab Awaken Undead when it becomes available.
What else can I do to keep them under my control?
spellblade of command undead



As an edge case note, does Command Undead become a de facto mind affecting spell when the target has an int score, thus allowing the opposed Cha checks?
no, of course not.

Magic Circle Against Good will help prevent mental control, though that would probably include your own commands.
are you referring to enchantment modified through song of the dead? it wouldn't block his rebuking or command undead since those aren't enchantment effects or mind-affecting.

[Segev]

all the information you received from Falontani is correct except the part about wresting control of undead.

those rules about charisma are for enchantment effects such as dominate person.

you do indeed bounce control back and forth until you're out of rebukes or control undeads or what have you.

if I steal command of an undead from you and you kill me (assuming for the purposes of this that he is rebuked or otherwise under indefinite command and not temporary command like a spell), the undead will continue to follow the orders I've issued indefinitely. they neither go uncontrolled nor revert. Once you rebuke or ensorcel him under your control, you can boss him around as normal. my death does not cause him to go uncontrolled.This isn't quite correct, either, because it fails to answer questions of when there are two active and conflicting sources of control. Command undead, for instance, doesn't end the control granted by animate dead; it's a second controlling spell also active.

Thus, either a CL check or the Charisma check is needed to establish whose conflicting commands work.

Moreover, my understanding of the Charisma check rules are that it's per-command. If Fred the Fighter is charmed by Ella the Enchantress and Bob the Bard, and Ella asks Fred to come to her parlor alone while Bob asks Fred to pick him up some snacks on his way back, assuming Ella doesn't do anything that prevents Fred from stopping by the food vendor (e.g. by keeping him from going back at all), no opposed checks occur. However, if Bob wands Fred to stay and finish their game of darts, while Ella wants Fred's undivided attentions in her boudoir, then they'd both have to roll opposed Cha checks to see whose influence gets Fred's compliance. And then, if they try again next round to give conflicting orders, they have to roll again.


spellblade of command undeadHow do spellblades work? I thought they were just cheaper versions of spell storing weapons, so don't actually increase how many castings you can maintain over the course of multiple days.

[BlackOnyx]

Magic Circle Against Good will help prevent mental control, though that would probably include your own commands.

are you referring to enchantment modified through song of the dead? it wouldn't block his rebuking or command undead since those aren't enchantment effects or mind-affecting.


At the tables I've played in, the interpretation has typically been a little different. The description for Protection from X spells are described as warding creatures from "mental control." The phrase "(including enchantment(charm) and enchantment(compulsion) effects)" is then included later in the description.


The question then becomes whether or not you interpret that list as all-inclusive. Does the broad term "mental control" only apply specifically to enchantment(charm) or enchantment(compulsion) effects, or are they simply specific examples under the wider umbrella of "mental control?" The wording can be seen as somewhat questionable, and I've seen a number of debates over different interpretations of RAW/RAI. The term "mental control" itself seems to be used in a number of ways between different spells and editions (3.0e vs. 3.5e), only adding to the confusion.


If you do not consider that list all inclusive, the term "mental control" could reasonably be applied to any spell that directly influences the creature's mind (vs. their environment). This could include rebuking and command/control undead *as well as* the charms and compulsions. You may want to consult your DM as to how he interprets it.


If he does agree that "mental control" refers to all forms of asserting mental control, Protection from Possession (from Ghostwalk) is a first level spell with a duration of 10/min lvl. Like Protection from X spells, it wards the creature from "mental" control, just without the alignment caveat. A useful spell, if your DM approves the material.



This isn't quite correct, either, because it fails to answer questions of when there are two active and conflicting sources of control.

Command undead, for instance, doesn't end the control granted by animate dead; it's a second controlling spell also active.

Thus, either a CL check or the Charisma check is needed to establish whose conflicting commands work.

Moreover, my understanding of the Charisma check rules are that it's per-command. If Fred the Fighter is charmed by Ella the Enchantress and Bob the Bard, and Ella asks Fred to come to her parlor alone while Bob asks Fred to pick him up some snacks on his way back, assuming Ella doesn't do anything that prevents Fred from stopping by the food vendor (e.g. by keeping him from going back at all), no opposed checks occur. However, if Bob wands Fred to stay and finish their game of darts, while Ella wants Fred's undivided attentions in her boudoir, then they'd both have to roll opposed Cha checks to see whose influence gets Fred's compliance. And then, if they try again next round to give conflicting orders, they have to roll again.


This was my interpretation as well. The "Multiple Mental Control Effects" section in the SRD explains that creatures can be controlled by multiple "mental control" effects simultaneously. Issues only arise when the orders are in conflict. Thus we have the opposed charisma checks.


This said, the more methods of mental control you have active on an undead, the more "chances" you have to assert your control. (Or, at the very least, this is how my table has played it.) If you successfully cast rebuke and command undead on an undead, you would have two avenues of control in an opposed charisma check with an enemy caster.

[Venger]

This isn't quite correct, either, because it fails to answer questions of when there are two active and conflicting sources of control. Command undead, for instance, doesn't end the control granted by animate dead; it's a second controlling spell also active.

Thus, either a CL check or the Charisma check is needed to establish whose conflicting commands work.

Right, I'm familiar with those rules, but my point was that since rebuke and command undead for example can affect mindless undead, then they aren't mental control, so I don't see why the rules on mental control spells would apply


Moreover, my understanding of the Charisma check rules are that it's per-command. If Fred the Fighter is charmed by Ella the Enchantress and Bob the Bard, and Ella asks Fred to come to her parlor alone while Bob asks Fred to pick him up some snacks on his way back, assuming Ella doesn't do anything that prevents Fred from stopping by the food vendor (e.g. by keeping him from going back at all), no opposed checks occur. However, if Bob wands Fred to stay and finish their game of darts, while Ella wants Fred's undivided attentions in her boudoir, then they'd both have to roll opposed Cha checks to see whose influence gets Fred's compliance. And then, if they try again next round to give conflicting orders, they have to roll again.

Your understanding is indeed correct and I have no disagreements on this front.


How do spellblades work? I thought they were just cheaper versions of spell storing weapons, so don't actually increase how many castings you can maintain over the course of multiple days.

You are mistaken.

A spellblade renders you immune to a single targeted spell, such as command undead. When someone zaps you with it, the weapon sucks it up and you can either let it disappear or zap someone else with it when it's your turn as a free action. Having one for dispel/greater dispel is a must for mid+ level play.


At the tables I've played in, the interpretation has typically been a little different. The description for Protection from X spells are described as warding creatures from "mental control." The phrase "(including enchantment(charm) and enchantment(compulsion) effects)" is then included later in the description.


The question then becomes whether or not you interpret that list as all-inclusive. Does the broad term "mental control" only apply specifically to enchantment(charm) or enchantment(compulsion) effects, or are they simply specific examples under the wider umbrella of "mental control?" The wording can be seen as somewhat questionable, and I've seen a number of debates over different interpretations of RAW/RAI. The term "mental control" itself seems to be used in a number of ways between different spells and editions (3.0e vs. 3.5e), only adding to the confusion.


If you do not consider that list all inclusive, the term "mental control" could reasonably be applied to any spell that directly influences the creature's mind (vs. their environment). This could include rebuking and command/control undead *as well as* the charms and compulsions. You may want to consult your DM as to how he interprets it.


If he does agree that "mental control" refers to all forms of asserting mental control, Protection from Possession (from Ghostwalk) is a first level spell with a duration of 10/min lvl. Like Protection from X spells, it wards the creature from "mental" control, just without the alignment caveat. A useful spell, if your DM approves the material.

There's no debate necessary there: charm and compulsions are examples, but the list is not exhaustive. Effects such as necrotic dominate, would be protected against despite being neither mind affecting nor a compulsion


This was my interpretation as well. The "Multiple Mental Control Effects" section in the SRD explains that creatures can be controlled by multiple "mental control" effects simultaneously. Issues only arise when the orders are in conflict. Thus we have the opposed charisma checks.


This said, the more methods of mental control you have active on an undead, the more "chances" you have to assert your control. (Or, at the very least, this is how my table has played it.) If you successfully cast rebuke and command undead on an undead, you would have two avenues of control in an opposed charisma check with an enemy caster.
My point is that since rebuke and command undead work on mindless undead, I don't think they're mental control, so the opposed cha check rule doesn't activate, and in the case of opposing orders, you'd just go with whoever exerted control most recently.

That said, if your table rules the opposed cha check rule activates, then having multiple avenues of control is a good belt and braces idea to keep control of your undead.

[The Viscount]

The rule about opposed Cha checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#multipleMentalControlEffects) for two opposed mental controls comes from the section on casting spells, which leads us to more than one possible interpretation.
1 Is that because this is only under the casting spells section, so would only apply to spells that offer mental control. I would follow this one. In this case, it would not come up for casting command undead on a rebuked undead. Commanding a rebuked undead to disobey its master would certainly be against its master and would provoke an opposed Cha check against the undead, as by the text of the spell. This holds true regardless of what interpretation you use.

2 Is that this is specific to "mental control" even if it isn't a spell. You will note that this phrase is used in describing rebuke undead, but not in animate dead. It could be argued that since command undead works like charm that it would be included. That being said, it functions completely differently for for mindless undead, so I'm not sure how much it holds up in that case. Animate dead is difficult to argue would be included in this list. In this situation If you read this interpretation, a protection from evil spell would suppress any rebuking for the duration but not prevent command undead, so not a desirable spell to use on your rebuked undead, but a means of protecting your undead from being rebuked.

That being said, let's focus on the question of someone using command undead on an undead under animate dead. I would say that "mental control" is only applicable using command undead on intelligent undead. We then have an undead who is affected by both spells, and each of the two opposed casters can issue commands, and the undead obeys whatever was the last command. Talking is a free action, which can only be done on your turn. This means that the two casters would go back and forth on their turns. A textually based answer tells us that a mindless undead under the effects of command undead can only be told simple instructions like "fight" or "stand still." This is noticeably absent from animate dead's description. It stands to reason that the animate dead caster could say "ignore all the commands of that other caster and kill them" which the undead would then honor. If this doesn't seem legal to you, here's an alternative. After issuing your instruction to kill them with animate dead, have the undead stop up their ears, or command them to create a lot of extra noise that prevents them from hearing the commands from the other caster, or use a spell like silence to prevent the undead from being able to hear the enemy.

You could sidestep the issue entirely by casting command undead yourself, and issuing a different command which would provoke the opposed Charisma check, provided you think you can win.

As Venger mentioned, spellblades against command undead are an effective protection if you have the money.

An aside about protecting undead from being rebuked: The best way to protect an undead from being hit by the "command" effect of rebuking is to use the "bolster" effect. This way, the enemy rebuker has to have a cleric level of at least 2X(your cleric level -3) in order to actually command an undead you command. So once you're above level 6 bolstering will stop anyone of your level from nabbing your undead.
Depending on your reading of multiple mental control effects, you might be entitled to an opposed Cha check if the enemy succeeded, since there's no rule that says an undead can't be under two masters at once.

[Warchon]

Not to stir the pot, but I feel that there is some conflation of "mental control" with "mind control."
Per the PHB, a skeleton (which is of course mindless) commanded through Rebuke Undead is "under the mental control" of the rebuker.
It seems pretty clear to me that this means the cleric is "mentally controlling" the undead, rather than "controlling the mental state of" the undead, because a skeleton literally does not have a mind to control.
It would seem to me then that the RAI would be to consider "mental control effects" as completely separate from--albeit often overlapping with--mind affecting or compulsion effects.
By comparison, Animate Dead specifies that the undead created "follow your spoken commands" and does not say anything about mental control.
This "voice activated" style of control would by this definition NOT be a mental control effect, because the caster is not doing it directly through his/her brain
Which means that Magic Circle Against X would protect against commanding through Rebuke (though possibly not against the lesser, cowering effect) but not help with Command Undead.
Feel free to point out if I've missed something here.

[Segev]

You are mistaken.

A spellblade renders you immune to a single targeted spell, such as command undead. When someone zaps you with it, the weapon sucks it up and you can either let it disappear or zap someone else with it when it's your turn as a free action. Having one for dispel/greater dispel is a must for mid+ level play. Ah, thanks for the correction.


My point is that since rebuke and command undead work on mindless undead, I don't think they're mental control, so the opposed cha check rule doesn't activate, and in the case of opposing orders, you'd just go with whoever exerted control most recently.

While this is admittedly leaning on DM rulings, it remains true that multiple sources of control over the "agency" of a creature require a means of resolving them when they come into conflict. If the rules on "mental control" don't apply to command undead and Command Undead (the spell and the cleric power, respectively), then there yet needs to be something that does. Using the opposed mental control rules works for this, if you can't think of a better one. (Opposed CL checks may also work.)