What does a 20th level rogue with 6 dex look like?

[Rfkannen]

It just occurred to me, all of the rogue abilities storywise are sort of about being dexterous, evasion makes it so you carefully avoid the attack, sneak attack is about perfectly finding the right place to hit, but you can totally have a rogue who rolled a 6 for dex reach level 20, but I can't actually picture how a person like that would work story wise, how do all the specialty abilities about finesse work with someone who is not at all capable of finesse. In particular thinking about a member of the theif subclass. Like, what does that person doing there thing look like?

What if the character has a 6 in all stats?

Tldr. What would a level 20 theif rogue with 6 dex look like in the fiction of the game?

[N810]

"What does a 20th level rogue with 6 dex look like?"
like this... :frown:

[Seppo87]

Proficiency bonus will make him nimble

[nickl_2000]

I think the best way to do this would to represent the thief as an old man/woman. They have gained all kinds of knowledge over years of life as a thief, but outside of brief moment of quick movement their body no longer lets them be as agile and nimble as they used to be. Plus they tire easily.

[ImproperJustice]

Or kind of an overweight, middle aged guy that has a suprisingly good instinct for Skullduggery.

Kinda like Verin, one of Matt Cauthon’s cohorts from the Wheel of Time. He was this overweight horse theif that people often underestimated due to his stature and berring, but could easily disappear when no one was looking with a pair of prize horses.

[MaxWilson]

It just occurred to me, all of the rogue abilities storywise are sort of about being dexterous, evasion makes it so you carefully avoid the attack, sneak attack is about perfectly finding the right place to hit, but you can totally have a rogue who rolled a 6 for dex reach level 20, but I can't actually picture how a person like that would work story wise, how do all the specialty abilities about finesse work with someone who is not at all capable of finesse. In particular thinking about a member of the theif subclass. Like, what does that person doing there thing look like?

What if the character has a 6 in all stats?

Tldr. What would a level 20 theif rogue with 6 dex look like in the fiction of the game?

Like Adele Mundy from David Drake's RCN series, only instead of being klutzy-but-a-crack-shot-and-skilled-hacker, they're klutzy but (depending on Expertise choices) good at palming cards, reading faces, and anticipating Fireballs in time to dive to the floor. They may not be particularly good at getting through enemy defenses and landing a blow, but they are good at identifying weaks like joints and throats, and when they do get through enemy defenses with a dagger, a quick flick of the wrist and a twisting motion (like using a melon baller) scoops out a dollop of flesh or a length of spinal cord.

[Dimers]

They could be focused on Strength and be quite successful as a warrior, particularly with Expertise in Athletics, controlling their enemy very directly. They could have lots of Charisma and great skills in that department and be a Mob don. They could have high Wisdom and be the spotter, the fagin, the fence.

[MeeposFire]

6 in every stat would be painful but if it was just 6 in dex and we can get more standard ability scores for the rest it could work OK.

You would want to spend ASIs on getting up to heavy armor and go str primary. You would wear full plate and use a sneak attack weapon using str.

Evasion makes the lower dex save not so problematic and expertise could either be used to make a dex skill be usable or you could go for less traditional rogue skills.

Could be a bit of fun but I would need to be able to get high str.

[tieren]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRO5h2H63kBth_A0EmcwISHUWezDVBMY Qu7JhvHpZUcqROY02qo

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3pGuaWEOV68IrOBSw86Qa2PdEsjWDD Z-gZBfttsVFWYRg_-Z3lA

[Deadandamnation]

Ahah, 20th lvl characters usually are npcs in my gaming experience (I've reached 20 only once, in 10 years of DnD campaigns).

Btw an old old Human Rogue could be that, when he was young he was the best and was agile like a moongoose now he isn't but that don't make him less deadly.

All his mental stats should be 20 or higher, and his dagger never leave his side anyway ready to get out and cut a throat (strike of luck make him deadly when he need the most) He got a huge collection of magical trinkets, devices and such stealed in an entire life of rubbery.

He should have a cohort strong and protective that look at him as a god to worship.
A high charisma and expertise, make that more than possibile.

So possibilities are infinite. What I have more difficult to figure is something like a Bard lvl 20 with 6 in Charisma...A mr Scrooge probably, but hard to imagine.

[Tanarii]

They could be focused on Strength and be quite successful as a warrior, particularly with Expertise in Athletics, controlling their enemy very directly. They could have lots of Charisma and great skills in that department and be a Mob don. They could have high Wisdom and be the spotter, the fagin, the fence.


6 in every stat would be painful but if it was just 6 in dex and we can get more standard ability scores for the rest it could work OK.

You would want to spend ASIs on getting up to heavy armor and go str primary. You would wear full plate and use a sneak attack weapon using str.

Evasion makes the lower dex save not so problematic and expertise could either be used to make a dex skill be usable or you could go for less traditional rogue skills.

Could be a bit of fun but I would need to be able to get high str.
That was my first thought. Surviving low and even medium levels would be an issue. But a Str 15+ (plus racial?) Dex 6 rolled Rogue would be fine after level 8 with Full Plate. Or even level 4 with (probably) Splint if you started as a Human(v) or Mountain Dwarf. You'd still be plenty effective at stabbing things with your rapier or shortsword, although for Ranged Attacks you'd be effectively limited to Daggers or Darts. (For the latter, Finesse allows you to use Str instead of Dex, even though it's a ranged weapon.) And you would get all the normal skill goodies like Expertise and Reliable Talent.

Bonus ... you can even swing those magical Longswords you're proficient in without taking a (typically) 5-6 point hit in attack & damage!

[MeeposFire]

That was my first thought. Surviving low and even medium levels would be an issue. But a Str 15+ (plus racial?) Dex 6 rolled Rogue would be fine after level 8 with Full Plate. Or even level 4 with (probably) Splint if you started as a Human(v) or Mountain Dwarf. You'd still be plenty effective at stabbing things with your rapier or shortsword, although for Ranged Attacks you'd be effectively limited to Daggers or Darts. (For the latter, Finesse allows you to use Str instead of Dex, even though it's a ranged weapon.) And you would get all the normal skill goodies like Expertise and Reliable Talent.

Bonus ... you can even swing those magical Longswords you're proficient in without taking a (typically) 5-6 point hit in attack & damage!

Sadly that longsword cannot deal sneak attack damage so not quite as cool as it should be.

[Deadandamnation]

Sadly that longsword cannot deal sneak attack damage so not quite as cool as it should be.

Probably he would say rapier using STR. Rogue aren't longsword proficent...are they?

[Tanarii]

Sadly that longsword cannot deal sneak attack damage so not quite as cool as it should be.
There's no particular reason it "should" deal sneak attack damage.


Probably he would say rapier using STR. Rogue aren't longsword proficent...are they?
Absolutely they are. Probably because its traditional, IMO.

And Str rogues can totally use them without losing a bunch of (relative) hit compared to a Rapier.

They just can't sneak attack with them. So it's still usually sub-par to use them, even if you're a Str rogue. But might be worth it for a cool enough magical sword. Or if you can't sneak attack anyway for some reason.

[Crgaston]

Or kind of an overweight, middle aged guy that has a suprisingly good instinct for Skullduggery.

Kinda like Verin, one of Matt Cauthon’s cohorts from the Wheel of Time. He was this overweight horse theif that people often underestimated due to his stature and berring, but could easily disappear when no one was looking with a pair of prize horses.

His name is Vanin. Verin is an Aes Sedai. But good example! He would be a fun character to play.

[Mikal]

Like nothing because a rogue wouldn't make it to level 2, let alone 20 with a 6 dex, unless the dm fudged stuff.

[MeeposFire]

There's no particular reason it "should" deal sneak attack damage.


Absolutely they are. Probably because its traditional, IMO.

And Str rogues can totally use them without losing a bunch of (relative) hit compared to a Rapier.

They just can't sneak attack with them. So it's still usually sub-par to use them, even if you're a Str rogue. But might be worth it for a cool enough magical sword. Or if you can't sneak attack anyway for some reason.

While not really part of this conversation if they thought the rogue should have the prof with the weapon because of history the weapon should be usable for sneak attack/backstab because historically in the game it always has until base 4e (and even then they later created a feat to allow it so really only 5e does not allow it).

Also as a rogue there is really no point of using a long sword even if you are str based. You might as well use a rapier and call it a day. Even used two handed you only get one attack per round so not even close to being worth it unless you have a special version that allows sneak attack. I mean what are you going to do sheath your better weapon and draw and slash with a long sword on the (hopefully) rare time that you cannot get sneak attack damage?

[JellyPooga]

Like nothing because a rogue wouldn't make it to level 2, let alone 20 with a 6 dex, unless the dm fudged stuff.

Why not? This thread ia basically a bunch of people saying "Str Rogue is a thing" and it is. Yes, your "traditional" Rogue is very Dex focused, but by no means does that mean Dex is necessary for a Rogue. Technically, with Dex Save proficiency and Expertise, Rogues are less reliant on Dex than many other Classes.

[Raif]

Why not? This thread ia basically a bunch of people saying "Str Rogue is a thing" and it is. Yes, your "traditional" Rogue is very Dex focused, but by no means does that mean Dex is necessary for a Rogue. Technically, with Dex Save proficiency and Expertise, Rogues are less reliant on Dex than many other Classes.

I think because the OP stated "What if the character has a 6 in all stats?"

Just a 6? Probably OK if he had higher other stats, 6 in everything? Dude/dudette is dead.

[Tanarii]

Even with the only 6 being in Dex, which was the main scenario posited in the OP, it's still going to be tough to survive. A Str-rogue woth Dex 6 starts with AC 9 (Leather minus 2), and needs to get within 20 ft to attack, and into melee after throwing the two daggers the starting package comes with. Getting past first level is going to be tough without some DM or party hand-holding.

[Droodicus]

He'd look like a tortle

[MeeposFire]

Even with the only 6 being in Dex, which was the main scenario posited in the OP, it's still going to be tough to survive. A Str-rogue woth Dex 6 starts with AC 9 (Leather minus 2), and needs to get within 20 ft to attack, and into melee after throwing the two daggers the starting package comes with. Getting past first level is going to be tough without some DM or party hand-holding.

Essentially the easiest way to go would be to go mountain dwarf for medium armor (nice +2 to str as well nice) or start variant human and take moderately armored (sweet a shield). Then at some later point pick up heavy armor via feat.

Still not great but slightly better but it does force you into certain racial combos but yea going with most races would take a bit more effort to make it work.

[Tanarii]

Agreed. Also most DMs aren't going to force you to take exactly the starting equipment package, and nothing else. At the very least you can load up on Darts and try to keep a Fighter or Cleric between you can the enemy as much as possible.

I mean, Wizards are almost always AC 10-12 or less. And sometimes they even manage to survive level 1. Although I'm always a little surprised when it happens. :smallamused:

[Angelalex242]

A 6 dex rogue?

Basically, Marvel's Kingpin. Or Jabba the Hutt.

Take a guy with really high mental stats, he's telling the Dex 20 guys under him who to steal from and who to kill.

[opaopajr]

Depends on how you want it to look like! :smallcool:

Honestly, any lvl 20 character is going to be a force to reckon with, whichever pillar or pillars it focuses on.

The big challenge for any PC is "can you, will you, ever get there?" And that answer is mostly "No." Most campaigns nowadays don't play that constantly AND thoroughly. Often there's a lot of skipping, and GM freebie sprinkles atop! :smalltongue:

So this is just an intellectual exercise. Which means just about any 20th lvl character can be made. So go for broke! Imagine your craziest ideas! It means roughly the same.

I was cooking up an example that was going to be "Point Buy" with nothing going into DEX. But then I realized it's too easy. If we are just writing up a 20th lvl PC, then anything can be "viable" because it already reached "end game." Sure I was taking Magic Initiate (Druid: Cantrip - Magic Stone, Control Fire. 1st - Fairie Fire), Actor, Keen Mind, Linguist, Observant, and Tough. But even then it becomes such a Social and Exploration monster that combat's an afterthought.

The big challenge is dealing with a low AC due to no light or medium armor being unaffected by DEX. I still think Padded Armor should offer a flat AC 11 no DEX, Disadv on Stealth. But even then, just use caution, concealment, and cover and you should be fine. Besides, once you get Cunning Action, you should be able to run away from most threats you cannot handle.

Biggest tip, if you are trying to game DEX 6 from 1st to 20th would be Variant Human with Magic Initiate: Druid. That Magic Stone gives you a magical ranged weapon attack (use a sling as needed as per GM judgment) which triggers Sneak Attack. Once you got that and some cover, you're golden. Keep your distance and support your party, be they PCs or Skilled Hirelings.

It's not all that hard. :smallsmile: Not combat optimal, but not everything has to be. A PC cannot be 'perfect' in all pillars, nor should be.

[Daithi]

He probably looks a lot like Santa Claus. You thought elves made all those toys?
Nope --- Santa stole them.

Seriously, I have a hard time imagining a 20th level Rogue with a 6 DEX. I'm thinking even Santa has better than a 6 DEX.

[G mayes]

I can totally see a thuggish rogue. If you've played ghost recon wildlands, el sueno. Needs heavy protection. Big on intimidation, smart and charismatic. But not much for fighting. Understands the criminal word and has the skills to do the criminal things, but just rises to the top through sheer force of will and luck.

[2D8HP]

I think the best way to do this would to represent the thief as an old man/woman. They have gained all kinds of knowledge over years of life as a thief, but outside of brief moment of quick movement their body no longer lets them be as agile and nimble as they used to be. Plus they tire easily.


Or kind of an overweight, middle aged guy that has a suprisingly good instinct for Skullduggery.....


I so very much identify with those descriptions.


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRO5h2H63kBth_A0EmcwISHUWezDVBMY Qu7JhvHpZUcqROY02qo

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3pGuaWEOV68IrOBSw86Qa2PdEsjWDD Z-gZBfttsVFWYRg_-Z3lA


I imagine that Inspector Clouseau would also have low INT and WIS, but have the "Lucky" Feat.


Anyway, for a boost to Initiative, the Swashbuckler subclass uses their CHA mod as well as DEX.