Fighter with a brain build?

[ZorroGames]

Okay, I see that there is a place in our games for a Fighter type (good damage, ability to absorp damage while casters do their thing,) but I think of many officers I served under who were both warriors and scholars. I want to emulate that model.

BLUF: not dump IN.

For this character I would step out of my Mountain Dwarf usual chassis but not so far to go beyond Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-elf, Half-orc, Halfling, Human (either,) and maybe Tiefling. Dragonborn out as are Kenku, Lizardfilk, and Tabaxi. Open to Aasimar, Firbolgs, Goliaths, and possibly Tritons. None of Volo’s monsterous PC races thank you.

What race/class builds within those guidelines would you suggest?

[nickl_2000]

I think the standard for a smart fighter is the High Elf Eldritch Knight build.

You get good synergy with int since it's your EK casting stat. The High Elf gives +2 to dex and +1 and one cantrip to int allowing you to take SCAG as your +1 book and Booming Blade from level one with a Dex build.



The Samurai would be another that would make sense from a historical standpoint. They certainly were known for the skill in art and intelligence outside of battle as well.

[Lombra]

I mean v-human with prodigy, and an INT not below 12 is already pretty smart. Plus you can play as smart or dumb as you like regardless of stats.

Battlemaster would fit best your view I think, with emphasis on battlefield control maneouvers.

[Specter]

High Elf Eldritch Knight, Sage background. Done and done.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I mean, Fighters in general can afford to put a good score in a secondary start without compromising their combat power. Eldritch Knight gives you an even better return.

If you want an interesting alternative, a Fighter 1/Abjurer Wizard can be surprisingly tanky with their ward, especially if you go with a deep Gnome and take their racial feat to cast Nondetection at will to refill it. Mystics can also be crazy tough Int-based guys, though they're UA.

[Unoriginal]

You can take any race and any subclass. Even Mountain Dwarf Brute, if you felt like it.

Despite what optimization threads might make it look like, a PC can be perfectly competent with a 14 or more in a non-essential stat.

That being said, Cavalier can fit what you want.


Or you could wait for the Warlord subclass which is being developed.

[DarkKnightJin]

I'm running a Vuman Fighter that's going EK, and I took the Skilled feat to get some tool profs I'm gonna need to make the character 'gimmick' of a traveling inventor that's working on his new weapon idea work out.

Starting at 1st level, Str at 16, Con at 14, with Dex, Int, and Wis at 12, and Cha at 8.
He's been pretty fun to play so far, and I hope I'll get to complete the character arc of perfecting his Charge Blade.

[smcmike]

A couple of levels of Knowledge Cleric can make any character a scholar.

[EvilAnagram]

I mean v-human with prodigy, and an INT not below 12 is already pretty smart. Plus you can play as smart or dumb as you like regardless of stats.

Battlemaster would fit best your view I think, with emphasis on battlefield control maneouvers.

Building on this, you can start with a 16, 10, 14, 12, 12, 11 and be a solid all-around fighter with plenty of smarts.

[Gryndle]

Okay, I see that there is a place in our games for a Fighter type (good damage, ability to absorp damage while casters do their thing,) but I think of many officers I served under who were both warriors and scholars. I want to emulate that model.

BLUF: not dump IN.

For this character I would step out of my Mountain Dwarf usual chassis but not so far to go beyond Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-elf, Half-orc, Halfling, Human (either,) and maybe Tiefling. Dragonborn out as are Kenku, Lizardfilk, and Tabaxi. Open to Aasimar, Firbolgs, Goliaths, and possibly Tritons. None of Volo’s monsterous PC races thank you.

What race/class builds within those guidelines would you suggest?

wait....you served under OFFICERS that had brains?

[KorvinStarmast]

Here's your smart Dwarf build, Zorro
Let's go point buy.

14 14 14 10 10 10 (27 points) changes to 14 14 13 12 10 10 (27 points)
Str 14 (16 w/ racial)
Dex 10
Con 14 (16 w/ racial)
Int 13
Wis 12
Ch 10

Skills:
Athletics
Persuasion
History/Investigation

That gets you closer to your intelligent officer model. I'd consider swapping the Wis and Ch, that's up to you. What it also allows you to do is multi class into wizard later on if you have a desire to do so. Or, get the Int resilient feat later in life.

[ZorroGames]

wait....you served under OFFICERS that had brains?

LOL Active Air Force (902x0) then later Army Reserves (76Yankee.)

Body failed me so, after a break in service, became DOD civilian Cartographer (later Intel agency.)

I did have this brand new RN 2nd Lt. salute a SAC general with her left hand while escorting to Records for in-processing... :smallfrown:

[ZorroGames]

Here's your smart Dwarf build, Zorro
Let's go point buy.

14 14 14 10 10 10 (27 points) changes to 14 14 13 12 10 10 (27 points)
Str 14 (16 w/ racial)
Dex 10
Con 14 (16 w/ racial)
Int 13
Wis 12
Ch 10

Skills:
Athletics
Persuasion
History/Investigation

That gets you closer to your intelligent officer model. I'd consider swapping the Wis and Ch, that's up to you. What it also allows you to do is multi class into wizard later on if you have a desire to do so. Or, get the Int resilient feat later in life.

To quote my youngest, “Nice!”

[GlenSmash!]

The Samurai would be another that would make sense from a historical standpoint. They certainly were known for the skill in art and intelligence outside of battle as well.

This is true, and yet I find a Battlemaster makes a better historical Samurai than the Actual Samurai subclass. Of course, YMMV,

[nickl_2000]

This is true, and yet I find a Battlemaster makes a better historical Samurai than the Actual Samurai subclass. Of course, YMMV,

True in the sense of mechanics, but remember who we are talking about in the OP. ZorroGames is much more interested in RP/fluff than the average person on here. Hence why I made that particular suggestion.

[GlenSmash!]

True in the sense of mechanics, but remember who we are talking about in the OP. ZorroGames is much more interested in RP/fluff than the average person on here. Hence why I made that particular suggestion.

Good point.

And since I should contribute to the overall thread.

While an Eldritch Knight can dump in and not use spells that rely on it, that strategy has a big drawback: counterspell.

An EK that want's to counterspell should will want a high Int. 14+ for sure.

[Willie the Duck]

Everyone seems to have the same basic ideas. A fighter only really needs one combat stat plus a decent Con, and the rest is gravy, so their are well positioned to 'also have' that one stat you want for RP purposes. The EK or a multiclass fighter-wizard gain a mechanical advantage to high Int (as does a fighter with Ritual Caster: wizard feat, which is awesome except for the situation the OP describes where there are already 'casters do[ing] their thing'). The Battle Master and Samurai are thematically appropriate. Or heck, just have a fighter (even a Champion) with a decent Int and a scholar or soldier background and declare them an officer. That's what RP is for, after all. The mechanics can take care of themselves.

[Asmotherion]

Eldritch Knight seems like the way to go.

Some tips:

-Shadow Blade, when it becomes avalable to you, uses your regular Martial Stat, since it is treated as a Versalite Weapon. So, it's an amazing spell, reguardless if you're running a Str Build or Dex Build, or even weapon specialisation, since it can even profit from Sharpshooter (has the thrown Property).
-Self-Buffs can make your Fighter a good Gish, wile keeping your Int to a 12-14 for RP purposes. Spell Attacks require a slightly higher minimum of 16 for maximising effectiveness, but you can still have some good options with a 14, that will reliably enough land on target. Most Save or Sucks will have a very small chance to land their full effect with a spellcasting ability lower than 18, landing only half the effect most of the time (for example, your fireball will be doing 14 damage average more often than 28).
-Booming Blade and GFB can be used effectivelly with Shadow Blade.

[opaopajr]

Already did a Fighter Champion Sage (Specialty: Librarian) Standard Human in AL (season one). Once I got the Headband of Intelligence and a chance to invest downtime to fix Phlan's Library, I retired the character for it had reached satori. :smallcool: ... If I continued the PC, I was thinking about taking the feat Magic Initiate for the cantrips Mending and Messaging, so as to repair books and to 'shhh' people in the library. The 1st level spell is needless extra, maybe Comprehend Languages so as to curl up with a foreign language book on downtime days.

[CircleOfTheRock]

A couple of levels of Knowledge Cleric can make any character a scholar.
Not only, however, does it make them a (part) full caster of a spell list that isn't really thematic for most kinds of Fighters, and the roleplaying gets a bit weird if that's not the kind of character you want to play (you're forgetting - a Knowledge Cleric is a scholar who is a servant of a god) but, in any case, the Knowledge Cleric is a bit of a weird concept in the first place - their spellcasting runs off WIS, after all.

[Arkhios]

Aside the already suggested Abjurer multiclass on a fighter (either Battle Master or Eldritch Knight works, tbh) War Wizard would be very thematically appropriate for a brainiac warrior.

[EvilAnagram]

I love that in this forum, when someone asks how to build a fighter as a competent commander people suggest building a wizard multiclass. How does that improve on the theme? "Well, he could cast magic."

The theme is gritty Fighter with brains.

[Lombra]

I love that in this forum, when someone asks how to build a fighter as a competent commander people suggest building a wizard multiclass. How does that improve on the theme? "Well, he could cast magic."

The theme is gritty Fighter with brains.

Yup, people seem to forget that one can be smart and mundane at the same time. I think battlemaster fits the theme better for this concept.

[strangebloke]

My 2 CP, having just gone through this with my Paladin.

Skills, expertise, background features and class features do a lot more to solidify your status as a "shmart guy" than having a +2 to a mental stat. That said, fighters only need one good stat, really, and they get so many ASIs that over the course of a long campaign you almost can't help getting at least one pretty good mental stat.

The relevant backgrounds are obvious. Sage is my favorite.

Feats to consider:
Everyone's friend: expertise to two skills.
Prodigy: smorgasbord of a skill, a tool, and expertise.
Skilled

Multiclassing:
Hexblade 1 for the pure charisma build

Knowledge cleric 1 for expertise in two skills and guidance which makes you really good at out of combat skill use.

Rogue 1 expertise in two skills.

Subclass choice:
Battlemaster: tactician powers. Moves allies around. Uses int.
Eldritch Knight: uses int more than BM. Has more of a scholarly cover.
Samurai: a few skill proficiencies.
Cavalier: AFB, but I believe it uses int for some abilities. Definitely an officer vibe.

[Specter]

I love that in this forum, when someone asks how to build a fighter as a competent commander people suggest building a wizard multiclass. How does that improve on the theme? "Well, he could cast magic."

The theme is gritty Fighter with brains.

But he never said 'gritty' either. If Eldritch Knight could fit his fluff, then it's mechanically superior to other options because you can use the INT for something other than ability checks.

Also, Rogue shouldn't be put off the table: Expertise is all about being smart, and what is Sneak Attack if not a clever way to exploit opponents?

[EvilAnagram]

But he never said 'gritty' either. If Eldritch Knight could fit his fluff, then it's mechanically superior to other options because you can use the INT for something other than ability checks.

Also, Rogue shouldn't be put off the table: Expertise is all about being smart, and what is Sneak Attack if not a clever way to exploit opponents?
He specified that he wanted the ability to deal and absorb damage "while casters do their thing." Saying, "I know, be a wizard," flies in the face of that, and I'm not sure a Rogue dip does much more for him.

[Arkhios]

I love that in this forum, when someone asks how to build a fighter as a competent commander people suggest building a wizard multiclass. How does that improve on the theme? "Well, he could cast magic."

The theme is gritty Fighter with brains.

Fair point.

Although, to my defense I thought it was an accepted solution and only suggested an alternative for Abjurer.

If homebrew is allowed, I beckon OP to take a look at the Warlord, which would fit for the concept like a glove.
Nevermind, just saw his signature.

[Zonugal]

What about something like this?

Rehcra the Swift
High Elf ‘Arcane Archer’ Fighter 8 with the Sage background
Medium humanoid (elven), Chaotic Good
Armor class 18 (studded leather armor & a Cloak of Protection)
Hit points 80 (8d10+16)
Speed 30 ft.
---
Str 8, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 12, Cha 10
---
Saving Throws Strength +3 and Constitution +6
Skills Acrobatics +8, Arcana +7, History +7, Nature +7, Perception +4, & Stealth +8
Feats Elven Accuracy & Sharpshooter
Senses passive Perception 14; darkvision 60ft.
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, & Sylvan
Challenge 8
---
Special Abilities
Racial Abilities: Cantrip (True Strike), Darkvision (60ft.) Elf Weapon Training, Fey Ancestry, Keen Sense, Trance
Background Abilities: Researcher
Class Abilities: Fighting Style (Archery), Second Wind, Action Surge, Arcane Archer Lore (Arcane & Prestidigitation), Arcane Shot (twice/rest; Grasping Arrow, Piercing Arrow & Seeking Arrow), Extra Attack, Curving Shot, & Magic Arrow
---
Actions
Short sword. Melee weapon attack: +8 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d6+5) bludgeoning damage; finesse, light
Longbow. Ranged weapon attack: +10 to hit, range 30 ft./90 ft., one target. Hit: 9 (1d8+5) piercing damage; ammunition (range 150/600), heavy, two-handed
--
Wizard Spells -- Rehcra’s Wizard spellcasting ability is Intelligence-based (spell save DC 15)
Cantrips Known (at will) -- Prestidigitation & True Strike
--
Equipment: a belt pouch (10 gp), a Cloak of Protection, a set of common clothes, an explorer's pack, a Headband of Intellect, a longbow with a quiver of forty arrows, a Potion of Healing, two short swords, and an Unbreakable Arrow

[ZorroGames]

m
Fair point.

Although, to my defense I thought it was an accepted solution and only suggested an alternative for Abjurer.

If homebrew is allowed, I beckon OP to take a look at the Warlord, which would fit for the concept like a glove.
Nevermind, just saw his signature.

I know, just waiting to see this Warlord thing (that after AD&D? or is my memory just bad?) looks like because so many people seem to love the class. It may be something I could really hook onto!

[EvilAnagram]

I know, just waiting to see this Warlord thing (that after AD&D? or is my memory just bad?) looks like because so many people seem to love the class. It may be something I could really hook onto!

It was a 4e class. They could attack at the front line while healing allies and giving them free movement and attacks.

[opaopajr]

Half-orc comes with a free Intimidation skill, darkvision, pop-up w/ 1 HP, and bonus weapon die on a crit. It'd make a solid TWF Champion Courtier.

A lot of those Light keyword weapons are more permissable, or concealable, in polite company. TWF style is to trigger half-orc special more often, helps to choose something throwable. And that pop-up w/ 1 HP is great in any noble duel.

And Intimidation goes well with Courtier's Insight & Persuasion. Throw in History to show knowledge, select anything else you want (I'd choose Perception), and you're good to go. You'd at least have the tools to look cultured and act clever in social situations. With Intimidation, Insight, Persuasion, Perception, and History, and two extra languages, if you play smart you can be a ferocious force for social spying and plots -- especially since you'd be doubly underestimated as a Fighter and Half-Orc.

[ZorroGames]

Just want to say thank you for all the ideas, a lot to review again before I make a decision on the character. Despite being a crotchety old grognard I really do aporeciate being made to think about exactly what I want the character to represent.

[smcmike]

Not only, however, does it make them a (part) full caster of a spell list that isn't really thematic for most kinds of Fighters, and the roleplaying gets a bit weird if that's not the kind of character you want to play (you're forgetting - a Knowledge Cleric is a scholar who is a servant of a god) but, in any case, the Knowledge Cleric is a bit of a weird concept in the first place - their spellcasting runs off WIS, after all.

I don’t see anything unthematic about a couple of levels of knowledge Cleric casting on a scholar/soldier. Lots of Cleric spells actually work pretty well in the context of commanding troops. Command, for instance, is given new meaning when you are trying to send raw recruits over the top into a battle. In terms of worship, it’s hardly rare to for a soldier to rely on faith, and fluff is mutable anyways.

The one way this idea doesn’t fit with the OP is that it does require Wisdom, not Intelligence. On the other hand, a bit of wisdom + Expertise in Intelligence skills does a pretty good job of mimicking Intelligence. The best people in most fields are actually those that work the hardest, not the ones with the most raw intelligence.

[EvilAnagram]

I don’t see anything unthematic about a couple of levels of knowledge Cleric casting on a scholar/soldier.
Really? Because I think, "religious scholar devoted to a specific god or pantheon," is kind of missing from OP's description. It's a pretty big change to the character.

[Willie the Duck]

Really? Because I think, "religious scholar devoted to a specific god or pantheon," is kind of missing from OP's description. It's a pretty big change to the character.

Okay, so are you complaining about the fact that they are a spellcaster or because they are religious? Make up your mind what your criticism is.

Pretty obviously people are suggesting it because it is a cheap way to get expertise in multiple knowledge-based skills. If someone had suggested a 1-level rogue dip for the same (despite OP never mentioning wanted a roguish character) would you be so cranky on the role violation?

[EvilAnagram]

Okay, so are you complaining about the fact that they are a spellcaster or because they are religious? Make up your mind what your criticism is.
Both are missing from the description in the OP, so I don't really have to. It's a poor suggestion considering the original requirements for multiple reasons.


Pretty obviously people are suggesting it because it is a cheap way to get expertise in multiple knowledge-based skills. If someone had suggested a 1-level rogue dip for the same (despite OP never mentioning wanted a roguish character) would you be so cranky on the role violation?
My problem with this justification is that this isn't a cheap way to get expertise. It requires boosting Wis to 13 (which doesn't help the original concept) and multiclassing into a religious-based spellcaster (which are elements that don't quite gel with the original concept). If he wanted to build a Liu Bei-inspired warrior built around piety and religious devotion in addition to military might, the suggestion would make sense. He just wants a clever Fighter-type, though, making this unnecessary and unhelpful.

[smcmike]

Both are missing from the description in the OP, so I don't really have to. It's a poor suggestion considering the original requirements for multiple reasons.


My problem with this justification is that this isn't a cheap way to get expertise. It requires boosting Wis to 13 (which doesn't help the original concept) and multiclassing into a religious-based spellcaster (which are elements that don't quite gel with the original concept). If he wanted to build a Liu Bei-inspired warrior built around piety and religious devotion in addition to military might, the suggestion would make sense. He just wants a clever Fighter-type, though, making this unnecessary and unhelpful.

It was just a thought, man. He asked for a warrior/scholar, and a knowledge cleric fulfills the second half of that equation as well as anything in the game. You’re free not to like it - there are plenty of other good suggestions here. Chill.

[strangebloke]

It was just a thought, man. He asked for a warrior/scholar, and a knowledge cleric fulfills the second half of that equation as well as anything in the game. You’re free not to like it - there are plenty of other good suggestions here. Chill.
I'll add that anyone with less than three levels is really only at the "apprentice" level. So yes he's a scholar devoted to a deity... Or he was for a few years before he joined the military. As to the mental requirements, I find that wisdom and intelligence are interchangeable outside of mechanics, and that a brainy character is usually best represented by having both decent wisdom and intelligence.

[Willie the Duck]

Let's just move on. The rest of us can consider it a ludicrous hill to die upon, but he's right, he doesn't have to do anything. Whatever.
Regardless, there are options now (at least for humans, half-orcs, and half-elves) to get expertise in specific skills without class dips. So if you want to, you can approach the concept of 'expertise in knowledge to emulate intellectual warrior' with a pure fighter build (especially since they do get the extra feats).

[2D8HP]

....Rogue shouldn't be put off the table: Expertise is all about being smart, and what is Sneak Attack if not a clever way to exploit opponents?


I really, really like Fighter/Rogues (really), so of course I second this suggestion, but I came to the thread to suggest the City Watch Investigator background from the SCAG, and basically play Sam Vimes from the Discworld novels.

A lot of DM's use Investigation rather than Perception checks for searching for traps, and I really don't see why the skill can't be stretched further.

Keep in mind that custom backgrounds are in the PHB so swapping out skills should be valid for any Background.

[EvilAnagram]

It was just a thought, man. He asked for a warrior/scholar, and a knowledge cleric fulfills the second half of that equation as well as anything in the game. You’re free not to like it - there are plenty of other good suggestions here. Chill.

... I'm sorry if you feel I'm angry or wish to cause offense, but all I did was say that I don't like your idea in supply reasons why I don't like it. If that's too confrontational for you, then I don't know what to say. Maybe try not to put so much of yourself into builds you suggest on forums?

[smcmike]

... I'm sorry if you feel I'm angry or wish to cause offense, but all I did was say that I don't like your idea in supply reasons why I don't like it. If that's too confrontational for you, then I don't know what to say. Maybe try not to put so much of yourself into builds you suggest on forums?

Me: Hey, you could try X.
You: That is a poor idea, and your suggestion is unhelpful and unnecessary.
Me: That seems a bit much, man.
You: What a snowflake!

[The Jack]

Battlemaster, Battlemaster or battlemaster. I'm playing such a character now.

Just don't be a champion. any other subclass is ok, but I don't think EK is really what you want.

Brainy strategies;
A:
Pick polearm master as a feat.
Take either push attack or fancy footwork (this is the only reason I'd consider taking footwork)
-Hit the guy with reach, move out of range, get a reaction when they try to move into range.
-If the enemy gets into reach; Superiority die yourself out of range, attack, get the reaction when they move back in.

B:
Take a shield, Live for your comrades.
Protect your allies, be a top bloke.
Take many a moves that helps your allies.

C
Go ranged.
Take all the moves that control the enemy.


Artisans tools
Cartography- Maps are great
Carpentry- design seige engines, bridges, fortifications, cover.
Alchemy- Explode things
Other things might be good for morale.

Magic initiate feat.
Cleric:
Guidance, bless- boost allies. Fluff it as "great leadership"
Thaumaturgy- Bark orders and engage in diplomacy from half a battlefield away.

Wizard
Mold earth- Create trenches and help fortifications quickly and easily.
Find Familiar- Best scout ever, though you can get this from RC
Dancing lights- You might want to play a human for the feat, and so lights are needed, but

Ritual caster- wizard.
Find Familiar and the god-fortification of tiny hut. There are other good things too, but these are amazing.

There's a feat for inspiring speeches, but I don't care for it.