Dragonlance

[Angelalex242]

As far as I know, Krynn has not been translated to 5e yet.

But if it were, how would stat up one of the Dragonlances used by characters riding dragons in that world?

[Willie the Duck]

Probably just add the Dragonslayer feature to a lance (or pike for the 'on foot' dragonlances that also seemed to have existed).

[Angelalex242]

Probably just add the Dragonslayer feature to a lance (or pike for the 'on foot' dragonlances that also seemed to have existed).

As long as the extra damage from dragonslayer doubles properly if the weapon is used during a charge, that might make sense.

Else we'd have to write it on the weapon that 'dragonslayer damage doubles on a charge'

[Arkhios]

As long as the extra damage from dragonslayer doubles properly if the weapon is used during a charge, that might make sense.

Else we'd have to write it on the weapon that 'dragonslayer damage doubles on a charge'

Why would we 'have to'? The Dragonslayer property adds damage to whatever the normal damage is for the weapon.

In the case of charge, the double damage for lance seems to imply only the base damage. It would also make a critical hit with charge insane.

[Angelalex242]

Why would we 'have to'? The Dragonslayer property adds damage to whatever the normal damage is for the weapon.

Dragons have hundreds and hundreds of hp. Adding 9-10 more on average helps, but it's a drop in the bucket most of the time.

[Arkhios]

Dragons have hundreds and hundreds of hp. Adding 9-10 more on average helps, but it's a drop in the bucket most of the time.

Yet, I only recently almost single-handedly killed a Shadow Dragon as a paladin with a basic Longsword Dragonslayer. Granted, I did land an incredibly lucky two critical smites on it. But still, a critical hit from a lance that would technically deal quadruple damage would be an overkill.

[Willie the Duck]

Dragons have hundreds and hundreds of hp. Adding 9-10 more on average helps, but it's a drop in the bucket most of the time.

Welcome to 5e combat. :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, if you want them to be utterly 1-hit-kill dragon-killers, you could stack any number of Dragonslayer and Arrow of Dragonslaying effects onto the weapon, or just say if they successfully hit a dragon, the dragon dies.

[GlenSmash!]

Dragons have hundreds and hundreds of hp. Adding 9-10 more on average helps, but it's a drop in the bucket most of the time.

Beware for you have awakened the "Are Hitpoints Meat" Monster! More Dreaded than Takhisis herself!

[Angelalex242]

Heh.

Regardless, the Dragonlances of Krynn are supposed to be legendary class items...I think.

Or am I overestimating them?

[Matrix_Walker]

The original Dragonlances are artifacts. They can only be forged with the Silver Arm of Ergoth or the Hammer of Kharas. If one of thoe artifacts were used it would be a +2 weapon, and if both were used it would be +4. With bounded accuracy, I would probably make that +1/+2 (maybe +1 more vs dragons)

When striking a dragon, a dragonlance would inflict the weilder's current HP total, plus the HP total of his mount in addition to normal lance damage.

I just don't see that happening in 5e. But by comparison, the Dragonslayer sword property is kind of weak sauce. I would probably add a property like "A character wielding a Dragonlance my add bonus damage equalling his level to the damage inflicted on a hit. When wielded while mounted on a dragon, targetted enemy dragons are considered to have vulnerability to the damage inflicted by a dragonlance. "

[Willie the Duck]

Heh.

Regardless, the Dragonlances of Krynn are supposed to be legendary class items...I think.

Or am I overestimating them?

It depends entirely how you want your campaign to play out. I know there have been rules for the Dragonlances in every edition with an actual Dragonlance sourcebook, but honestly I've only ever experienced them in the novels, and there they are (naturally) just literary devices. And while they are theoretically ultra rare legendary items, the one time they found them, they found a huge cache of them. If a party finds a huge cache of items which insta-kill or near insta-kill a type of creature (one that is supposed to be a rather big deal in the Dragonlance world), then those creatures quickly become effectively meaningless (as in, "Oh good, the treasure is only guarded by a bunch of dragons, I was worried it was guarded by something threatening, like trolls.").

My opinion is that the only time you need to bother rolling dice is if the outcome of an event is in question. So I say, if you want them to be legendary items, make them kill dragons at a touch, but be aware that this will mean that dragons will be a threat right up until the PCs get the items. Or else just make them a 'mere' 3d6 extra damage (or 6d10, con save 17 for half like the arrows) or the like.

Regardless, it is up to you, but you shouldn't wreck the campaign to make the item fit some arbitrary value of epicness.

[Angelalex242]

It depends entirely how you want your campaign to play out. I know there have been rules for the Dragonlances in every edition with an actual Dragonlance sourcebook, but honestly I've only ever experienced them in the novels, and there they are (naturally) just literary devices. And while they are theoretically ultra rare legendary items, the one time they found them, they found a huge cache of them. If a party finds a huge cache of items which insta-kill or near insta-kill a type of creature (one that is supposed to be a rather big deal in the Dragonlance world), then those creatures quickly become effectively meaningless (as in, "Oh good, the treasure is only guarded by a bunch of dragons, I was worried it was guarded by something threatening, like trolls.").

My opinion is that the only time you need to bother rolling dice is if the outcome of an event is in question. So I say, if you want them to be legendary items, make them kill dragons at a touch, but be aware that this will mean that dragons will be a threat right up until the PCs get the items. Or else just make them a 'mere' 3d6 extra damage (or 6d10, con save 17 for half like the arrows) or the like.

Regardless, it is up to you, but you shouldn't wreck the campaign to make the item fit some arbitrary value of epicness.

What if they combined the arrow of Dragonslaying property with the Dragonslaying sword property?

3d6 that always goes off, plus a lot more in the highly unlikely event the dragon fails a con save.

With this, the dragonlances are a holy terror for younger dragons, but older ones will shrug 'em off, except for that extra 3d6 sting.

I think I'd also add the bonus damage is doubled on a charge (or crit).

[Willie the Duck]

What if they combined the arrow of Dragonslaying property with the Dragonslaying sword property?

3d6 that always goes off, plus a lot more in the highly unlikely event the dragon fails a con save.

With this, the dragonlances are a holy terror for younger dragons, but older ones will shrug 'em off, except for that extra 3d6 sting.

I think I'd also add the bonus damage is doubled on a charge (or crit).

Well, it is Con save for half. But still, sure. two not-all-that-impressive anti-dragon items rolled together to make a decent one. Sounds fine.

[Quoz]

When you hit a dragon with this weapon, you crit on a 15 or higher on the d20. Simple, effective, and terrifying in the right hands.

[Hecuba]

The actual mechanics for Dragonlances in 1st & 2nd editions is fairly straightforward: Character HP+Mount HP added to damage. Ideally, the mount would also be a dragon.
That effectively means, if you have one, you one shot a dragon you hit.

Despite the fact that 5e is closer to the gameplay that that effect was initially written for than 3.x or 4e, that's probably not how you want to treat dragons unless you've got the part mowing down armies of them.

Its worth considering, then, what the goal of that structure was in its original implementation: it was a player's version of the dragon's breath weapon.
The HP scaling was not chosen randomly: that was how the dragon's breath weapon scaled in 1st edition AD&D. The goal of the Dragonlace was parity: the one-hit-kill was simply a result of the fact that that's what parity with a dragon's breath weapon meant at the time.

Rather than chasing the particular implementation from the old days, we should thus probably consider what that parity should look like in 5e.
We could look at damage directly.
Setting aside Wyrmlings, a breath weapon is (very roughly) about 11/3 fully-up-leveled fireballs worth of average damage. It's closer to 11/2 for young dragons, but it gets us in the right range.
If you go that route, 7d4+(d4 per level) gets you about where you want to be. I'm assuming here that you would make extra attacks unusable with the effect (make it 1/round, require a charge, something|| EDIT: Make it a bonus action called Smite Dragon that functions like paladin smites. That should prevent stacking, and, if desired, could also allow you to mirror the recharge mechanic on the Breath weapon for closer parity.).


Honestly, however, I would prefer to go a different route.
I would use something similar to a Shadow's STR damage ability: on successful hit deal character level CON damage*, CON save half.
Death on 0 CON.

Not sure what to key the save DC off of- it would need to scale, and if a squishy wizard wants to pick up a Dragonlance and charge at the Dragon, I'm not going to punish them. Maybe just the player's highest stat.

The dragon will start out making the save fairly easily against an appropriately leveled party, but the CON damage will make that harder each hit. It feels more interesting than "you hit the dragon really hard", which is nice for something that is supposed to be an artifact.

The CON damage should be enough to safely kill a Dragon in 3 rounds, which roughly seems like parity for a dragon concentrating on killing one enemy if the enemy doesn't get intervention.



* I would prefer to roll the CON damage instead, but the best I can come up with that isn't too high is (1/2 1d4) per level, which seems janky and still possibly too generous on the high end.

[Angelalex242]

The actual mechanics for Dragonlances in 1st & 2nd editions is fairly straightforward: Character HP+Mount HP added to damage. Ideally, the mount would also be a dragon.
That effectively means, if you have one, you one shot a dragon you hit.

Despite the fact that 5e is closer to the gameplay that that effect was initially written for than 3.x or 4e, that's probably not how you want to treat dragons unless you've got the part mowing down armies of them.

Its worth considering, then, what the goal of that structure was in its original implementation: it was a player's version of the dragon's breath weapon.
The HP scaling was not chosen randomly: that was how the dragon's breath weapon scaled in 1st edition AD&D. The goal of the Dragonlace was parity: the one-hit-kill was simply a result of the fact that that's what parity with a dragon's breath weapon meant at the time.

Rather than chasing the particular implementation from the old days, we should thus probably consider what that parity should look like in 5e.
We could look at damage directly.
Setting aside Wyrmlings, a breath weapon is (very roughly) about 11/3 fully-up-leveled fireballs worth of average damage. It's closer to 11/2 for young dragons, but it gets us in the right range.
If you go that route, 7d4+(d4 per level) gets you about where you want to be. I'm assuming here that you would make extra attacks unusable with the effect (make it 1/round, require a charge, something|| EDIT: Make it a bonus action called Smite Dragon that functions like paladin smites. That should prevent stacking, and, if desired, could also allow you to mirror the recharge mechanic on the Breath weapon for closer parity.).


Honestly, however, I would prefer to go a different route.
I would use something similar to a Shadow's STR damage ability: on successful hit deal character level CON damage*, CON save half.
Death on 0 CON.

Not sure what to key the save DC off of- it would need to scale, and if a squishy wizard wants to pick up a Dragonlance and charge at the Dragon, I'm not going to punish them. Maybe just the player's highest stat.

The dragon will start out making the save fairly easily against an appropriately leveled party, but the CON damage will make that harder each hit. It feels more interesting than "you hit the dragon really hard", which is nice for something that is supposed to be an artifact.

The CON damage should be enough to safely kill a Dragon in 3 rounds, which roughly seems like parity for a dragon concentrating on killing one enemy if the enemy doesn't get intervention.



* I would prefer to roll the CON damage instead, but the best I can come up with that isn't too high is (1/2 1d4) per level, which seems janky and still possibly too generous on the high end.

Interesting. Ancient Dragons are absolutely going to burn their legendaries trying to stave it off, but half of level 17 is still 8 (rounded down)...

[Hecuba]

Interesting. Ancient Dragons are absolutely going to burn their legendaries trying to stave it off, but half of level 17 is still 8 (rounded down)...

Indeed. That also means that they might not be able to afford to use it for a Disintegrate save on turn 2.

[History_buff]

I think the Con damage suggestion is a very interesting way to run it and it’s very intriguing. It’s hard to hit a dragon but con damaging ability is a very powerful way for the weapon to operate that’s reflective of the actual weapon. Yet it’s not hugely overpowered.

[saeval]

The folks thinking con damage are going in the right direction. Honestly, I think a direct port of the 3.5 Greater Dragonlance wouldn't be gamebreaking for what you are wanting.

It was a +4 Dragon Bane lance, that did 1 point of permanent con damage in addition to regular damage when it struck a dragon. If you were to crit a dragon with a dragonlance, it would do Con damage equal to your character level as well.

[MeeposFire]

ewww why would you ever want to make more use of ability score damage? Every 2 points you need to change your con save, con checks, and -1 HP times their HD? That just adds more work than needs to be done and that is sadly a standard for 3.5 but thankfully not the standard for 5e for the most part. Heck I would much rather do the original rule of adding the HP of rider and mount even if that is not the best either than that. If you want to do that basic idea with less problems would be 1/2 the targets HD in extra damage every hit. Most of the same benefit but with less work (though there are other ideas I would like better that would not need to know another creature's stats).

[Hecuba]

ewww why would you ever want to make more use of ability score damage? Every 2 points you need to change your con save, con checks, and -1 HP times their HD? That just adds more work than needs to be done and that is sadly a standard for 3.5 but thankfully not the standard for 5e for the most part. Heck I would much rather do the original rule of adding the HP of rider and mount even if that is not the best either than that. If you want to do that basic idea with less problems would be 1/2 the targets HD in extra damage every hit. Most of the same benefit but with less work (though there are other ideas I would like better that would not need to know another creature's stats).

Humm. That's a good point - it's a bit more arithmetic than is common at this point. I'd still prefer that to just "does lots of damage to dragons": it's a setting-defining artifact, so I'd like it to feel different. But I get why you wouldn't like it.

If you're looking for straight damage, something like Smite Dragon I mentioned above is probably best. If you wanted to really chase parity with a Breath Weapon, make it a more powerful, add a save and advantage on the attack roll (since breath weapons don't miss), and give it recharge like breath weapons.

Anyone have ideas other than damage and CON for making it go?

The only other thing that comes to mind for me would be to add some form of proxy counter based on HD: 1d4+(d4 per 4 levels) "wound" counters on hit, con save 1/2. Dragon dies if counters exceed HD. But that reeks of "bloodied" and called shot variants, which I dislike.

[Angelalex242]

Humm. That's a good point - it's a bit more arithmetic than is common at this point. I'd still prefer that to just "does lots of damage to dragons": it's a setting-defining artifact, so I'd like it to feel different. But I get why you wouldn't like it.

If you're looking for straight damage, something like Smite Dragon I mentioned above is probably best. If you wanted to really chase parity with a Breath Weapon, make it a more powerful, add a save and advantage on the attack roll (since breath weapons don't miss), and give it recharge like breath weapons.

Anyone have ideas other than damage and CON for making it go?

The only other thing that comes to mind for me would be to add some form of proxy counter based on HD: 1d4+(d4 per 4 levels) "wound" counters on hit, con save 1/2. Dragon dies if counters exceed HD. But that reeks of "bloodied" and called shot variants, which I dislike.

My original plan was combining the dragonslayer property of swords with the arrow of slaying property. The lances are therefore lethal against young dragons, but older dragons are only ever taking the half damage from the slaying property.

[GlenSmash!]

My original plan was combining the dragonslayer property of swords with the arrow of slaying property. The lances are therefore lethal against young dragons, but older dragons are only ever taking the half damage from the slaying property.

It's a decent strategy. I hand a level 5 Ranger with arrows of Dragon Slaying lay a mean hurt on a Young Dragon in a recent campaign.

I was surprised at how effective they were.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I'd simply have it force a save v death on hit in combat, maybe with disadvantage if you want it to be more powerful.

The lingering effects are another matter and I'd probably separate that out and deal with it on the creature end. Thinking about it I'd maybe create a template to apply to the wounded dragon with a Con penalty and a loss of functionality of one or more physical traits chosen from a list: decreased land speed, decreased Str, decreased Dex, decreased fly speed, reduction in passive perception, reduced blindsight/darkvision range, maybe some decreased damage die or attack modifier.

[ErHo]

Here is a good start to 5e Dragonlance:
http://dragonlancenexus.com/rulescategory/rules/dnd5e-rules/

"LESSER DRAGONLANCE
A lesser Dragonlance can be created using silver dragonmetal from Dragon
Mountain in Ergoth and either the Silver Arm of Ergoth or the Hammer of Kharas.
A lesser Dragonlance is a +1 lance that glows with an inner light. When wielded
against an evil true dragon, it becomes a +2 lance. Upon a hit against an evil true
dragon, it deals an extra 1d6 piercing damage.
GREATER DRAGONLANCE
A greater Dragonlance can be created using only the combination of pure
dragonmetal and both required artifacts-the Silver Arm of Ergoth and the Hammer of
Kharas. Legend has it that in the days of Huma, that Paladine himself would sent a
portion of himself to the land to bless these artifacts with his power. With Paladine no
longer in the heavens above, the ability to create these blessed weapons may indeed
be gone forever.
A greater Dragonlance is a +2 lance that glows with an inner light. When wielded
against an evil true dragon, it becomes a +3 lance. Upon a hit against an evil true
dragon, it deals an extra 2d6 piercing damage.
If used while mounted on a dragon, the wielder acts as if he has the Mounted
Combatant feat.
UNIQUE DRAGONLANCES
Some Dragonlances are created for special purposes, such as slaying white dragons,
etc. These special weapon may have other abilities to them that a standard
Dragonlance does not. A Lance that was created to fight red dragons may do an extra
1d6 cold damage and have the appearance of being sheathed in ice. Dragonlances can
be customized to fit any theme or dragon foe you can think of!
DRAGONLANCE OF HUMA
The Dragonlance of Huma was the first Greater Dragonlance created, and
wielded by Huma against Takhisis herself at the end of the great Dragon Wars that
ended the Age of Dreams and began the Age of Might.
If wielded by somebody other than a lawful-good creature, the Lance of Huma is
merely a +2 lance with none of it's other properties.
When wielded by a lawful good creature, the Dragonlance of Huma is a +3 lance
that glows with an inner light. If wielded against any true dragon (defined as a
chromatic, metallic, aquatic, and sea dragon, but not including Draconians, wyverns, or
similar creatures), the Lance ignores damage resistance that would normally apply to
it's attacks. When wielded against an evil true dragon, it becomes a +4 lance. Upon a
hit against such a dragon, it deals an extra 3d6 piercing damage. If the wielder scores a
critical hit, it also deals radiant damage equal to the wielder's total level that cannot be
reduced by any means.
Once per day, the wielder of the Lance can attempt an attack against a celestial,
elemental, fey, or fiend. If the attack hits, instead of the normal damage, the target must
succeed on a DC 17 Charisma saving throw or be forced back to it's home plane. (Fey
return to the Feywild if successfully targeted.)
If used while mounted on a dragon, the wielder acts as if he has the Mounted
Combatant feat."

http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/


The Dragonlance
The fabled Dragonlance, also called the Spear of
Paladine by some, was created to destroy the legions
of evil dragons during the Third Dragon War. Many
were created in these early days, although not too
many of the originals remain in the world today. It is
said that in order to craft a Greater Dragonlance, the
smith must have a supply of dragonmetal, like that at
the Silver Dragon Mountain in Foghaven Vale. This
metal must be forged by someone that has the Silver
Arm of Ergoth, using the Hammer of Kharas. If only
two of these three components are present for forg-
ing, the Lance is a Lesser Dragonlance. Theros Iron-
feld created the first Dragonlances in over millennia
for use in the War of the Lance against the flying
hordes of Takhisis' evil dragons. They would then be
largely unused for three decades. They were used
once again, against the forces of Chaos in what
came to be known as the Summer of Chaos, or the
Second Cataclysm.
There are 2 varieties of Dragonlances--the foot-
man's lance and the mounted lance. The footman's
lance uses the base statistics of a spear, and the
mounted lance uses the statistics for a lance. Either
type of Dragonlance gives off a silvery glow. The
head is razor-sharp, and wicked barbs extend along
the length of the head. Both are perfectly balanced
for stabbing, although unwieldy for throwing.
Dragonlance
Level 8+ Rare
Dragons fear the mighty Dragonlance, both the footm
an's
lance and the mounted lance, and rightly so. They
are the
bane of dragon-kind, giving mankind an advantage th
at
very few things can. A Dragonlance of level 18+ is
considered to be a greater Dragonlance.
Lvl 8
+2 3,400 gp
Lvl 23 +5 425,000 gp
Lvl 13 +3 17,000 gp
Lvl 28 +6 2,125,000 gp
Lvl 18 +4 85,000 gp
Weapon:
Spear or Lance
Enhancement Bonus:
Attack rolls and damage rolls.
Critical:
+1d6 damage per plus, +1d12 per plus vs. dragons
Properties
✦
All Dragonlances have the High Crit property.
✦
The Dragonlance deals an extra 1d6 damage to
dragons.
Level 18 or 23:
extra 2d6 damage to dragons.
Level 28:
extra 3d6 damage to dragons.
✦
(Greater Lance only) When a successful attack hits
an
evil dragon, until the end of that dragon's next tu
rn, it has
vulnerable 10 to all damage.
Level 28:
Vulnerable 15 to all damage.

[furby076]

A quick reminder for those that thing the 1e/2e lances were OP because they could almost insta kill...remember, in dragonlance world, by the time the lance comes into play, there is a war with hundreds of dragons on either side. So a few people insta killing dragons is not that much. Its no more impressive than a level 18 character one shotting level 1 fighters in a war campaign.

Just saying, if you introduce those kinds of lances, make sure dragons are a plenty

[Angelalex242]

A quick reminder for those that thing the 1e/2e lances were OP because they could almost insta kill...remember, in dragonlance world, by the time the lance comes into play, there is a war with hundreds of dragons on either side. So a few people insta killing dragons is not that much. Its no more impressive than a level 18 character one shotting level 1 fighters in a war campaign.

Just saying, if you introduce those kinds of lances, make sure dragons are a plenty

It's a rise of Tiamat campaign, where the good guys came up with the bright idea of riding a metallic dragon (a silver, in this case) into battle.

Many suggested, "Ya know, you're basically playing Dragonlance right now."

So this is a Fearun campaign, in which the Dragonlances don't actually exist yet. Any lances made would be the first of their kind, as the idea of humans riding dragons around is something we basically came up with yesterday, and it hasn't caught on yet.

[saeval]

hilariously, rise of tiamat and the hoard of the dragon queen were initially going to be a dragonlance story, but 5e turned into a faerun edition again so they modified it.

[Arkhios]

hilariously, rise of tiamat and the hoard of the dragon queen were initially going to be a dragonlance story, but 5e turned into a faerun edition again so they modified it.

well, to be fair, unless I'm mistaken, they did provide guidelines to convert the adventure to any setting, including Dragonlance.

[Mad Max]

I'm not 100% sure if this would work in everyone's game, but if the item is supposed to be a dragon killing artifact, maybe each successful attack gives the dragon a failed death save out of 3? Or maybe it can take a number of failed death saves based on it's age, and your balance preferences. Either way, the damage wouldn't matter, so it could just be, for example, +2 Dragon-slayer lance, with the extra mechanic tacked on.

Alternatively, if you don't like that idea, maybe give it advantage on attacks against dragons, crits on 18-20 and some kind of extra damage (your level? 3d10? Your total/remaining hit dice? Something like that).