Dual Gishes for Solo Campaign

[cartejos]

Hello everyone,
I am playing in a campaign solo for my DM so he can test it out and get a hand on his World Creation prowess.
He hasn't ever been a Dungeon Master before, nor have I played 3.5 before. We both have previous experience with 5e and I've been reading all of the books for 3.5 for around 2 years now, so I have a grip on the material but don't quite know how to put it to use in-practice.
It's a custom pantheon, of which an Elder Evil is planning deicide. A lot of details are kept from me for now, but as far as I know it's meant to be an Evil campaign with the characters 'helping' the Elder Evil.
The DM understands that a solo campaign might be a little boring so he's letting me do some pretty major optimization (not pun-pun levels, but he'd be willing to let me go Spellhoarding, Riddled, Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake if I wanted.)
To this optimization level he is allowing 2 flaws, the feat for worshipping an Elder Evil, and +3 la that doesn't count towards character level (but templates that put HD onto the character aren't allowed.), and gestalt with custom rules.
The gestalt rules he is allowing is that I can use PrCs on both sides at once, and I can use Dual-Progression PrCs. He specifically said to not use the fractional rules.
I haven't thought too much on the second character, but my ideas on the first (while not set in stone) were an Aeshkrau Illumian Duskblade//Wizard who takes a level of Spelldancer and dips around for various combat and magic buffs. If this build is the one I stick with I was thinking about looking around for the different PrCs that auto-quicken large groups of spells.
All official material (including Magazines) are allowed, and 3rd party material is allowed so long as I run it by him first and he approves. Such things include: Bastards and Bloodlines, Book of Erotic Fantasy (That Metaphysical Spellshaper :smallbiggrin:) and while I didn't get the book approved, I have Lost Traditions approved (the feat that changes spellcasting ability, I believe?)
TL:DR Yeah, Extremely permissive DM, bunches of fun with optimization, but I feel that it's too much material for me to compile in my head without having any nuance to my play knowledge (since i have none).

Also, if anyone can tell me what TO stands for I'd appreciate it, cause I've seen the phrase used a few times, but don't know what it means.

Edit: I feel as if I should include my current ideas for the characters
One Arcane Gish and One Divine
Arcane: Single level of Spelldancer, Three levels of Swashbuckler (Using an Elven Courtblade), Transmutation Specialist, Duskblade 3 for Channeling (Unsure if I want the levels to get the full attack)
Divine: Step 1: DMM(Persist) Step 2: Divine Power Step 3: ??? Step 4: Profit

[Nifft]

Hello everyone,
I am playing in a campaign solo for my DM so he can test it out and get a hand on his World Creation prowess.
He hasn't ever been a Dungeon Master before, nor have I played 3.5 before. We both have previous experience with 5e and I've been reading all of the books for 3.5 for around 2 years now, so I have a grip on the material but don't quite know how to put it to use in-practice.
Hello cartejos and welcome!

Let's get the big obvious question out of the way:

Why do this with 3.5e instead of the system you both already know (5e)?

I assume there is a reason, but it's not obvious from your post, and without knowing the reason why you both want to abandon the known and leap with both feet first into the worst D&D system for DMs ever, it's difficult to give good advice.




The DM understands that a solo campaign might be a little boring so he's letting me do some pretty major optimization (not pun-pun levels, but he'd be willing to let me go Spellhoarding, Riddled, Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake if I wanted.) A solo character with no party is going to be very precarious. You'll either win in one or two rounds, or you'll get incapacitated by some save-or-lose effect and die horribly.

My advice: pretend you're playing a Bioware game and make a party which you run.



Also, if anyone can tell me what TO stands for I'd appreciate it, cause I've seen the phrase used a few times, but don't know what it means.

TO = Theoretical Optimization, which is to say optimization that assumes there is no DM and therefore any gap in the rules can be interpreted any way you want. TO means "not for use in a real game".

It's distinguished from PO = Practical Optimization, which is intended to be used in a real game.

[cartejos]

The reason for doing 3.5 instead of 5th is that I've been wanting to play 3.5 ever since I first tried 4th edition when it came out, but have never had anyone willing to run a campaign, and my DM has such little knowledge about the other systems that it would be the same amount of work to make a campaign regardless of system.


The DM also told me I could run either 3 single classed characters or 2 gestalt characters, and I would prefer the 2 gestalt characters because they peak my curiosity, as my playstyle for most other games is to select a small number of characters that I can rush to powerful abilities, but who might also not scale well in the late game. (Example: Sniper in XCOM, gets high damage really early, kinda sucks midgame, situationally amazing lategame).

[Nifft]

The reason for doing 3.5 instead of 5th is that I've been wanting to play 3.5 ever since I first tried 4th edition when it came out, but have never had anyone willing to run a campaign, and my DM has such little knowledge about the other systems that it would be the same amount of work to make a campaign regardless of system. Your DM is in for an unpleasant surprise: D&D 3.5e is more work for a DM even if that DM knows the system perfectly. I know this because I did it voluntarily for years, and it's not bad if you enjoy the work, but don't fool yourself that it's the same amount of work. It's a lot more work than 5e.



The DM also told me I could run either 3 single classed characters or 2 gestalt characters, and I would prefer the 2 gestalt characters because they peak my curiosity, as my playstyle for most other games is to select a small number of characters that I can rush to powerful abilities, but who might also not scale well in the late game. (Example: Sniper in XCOM, gets high damage really early, kinda sucks midgame, situationally amazing lategame).
Okay. You should understand that an all-sources high-optimization gestalt game is NOT going to give you a typical D&D 3.5e experience -- you're going to be playing an uncommon type of game.

You'll get a very silly thing which is also a lot of fun, in that it's a hilariously poor match between quasi-medieval fluff and the post-singularity PC magic.

If your goal is to experience 3.5e, then you may not get what you wanted. But there's no problem if you're going into it informed.

-- -- --

Anyway, basic Gestalt advice:

- One side is caster, the other side is at-will / passive / defensive stuff.

- Casting is your best use for actions, so having two action-oriented classes is probably a waste.

- Druid is the exception, in that it's got both amazing passive defenses and also top-tier spellcasting, and Arcane Hierophant is great.

-- -- --

Specific character ideas:

Dragonwrought Binder 1 // Sorcerer 1 (loredrake + spellhoard) -> Anima Mage, then more caster PrCs. Other side whatever you want for 19 levels. Maybe Ur-Priest -> Tenebrious Apostate to progress Binder a bit? It's nice to have Cleric spells available for downtime abuse, even if you don't use them as much in combat.

Alternately, a Necropolitan Wizard 1 or 3 / Anima Mage 10 / Tainted Scholar 1 / _____ PrC (on one side) // Binder 1 or 3 / _____ 19 or 17 (on the other side).

Warblade is fun for the other side, since it's got stuff like Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics.

Anima Mage, Ur-Priest, and Tainted Scholar are all flavor-compatible with an Elder Evil.


The other character:

Druid 10 / Planar Shepherd 10 (for a plane like Xoriat or the Far Realms or whatever horrible evil unnatural planar prison your Elder Evil occupies)

Other side... I dunno. Scout 20? That's something for dealing with traps, plus strong returns for Pounces since you're a Druid.

[cartejos]

Your DM is in for an unpleasant surprise: D&D 3.5e is more work for a DM even if that DM knows the system perfectly. I know this because I did it voluntarily for years, and it's not bad if you enjoy the work, but don't fool yourself that it's the same amount of work. It's a lot more work than 5e.

He spends all of his down time working on it, he really enjoys the work.



Okay. You should understand that an all-sources high-optimization gestalt game is NOT going to give you a typical D&D 3.5e experience -- you're going to be playing an uncommon type of game.

You'll get a very silly thing which is also a lot of fun, in that it's a hilariously poor match between quasi-medieval fluff and the post-singularity PC magic.

If your goal is to experience 3.5e, then you may not get what you wanted. But there's no problem if you're going into it informed.

His goal is to see if the lore goes straight, and I wanna do silly things


-- -- --

Anyway, basic Gestalt advice:

- One side is caster, the other side is at-will / passive / defensive stuff.

- Casting is your best use for actions, so having two action-oriented classes is probably a waste.

- Druid is the exception, in that it's got both amazing passive defenses and also top-tier spellcasting, and Arcane Hierophant is great.

-- -- --


I definitely agree with casting being the best use of action economy, but I also thought that with only two characters both would need a bit of combat prowess. Using Spelldancer for a simple and free way to persist things at the beginning of the day and using the rest of my slots for utility casting or blasting while closing distance.


Specific character ideas:

Dragonwrought Binder 1 // Sorcerer 1 (loredrake + spellhoard) -> Anima Mage, then more caster PrCs. Other side whatever you want for 19 levels. Maybe Ur-Priest -> Tenebrious Apostate to progress Binder a bit? It's nice to have Cleric spells available for downtime abuse, even if you don't use them as much in combat.

Alternately, a Necropolitan Wizard 1 or 3 / Anima Mage 10 / Tainted Scholar 1 / _____ PrC (on one side) // Binder 1 or 3 / _____ 19 or 17 (on the other side).

Warblade is fun for the other side, since it's got stuff like Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics.

Anima Mage, Ur-Priest, and Tainted Scholar are all flavor-compatible with an Elder Evil.


For the Free LA I was thinking Mulhorandi Divine to get the Outsider (Evil) type to qualify for Tainted stuff.



The other character:

Druid 10 / Planar Shepherd 10 (for a plane like Xoriat or the Far Realms or whatever horrible evil unnatural planar prison your Elder Evil occupies)

Other side... I dunno. Scout 20? That's something for dealing with traps, plus strong returns for Pounces since you're a Druid.

Is a Druid build really so simple? I was under some notion that optimization was some grandiose and complex thing of a bunch of classes melded together with synergy.

[Karl Aegis]

Why don't you play a level-drained true dragon?

[cartejos]

Why don't you play a level-drained true dragon?

How would the character be level drained? And the True Dragons I've looked at, I'd like to know more specifically how to play a level drained Tome Dragon. Just so long as the LA doesn't exceed +3

[lylsyly]

If you are getting +3 LA for free and can use the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (1st party) take a look at Blue Dragonspawn on page 222.

For classes:

#1 Sorcerer 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7///Duskblade 20 leaves with a Gish with a lot of spells, good defensive stuff.

#2 Druid 5/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2///Scout 20 Leaves you with a gish that can wild shape and synergizes with the scouts skirmish. You'll get 9th level druid spells but only get 8ths for the wizard side.

#3 Battle Sorcerer 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 10////Something full bab with good skills(Scout basically)

Just some suggestions. YMMV

[Karl Aegis]

How would the character be level drained? And the True Dragons I've looked at, I'd like to know more specifically how to play a level drained Tome Dragon. Just so long as the LA doesn't exceed +3

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels

Get hit by enough Energy Drain attacks and fail your fortitude save after the 24 hour period. Now you have less hit dice from race.

[cartejos]

#1 Sorcerer 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7///Duskblade 20 leaves with a Gish with a lot of spells, good defensive stuff.

For the Duskblade side I'd want to PrC out at 3, 4, or 13. And I was thinking about trying to squeeze a few levels of Mystic Hunter in for Swift Haste, and persisting it with Spelldancer. But this looks quality, I really like IotSV



#2 Druid 5/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2///Scout 20 Leaves you with a gish that can wild shape and synergizes with the scouts skirmish. You'll get 9th level druid spells but only get 8ths for the wizard side.

Will Druid supplement enough healing in the early levels? I know healing isn't something that should be done in combat, but I think I might have to resort to it occasionally.

[Nifft]

Will Druid supplement enough healing in the early levels? I know healing isn't something that should be done in combat, but I think I might have to resort to it occasionally.

The best early out-of-combat healing is usually a Wand of Lesser Vigor, and a Druid can use that just fine.