How does resting in a dungeon make sense?

[sorcererlover]

You're raiding a temple of goblin cultists led by a goblin cleric. You take out 1/4 of the goblins and then you rest in the temple. Repeat four times to clear the dungeon.

All the while I'm thinking why doesn't every goblin in every room surround and kill the PCs while they rest?

Undead tombs make sense because you awaken the undead and take em out at your own pace, but raiding the base of sentient organized creatures?

So how does resting in a dungeon make sense?

[DarkSoul]

It doesn't. Last time my players tried it (a dungeon full of wights and ghouls) the undead found the room they were resting in and started to wall it up.

[RoboEmperor]

It doesn't. Last time my players tried it (a dungeon full of wights and ghouls) the undead found the room they were resting in and started to wall it up.

Why didn't the undead just outright attack them?

[Menzath]

Why attack mortals with a lifespan when you can just seal them up and check back in a decade or two? I mean you are undead.

And as for sentients that are alive I would assume that unless you have a watch and fortify where you sleep, you will get jumped when you rest.

[Venger]

You're raiding a temple of goblin cultists led by a goblin cleric. You take out 1/4 of the goblins and then you rest in the temple. Repeat four times to clear the dungeon.

All the while I'm thinking why doesn't every goblin in every room surround and kill the PCs while they rest?

Undead tombs make sense because you awaken the undead and take em out at your own pace, but raiding the base of sentient organized creatures?

So how does resting in a dungeon make sense?

despite the strawman constructed by people who don't like the 15 minute adventuring day, "resting in a dungeon" doesn't mean everyone just falls asleep in the middle of the hallway.

You'd find a dead end and barricade yourselves in and set a guard or alarm, or just sleep in a rope trick or similar, like normal people.

If your gm doesn't feel like allowing any of those options and you need to rest to regain spells or hp or what have you, it's customary for pcs to take watch to look out for bad guys while the others rest.

[Elkad]

Obviously you don't rest in the main hallway. Even a Rope Trick might not be safe there.

Most dungeons tend to have a disused corner, secret room, or just somewhere nobody else will go because it isn't safe.
So you tiptoe past the yellow mold, or squeeze past the rockfall, or kill the otyugh in his hole, and camp there.

[Venger]

kill the otyugh in his hole, and camp there.

then hang out there for a week, drop 3000gp out of a hole in your pocket, and waddle out with free iron will

[sorcererlover]

My question is why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they rest?

I'm reading Slaughtergarde and it says when PCs rest, only a small band of goblins attack the PCs instead of everyone in the entire building.

[Nifft]

My question is why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they rest?

Why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when the PCs invade the dungeon?

[Venger]

My question is why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they rest?

Why doesn't every creature in the whole world group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they go outside?

[Celestia]

Why doesn't every creature in the whole world group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they go outside?
Man, could you imagine the XP gains?

[sorcererlover]

Why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when the PCs invade the dungeon?

Yeah this too. If PCs invade the base of operations of an organization, why don't every man available raise the alarms and group together to take out the PCs?

[Venger]

Man, could you imagine the XP gains?

I mean one of them would have to be a first level dragonfire adept, but it would be pretty sweet, assuming you waive that stupid "you can only level up one level at a time" rule


Yeah this too. If PCs invade the base of operations of an organization, why don't every man available raise the alarms and group together to take out the PCs?

That reminds me of when I ran expedition to castle ravenloft and the second the pcs entered the castle, every single monster in the whole building grouped together and instantly attacked them at once.

[Nifft]

That reminds me of when I ran expedition to castle ravenloft and the second the pcs entered the castle, every single monster in the whole building grouped together and instantly attacked them at once.

After that fight, was it still somehow unsafe to rest in the dungeon?

[Khedrac]

After that fight, was it still somehow unsafe to rest in the dungeon?

That would depend - it was probably safe for the monsters to rest in the dungeon...


As for the "why doesn't everyone attack?"
In a lot of dungeons the inhabitants are not homogeneous. Many will not cooperate with each other (they may even attack each other while their guard is down) or they have things they consider "more important" to do.
In a place like Castle Ravenloft most of the inhabitants have reasons for being where they are (if just because Straahd said "stay here and guard this room") so even if they know there are invaders they will not be leaving their allocated station. (Also Straahd isn't initally out to kill the PCs, he wants to have fun with them, and so do some of the other inhabitants.)

That said, Players can be unhelpful in how they choose to camp up in a dungeon. I had a party that were going though a goblin lair massacring everything they met who chose to camp up in a dead-end room that had a lot of wreckage in it. When the goblin search party came "looking" for them I made it pretty clear that the goblins didn't want to find them (they had a good idea of what would happen to them - had the PCs camped hidden in a corner they would have been missed, they blocked the only door into the room) and in spite of this the party still manage to let one get away and raise the alarm, at which point the remaining goblins did attack in force.

[Bohandas]

It doesn't. Change spell memorization/preparation to work without resting.

[Bohandas]

Why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when the PCs invade the dungeon?

Presumably time and difficulty pinning down their location. Resting negates these factors.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My question is why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they rest?

First and most obvious reason; they don't know the PCs are there because the PCs didn't let anyone escape from the encounters up to that point and the walls muffled the sounds of battle.

Another reason might be that the group that attacks the sleeping party want the glory for themselves/feel like they've got something to prove/are just too stupid to realize they'd need help.

As Khedrac says, maybe the dungeon is factioned off and they simply can't call on the other inhabitants or the inhabitants are under compulsion (magical or not) to stay within a given dungeon area.

Obviously, dungeons will vary but there -are- justifications if you need them.




I'm reading Slaughtergarde and it says when PCs rest, only a small band of goblins attack the PCs instead of everyone in the entire building.

Not familiar but would any of the above work?

[RoboEmperor]

First and most obvious reason; they don't know the PCs are there because the PCs didn't let anyone escape from the encounters up to that point and the walls muffled the sounds of battle.

Surely someone would notice the corpses during the 8 hours of rest though. But this does make sense as to why they don't attack the PCs the moment they enter the dungeon.

[Peat]

Yeah this too. If PCs invade the base of operations of an organization, why don't every man available raise the alarms and group together to take out the PCs?

Because now every dungeon dive starts with the PCs gulling some group into attacking at the front, then sneaking in when every man available has grouped together to take out the decoys.

[Blackhawk748]

My question is why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they rest?

I'm reading Slaughtergarde and it says when PCs rest, only a small band of goblins attack the PCs instead of everyone in the entire building.

Because it would be like the battle of Thermopylae if the Spartans had artillery. Seriously, that many things in a 10ft wide hallway are just sitting ducks.

[SirNibbles]

A group of enemies encountering you doesn't mean all enemies suddenly know of your presence. Maybe you killed a patrol and when they don't return after a few hours, the enemy starts to think things could be bad and sends more mooks.

That being said, one enemy should try to run and sound the alarm (assuming an organised society) when there are invaders, rather than just fighting to the death.

[Jack_Simth]

My question is why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they rest?Ever heard the word "Decoy?" If *everyone* goes to a particular point when the enemy is found at that particular point... then everywhere else is unguarded. You don't necessarily know that all of the enemy's forces are committed to that point - it could be a sacrifice play. As a consequence, you need to leave most of your forces right where they are.

Sort of like in a seige when the attackers press hard on the west wall with ladder crews. You may send some troops from the east wall to reinforce the west wall, but not all of them (lest the attackers put ladders over the east wall as well).

[Sir_Chivalry]

There actually was a Dungeon magazine article on how to put crunch roll to this idea. I'll edit in the issue number when I find it but basically it boiled down to a Survival check to prepare a suitable sleeping area (with penalties for obvious stuff like the place being directly dangerous to you like a baking hot subterranean tunnel, etc) and then Fort saves to actually sleep well (with penalties for failing that prior Survival check)

The set of checks promotes being able to sleep in say, the barracks of a goblin stronghold if you've already cleared out the previous inhabitants. Setting down on the floor in a room not made to be slept in (a torture chamber, a sacrifice room, a treasure room, etc) makes the check harder.

If your players have a rope trick, or a magnificent mansion or anything in between or above, let them use their resources. If you don't want them sleeping in the dungeon, the forcing checks like above and rolling encounter chances (at the same rate as usual for the dungeon) is a good way to get the point across. And if the checks succeed and nothing is rolled on the random encounter table, then stick with that. The numbers will punish people soon enough. But a ranger (or druid, or other high Fort character with Survival due to a feat or class skill) should be able to sleep anywhere, that's kind of the reasoning.

Personal sidetrack: That's not even taking into account in my personal experience the penalty for characters with the Insomnia flaw from Dragon magazine, who need to make a whole other Fortitude check based on the physical conditions of the sleeping area in order to sleep.

Edit: Still can't find the issue but to the question of "why doesn't the dungeon organize and attack when the PCs rest" I would say they should! Within reason. The npcs are not you, the DM, they don't have your knowledge of the surroundings. But weigh the attitudes and the environment and go ahead, put the PCs to the test.

-Have the PCs been super obvious about what they're doing? Is whoever is in charge aware that the dungeon is being attacked and that enemies are within? Then go ahead and send a reasonable amount of scouts and guards to test it out.
-If the monsters are smart and organized, like hobgoblins or clerics of Hextor or something, they'd not first send all their people (see the hallway issues above). Have the PCs found all the secret doors? More importantly, have the monsters figure that out in real time as the PCs rest. Figure out where they are and, within the intelligence of the monsters, surround them as best you can. Then send in scouts to either kill them outright or figure out who they are. Then kill them with the next wave. If the PCs survive this onslaught, they'll hopefully develop either a pathological fear of resting in dungeons or become smart enough to cover their exit strategies. Either way you win.
-Are the monsters organized but dumb or chaotic enough not to care? Rush them. Waves and waves of slaad/orcs/demons won't give a toss about if the PCs escape. The hunt is on and the PCs are fighting on the run, something very few DnD classes do well. And if they do excel at fighting on the run? Great! They're doing what they invested in!
-For dungeons with a lot of independent but mobile monsters (a dragon's lair with suitable parasite creatures that stay out of the dragon's way, a goblin infested mine with a huge demon wandering the lower halls) take some time to understand how much free reign of the dungeon the mobile monsters have and plan accordingly. If a monster is independent, mobile and smart, they find a barricaded down at the end of a hallway where there wasn't one before they'll react like adventurers would. Break the door down and probably kill the new "monsters" inside.
-The important thing though is that, with proper planning and forewarning the PCs should be able to understand this. Springing something on them to "punish" them is not the way to do it, though obviously they can be surprised that the orc tunnels have a wandering black dragon or something, this should feel like it fits the world, not just that it's what they get for sleeping in the dungeon to recharge.

[Telonius]

My question is why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they rest?

I'm reading Slaughtergarde and it says when PCs rest, only a small band of goblins attack the PCs instead of everyone in the entire building.

20 minutes ago, the small band of goblins (who had never met before) had been drinking in the local tavern, and were approached by a wise, grizzled-looking elder who was looking for brave goblins to help fight off a threat. They don't want to share the loot and XP with the rest of their clan, so they're trying to take care of it themselves.

[magicalmagicman]

I think the goblins just don't give a ****. PCs invaded and killed their brethren? Who gives a ****? You there, you go take care of it, because I don't give a ****.

[ComaVision]

My players attacked an Orcish Keep a few weeks back. Then the bell atop the old church rang and all the inhabitants got together for a counter-attack.

Really though, the goblins should either a) fortify their position while the party sleeps or b) attack the party. I've run Slaughtergarde, and the goblins did attack while the party slept.

[FreddyNoNose]

Why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when the PCs invade the dungeon?

This is all part of the seedy underground of the rpg world. Monster Unions! You have various mobs each of whom have a union to represent their interests. They don't cooperated as they should because they are all involved with their own best interest. The Gelatinous Cube Union doesn't get along with the Kobold Adventurers League Local 460 for example. Not only can't they agree with the division of spoils and xp, but neither wants to go first to attack.

Then you have the main problem Dungeon Bosses (AKA Big Monsters). Big Monsters are a world wide organization and while they don't work together all the time, they do share some traits. They don't want the little guy to rise up because they might try to become a boss and well, you just can't allow that. Big Monsters have the lesser beings as a shield or cannon fodder if you will. And expending in an all out attack, might not work. They know that adventurers tend to win and rarely have TPK.

So I am sure there are more reasons that others may add to this.

[Blu]

From personal experience, most of the times the party considered to sleep in a dungeon where cases where said dungeons where a complete overkill for the party, that is, there where too many encounters and traps to deal with with the resources the party had.
In one instance, party took more than one session to clear an entire dungeon since there where about 8 or 9 encounters with the CR close to the party(about -1~+1), some mooks, a boss that was 2 or 3 CR above the party and a ton of traps.
In that case the DM didn't mind it and we were not attacked during sleep. Most other cases where sleeping in the dungeon, or outside of it, came up were similar cases, where the dungeon was too much for the party.

But it also happened one or other time where one character decided to go nova on the first or second encounter and wanted to have his resources back, so i can understand that in some cases it is unreasonable.

[Florian]

My question is why doesn't every creature in every room group together and attack the PCs as one mega encounter when they rest?

I'm reading Slaughtergarde and it says when PCs rest, only a small band of goblins attack the PCs instead of everyone in the entire building.

Because we play Combat as Sports and that's an integral part of 3E/PF?

[Starbuck_II]

despite the strawman constructed by people who don't like the 15 minute adventuring day, "resting in a dungeon" doesn't mean everyone just falls asleep in the middle of the hallway.

You'd find a dead end and barricade yourselves in and set a guard or alarm, or just sleep in a rope trick or similar, like normal people.



I love that this makes one a normal person. I mean, sure the smart ones do that, but I don't know about normal ones.

[Venger]

I love that this makes one a normal person. I mean, sure the smart ones do that, but I don't know about normal ones.

People who do not act this way do not exist in D&D. They have been eaten by monsters.

[Bohandas]

Because we play Combat as Sports and that's an integral part of 3E/PF?

It's not integral; the only modification necessary to fix it is reduction of spell preparation time from 9 hours total down to the one hour it takes to actually prepare the spells

[the_david]

Ooh, the Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde...

Yeah, this adventure has some problems. That's not to say that this is a bad adventure, it's just not that good because:
- I think I read somewhere that mister Noonan had to pick monsters from the later monster manuals. This means that some monsters are odd choices that kinda ruin the theme of the adventure. There are some monsters that fit perfectly though, and some encounters are quite clever. Another complaint was that the dungeon denizens were supposed to act stupid. (You're not the only one who feels this way.)
- The villains are meh, and there is hardly any plot.
- There are 4 new prestige classes for players, but it's unlikely that they'll take more than 2 levels in them before the end of the adventure.
- The history of the dungeon is more interesting than the entire adventure.

I don't think it would be that hard to improve on this adventure though.
1. Start with a dungeon crawl. Cut out all the stuff that you don't like and turn the entire thing into a single dungeon. Keep the gates and add more monsters and plot stuff that fits the theme.
2. After the dungeon crawl your player will be able to use the gate to go to the Mountains of Sorrow beyond Measure. There's not much known about this layer of the Abyss, as it isn't even numbered. So we've got mountains, sorrow beyond measure, a missing demon lord and presumably the ruins of a really big fortress. You can fill in the blanks here. A second dungeon crawl would be a possibility. In any case this should lead up to:
3. The return of Mu Tahn Laa and the second invasion of the valley. (Can't remember the name.)

As for your original question. Resting in a dungeon does not make sense. At least not until you've got the proper spells to deal with this kind of situation. It depends on the dungeon's ecology though. If it's filled with monsters it's not safe to rest. If it's only sparsely populated you could take a chance.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Many home-games and almost all modules are antithetical to the "Combat as War" style of play. Once you open that Pandora's box you should also be comfortable with PCs spending most of their time figuring out how to bypass or obviate encounters. That's what this line of thinking encourages, after all, since the direct route = death. CaW games can be quite fun, as long as you're prepared to run them and everyone knows what they're getting into. Playing a one-trick-pony damage machine can be loads of fun in a module, but it can be highly frustrating when you (for instance) roll more stealth checks than attack rolls.

[Luccan]

despite the strawman constructed by people who don't like the 15 minute adventuring day, "resting in a dungeon" doesn't mean everyone just falls asleep in the middle of the hallway.

You'd find a dead end and barricade yourselves in and set a guard or alarm, or just sleep in a rope trick or similar, like normal people.

If your gm doesn't feel like allowing any of those options and you need to rest to regain spells or hp or what have you, it's customary for pcs to take watch to look out for bad guys while the others rest.

Exactly this. My old group never ran 15 minute adventuring days, but it wasn't always safer to trek out of the dungeon either. Particularly if you haven't explored every branching path and there are patrols. You set up somewhere you can defend, set up watches with the non-casters and elves (who can at least warn of approaching patrols after 4 hours), and then DM decides if monsters find you through rolls and/or logical consequences of your actions.

If you kill a dangerous beast in its den, but don't leave much evidence, and catch sleep in the back of said den where the orcs that keep it don't dare tread, you'll probably be fine. If you set up in a room the monsters occasionally use, but don't patrol, then whether one enters may be decided by dice. Then it's up to the watch to take care of it. And if you go to sleep in the middle of their barracks without a watch and no barricades, you deserve what's coming to you. Which is a coup de grace.

[Thurbane]

I don't have anything meaningful to add here, other than to share this meme that I shared in my D&D Facebook group a while back:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8c/9d/b3/8c9db34d355f97617480a09c018aff7a--hunter-pence-legs-day.jpg

[Aotrs Commander]

I think the question that needs to be asked is rather, "if you really don't want the PCs resting in a potentially dangerous environment, why have you, as a DM, not set-up an environment for them to clear in one go, i.e. with only a handful of encounters?"

If you have a whacking great long dungeon they can't possibly do in one day's resources, then it is highly unreasonable to expect them not to rest. (Or, for example, to expect the spellcasters to stand around doing nothing that majority of the time. Now, it's fine to have a few combats where the wizards will cheerfully whistle about demarkation while the noncasters do all the work, but this should be once on a while.) You, as the DM, should be cognisant of both the module and your party and your player's own capabilities. Something that might be easy for a well-optimised bunch of savvy veteran players to do in one sitting may not be possible to do with a group of unoptimised or more mechanically casual players or beginners.

(Example of the former - 3.5 version of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, which my players butchered their way through, while laughing tackling encounter after encounter without needing to rest, because the stuff in the module was so poor and their party so accidently broken (one Dread Necromancer + one Shadow Sun Ninja = slow but infinite out of combat hit point healing) that nothing challenged them. Hell, the crusader could have early solo'd the module just by having her level-approrpriate armour and shields...)

So, basically - if you don't want to address the resting-in-dungeon issue (where "resting in dungeon" also covers "party goes outside dungeon a few hundreds yards/mile or so to rest," because the difference is usually indistiguishable), then, y'know, don't run a game which is a big dungeon-crawl.

3.x D&D is a game with expendable resources, and most parties WILL rest when the expendables (typically, the spells) are used up. (Because this means that all the party members with spells etc are a) reduced to crappy crossbowmen which is boring and b) there is no recourse if things go pear-shaped.)

You as a DM, then, basically have a choice.

You can let them rest and do the fifteen minute adventuring day and just don't lose too much sleep over it, provided that they pay lip-service to it (and you can occasionally use it to your advantage).

Or you can take punitive action (attack them enmasse when the rest etc.) on the players for not playing the way you want (i.e. resting when you don't want them to) - but unless you are prepared to TPK the party if they don't get the hint or repeatedly after the first couple of times (which is fine if you AND the players are all okay with that, and if you have sufficent resources/experience/capability to be able to generate a semi-inifinite number of new games), it's likely not going to stop them trying to rest when they are out of resources. It's actually more likely to make them paranoid and prone to taking long trips out of the dungeon to rest up or finding more obscure ways of circumventing the restrictions. You can keep fighting the players on the issue, but eventually, one side or other is likely going to get fed-up about it and quit.

Occasionally, of course, you can have a go at forcing them into a bit better resources management by doing something lke adding a time limit - but, of course, that then raises the risk that the players might fail and you don't want to make it a regular habit.



Now, that said, if you PCs are being ludicrously excessive with burning resources or wanting to be at full for every combat - a legitimate problem - then that's an out-of-character problem that really needs an out-of-character solution. So the best thing you can do in that instance is form a gentleman's agreement with the players. And ask them, out of character, to be more circumspect and to... y'know, please not do that, guys. (If your players are not asshats, they should quite happily comply. Or at least grumblingly comply. If they are asshats, why are you playing with them to begin with?)

(We - and I was on the players-side for once - had to do that with our 4E game and say we'd aim not to long rest until we'd done at least four encounters (unless the [excrement] hit the fan). And THAT was because the early official modules the DM had been running had taught us badly, to whit: "you might run into a boss fight every turn of the corner, so you'd better have the majorty of your resources at all times." So we made the gentleman's agreement and sparingly used our dailys.)



(I'll be honest - if, in the OP's scenario, the players feel they have to rest 1/4 way through the dungeon, then it sounds like it's they should be expected to go through the other 3/4 in one go - or they are either being really ridiculous with resource expendature and noving every combat whether needed or not. (See above out-of-combat solution.))



Myself, I do not have a problem with the 15-minute adventuring day, and indeed, expect that many encounters (especially boss battles) will REQUIRE the PCs to be at top form; so, provided they take sensible precautions in-universe (the aforementioned spells or watches in a defensible area), I just let them the majority of the time.