Monk tank

[stoutstien]

Ok I know it isn't optimize but I like the idea of a tough monk. So far I'm thinking a hill dwarf kensai monk with the new dwarven toughness feat . It address two of the big issues low AC and hp . Anything I missed?

[Quoxis]

Don’t use flurry, spend your ki to dodge on a bonus action.
Reminder what dodge does:
- disadvantage on attacks against you
- you get advantage on all dex saves

The best way to survive isn’t taking blows better than others, but to not take damage at all. Whether your GM (eg the monsters/opponents) will still attack you instead of the squishies is up to them though.

[sophontteks]

Ok ok hear me out. Go tranquility.
Starting at level 3 you can heal for 10 hp/lvl. That's twice as strong as the paladin lay on hands and you can do it as part of your attack with no limit on the max healing you can deliver at once. If the enemy chooses to ignore you, you can give those HP to the ally and you'd still be fulfilling your tank roll. Imagine a skill that says "Your HP total is doubled." The Tranquility starting ability is better then that.

you can also tank certain diplomatic encounters :P

EDIT: misread sanctuary.

[Blood of Gaea]

Consider 1 level of Barbarian, having 2 rages a long rest that give damage resistance is really useful. You could also consider 3 for Bear Totem that allows that resistance to apply to most things, but I wouldn't take those levels until later on. I'd probably go with Kensei Monk for this build.

[MadBear]

As with any monk you're going to be a bit MAD. You'll want a good Con for tankiness and HP's, a good Dex for AC and attacking, and a good Wisdom to land your stunning blows.

If you're using your bonus action to dodge, you're going to be fairly tanking already. At this point, the bigger problem tanking will be that your damage output will be pretty lackluster, making you a low priority. So you'll need something like stunning strike to be more of a threat.

[stoutstien]

So let's use the standard array just as a base, that will give me
Hill dwarf
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 15
Wis 14
Cha 10
Int 8
Go kensai at 3 with a whip as focus for range and +2 ac
Lv 4 dwarven toughness now when I use patient defense I have a 1d8 +3 self heal.
I figure rest asi would max Dex then Wis.
Wish list: bracers of Defense,

On a side note is using an animated Shield count as wielding it?

[MaxWilson]

Ok I know it isn't optimize but I like the idea of a tough monk. So far I'm thinking a hill dwarf kensai monk with the new dwarven toughness feat . It address two of the big issues low AC and hp . Anything I missed?

An Alert Shadow Monk with Darkness up imposes disadvantage on attackers, which mitigates AC issues while leaving your bonus action free. Only issue is that you can't make opportunity attacks against creatures you can't see, so it's harder to pin enemies in place with Stunning Strike.

You could rectify that with Warlock levels if you were so inclined and had the Cha for it.

[Quoxis]

So let's use the standard array just as a base, that will give me
Hill dwarf
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 15
Wis 14
Cha 10
Int 8
Go kensai at 3 with a whip as focus for range and +2 ac
Lv 4 dwarven toughness now when I use patient defense I have a 1d8 +3 self heal.
I figure rest asi would max Dex then Wis.
Wish list: bracers of Defense,

On a side note is using an animated Shield count as wielding it?

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/24/animated-shield-and-bladesinging/

[stoutstien]

Nothing against sage advice, but is there anything actually written in published material that says you have to be proficient in something to attune to it?

[Blood of Gaea]

Nothing against sage advice, but is there anything actually written in published material that says you have to be proficient in something to attune to it?
Proficiency has nothing to do with the restriction of using a shield as a Monk.

[Quoxis]

Nothing against sage advice, but is there anything actually written in published material that says you have to be proficient in something to attune to it?

You have to be proficient in shields to wield one, on the other hand the animated shield‘s description only states you have to activate it „while holding it“.
Wielding a shield counts as being armored, which disables your martial arts feature. Again, a floating shield is technically not wielded as far as i‘m aware, but...
Typical case of ask your GM. I wouldn’t allow it because it relies on multiple very generous interpretations and monks (especially kensai) generally shouldn’t have a problem with getting a decent AC, but i‘m not your GM.

[stoutstien]

I wouldn't even ask or allow it I just thought it be a large over sight if animated Shield could be used by any class regardless.

[PeteNutButter]

The best way to be a tanky monk as a dwarf is to wear armor. Your AC will be so low that even if you dodge enemies have a fair chance to hit you. So you’re spending all your ki defensively and still getting hit while doing very little damage.

On the flip side if you take your first level in fighter or just be a mountain dwarf you can swing an axe and wear armor just like a fighter, and have a good AC that makes the bonus action dodging actually worth it. The only problem is you have to unarmed strike for that bonus Kensei AC (which would do 1 + str mod damage). The fighter level would give a load more AC starting out at 19 AC going up to 21 with full plate, shield, and defensive FS, 23 when you throw on the Kensei bonus.

That’s far more useful when disadvantage is thrown on, compared to the 15 AC the dwarf would have for its first 7 levels of play.

[Blood of Gaea]

The best way to be a tanky monk as a dwarf is to wear armor.
You can also be a Tortle for a native 17 AC. That said, without multiclassing Tortle isn't particularly synergistic with Monk beyond that.

[Quoxis]

The best way to be a tanky monk as a dwarf is to wear armor. Your AC will be so low that even if you dodge enemies have a fair chance to hit you. So you’re spending all your ki defensively and still getting hit while doing very little damage.

On the flip side if you take your first level in fighter or just be a mountain dwarf you can swing an axe and wear armor just like a fighter, and have a good AC that makes the bonus action dodging actually worth it. The only problem is you have to unarmed strike for that bonus Kensei AC (which would do 1 + str mod damage). The fighter level would give a load more AC starting out at 19 AC going up to 21 with full plate, shield, and defensive FS, 23 when you throw on the Kensei bonus.

That’s far more useful when disadvantage is thrown on, compared to the 15 AC the dwarf would have for its first 7 levels of play.

Not trying to start a war here, but 14 AC on level one is far from optimal, but also not that low. I would try to get an ASI for my dex asap, that’s true, but especially from level 2 upwards when ki comes into play it shouldn’t be too bad.
The idea of using ki dodging with armor (full plate karate kid?) is entertaining and seems like something only a dwarf would think of though, so i‘d try it.

[sophontteks]

I don't know about relying on the dodge action. The dwarf would be very tanky but he's not going to be able to tank because enemies are just going to go around him. The Dwarven racial ability is cool but you need sentinel to keep the enemy on you. You only get 2 attacks max if you use dodge, one of which must be unarmed, and your max dexterity will only be 15 until level 8 (if you use point buy).

The Dwarven Resilience trait uses hit die, which means you'll miss them when you short rest and you only get half of them back on a long rest. Depending on the situation that could be a problem.

With Kensai vs. Tranquility. Kensai gives +2 AC. Tranquility gives +10 hp per level. Neither really has anything to offer outside that. The later tanks just like the druid. It has access to a massive HP pool as a bonus action. This would allow you to keep your hit die for short rests and nab Sentinel. Or you could take Dwarven Resilience and you'll have an even larger hp pool.

The problem is that then I think why bother with Dwarf at all when variant human could have the same AC as the Kensai at level 4. He would still have access to that hefty tranquillity hp pool so the difference in hp isn't so much a problem.

[Jamesps]

The Long Death monk was kind of designed from the ground up as a tank. You can wade into battle and frighten everyone around you, giving them disadvantage not just to attack you, but to attack your entire party. You should be able to harvest some temp hp at the end of every fight which will let you go into the next one with some "advanced" healing. If you die, spend a ki and come back to life.

I like kensei and all, but the long death monk may well be the best tank in the game with their unlimited use fear ability.

[Talionis]

A dip in Barbarian might be helpful as it will allow you to just have 13 in Wisdom and focus on Dex and Constitution for unarmored defense.

[stoutstien]

Thanks for the ideas all, gave me lots to digest.

[CTurbo]

I played a Wood Elf Long Death Monk with a 20 Dex and 20 Wis and it was one of the tankiest characters I have ever played. High AC, mobility, and temp HP = 5+ my level was incredibly strong.

Highly recommend!

[Citan]

Hi!

I'll also vote for the Long Death Monk, his Fear ability makes him the best support of all archetypes in the first half of play, provided you are fine with dealing little to no damage round per round.
A nice way to go around this would be to make a mix between this Monk and any class that can give you sustainable fuel for bonus actions (considering no more than 3-level because it's already quite a big investment)...

Permanent
- Thief Rogue (helps more with caltraps and such, or healing with Healer feat).
- MasterMind Rogue (Help as a bonus action, plain and simple).
- Arcane Trickster Rogue (Mage Hand as a bonus action - heavy YMMV thing here, but with an open-minded DM can be used in fun and efficient ways in a fight).

Short-rest sustainable
Raven Queen Warlock: Spiritual Weapon, non-concentration decent damage for a bonus action.
Celestial Warlock: Flaming Sphere, best bang for your buck but beware of collateral. ;)

Long-rest only (writing from memory, so probably incomplete)
Clerics: Spiritual Weapon, Healing Words, Shield of Faith, Sanctuary.
Druids: Healing Words, Dust Devil (still takes an action to cast), Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal.
Bard: Heat Metal, Healing Words.
Wizard: Dust Devil, Flaming Sphere.

IF you don't like the Long Death, then go Kensei indeed, grabbing either 3 levels of Bear Barbarian for maximum resilience, or just one level of Cleric (Shield of Faith) or Magic Initiate (Mage Armor) for extra AC, or 3 levels of Battlemaster for Trip Attack / Menacing Attack...
Or multiclass into Fiend Warlock (upcast Command) or Glamour Bard (Command as bonus action) for more aggro ability.
Because Kensei is all about dealing damage, not controlling enemy movement.
For that, you'd rather pick Open Hand or 4e.

Monk tank as in "resilient" is easy enough to make. In latter half, he's in the top 3 most resilient. In the first half, you can boost survivability with small investments.

Monk tank as in "aggro enemies and keep them where I want or otherwise reduce their threat level one way or another" is more complex to achieve especially at low level, except for Long Death. :)

[Mad Max]

It's likely not optimized, especially as I'm not at my books at the moment, but the concept is there!

In terms of pure defensive ability, try a drunken master hill dwarf, maybe dipping into barbarian to get bear totem (although you might not be comfortable multiclassing that much). You could do it the other way around, so as to rely on your Con more for unarmored AC if you wanted to as well. I love this build because of the mechanics, and possible roleplayability (a dwarven drunkard with anger issues, with hidden depths of spirituality).

I'm not sure what the difference between toughness and dwarven toughness, but if you can stack them, go for it.

Hope that helps, or at least inspires your own build!

[Deadandamnation]

As ever V-Human is probably the best bet to do something (the only downside is missing darkvision at low levels).

16 Dex and 16 Wisdom from level 1. At least 14 into Con.
Though feat, or any other defensive one.

Starting AC 16, 1d8+4 (8.5) HP each level.

+2 Dex @ level 4, +2 Wis @ level 8 and buy something to get darkvision.

@ lvl 8
70 HP
18 AC
80 Healing Hands
Stunning Fist DC 14

Never use Dodge, your aim is to stun things.

[tatsuyashiba]

Pure monk just isn’t a tank. Mediocre hitpoints, middling AC, lack of damage mitigation at low levels, MAD already so unlikely to have an amazing Constitution. If you are surrounded as a monk, you’re in a bad place, except for a few turns dodging. There’s a reason Open Hand monks remove reactions using Flurry of Blows.

So let’s look at multiclass monk.

Monk 1 / Moon Druid X, variant human with Resilient Constitution feat or, depending on your DM, the Tough feat. Start with 16 Wis, other stats don’t matter. Your priority each level is to bump Wis by +2.

In animal form you can add your +3 Wis modifier to the animal’s Dex bonus for middling AC. You are a tank because animal forms act as an HP sponge and you get two forms per short rest. You are probably large, maybe even huge, and can take up a big part of the battlefield. Perhaps you let the most vulnerable party member mount you.

Level 1 Monk/2 Druid (16 Wis) CR 1 Giant spider would have AC 16, 26 HP. Level 1 Monk/Level 6 Druid (18 Wis) CR 2 Giant Elk would have 17 AC, 42 HP. Level 1 Monk/Level 10 Druid (20 Wis) Air Elemental AC 20, 90 HP. Get you some bracers of defense to bump AC by 2. If the DM is charitable and adds Monk Unarmored Defense to animal Natural Armor, even better.

Starting as monk, plus Resilient Con, gives proficiency in Strength, Dex, and Constitution saves. You’ll use the animal’s physical stats plus your own proficiency bonus. You carry your mental stats over in animal form - weigh the pros/cons of decent mental stats always versus having a decent Dex/Con/Str when you revert to human form.

IF your DM interprets Tough as granting each of your animal forms 2x character level extra hitpoints - well, you might be the thing legends are made of. I still prefer Con proficiency to fire off a Druid concentration spell like Faerie Fire or Conjure Animals before bonus action shape changing.

Role play wise you practice animal form martial arts ;) Character inspiration came to me from visiting the National Musuem of the American Indian in Washington DC. I think the social and exploration pillars with this character would be fun - having animal forms skilled in tracking, stealth, and access to flavorful Druid spells.

[Citan]

Pure monk just isn’t a tank. Mediocre hitpoints, middling AC, lack of damage mitigation at low levels, MAD already so unlikely to have an amazing Constitution. If you are surrounded as a monk, you’re in a bad place, except for a few turns dodging. There’s a reason Open Hand monks remove reactions using Flurry of Blows.

This statement holds true only at low levels (at higher level Monk basically yoyos between different places in the top 5 resilient classes depending on target level and subclasses), and only when you want to play your Monk using all abilities or even focusing on Stunning Strike.

Otherwise, a starting 16 AC with Dodge is largely worth a 21 AC. And surprisingly enough, that Dodge as a bonus action does not require being unarmed or unarmored.

That bit makes many multiclass builds interesting, especially when you pair Monk with a class that...
a) doesn't have much use of his bonus action.
b) can get a powerful use of his action.
Typically, a dual-class or tri-class with a Monk and Fighter could be very worth getting 4 levels of Monk.

Even better, a dual-class with a class that has little overlap with Monk abilities, meaning mostly Rogue (albeit harsh competition on bonus action) or a caster.
In that regard, the Moon Druid which is actually not resilient by itself synergizes probably the best with the Monk. :)

[Quoxis]

That bit makes many multiclass builds interesting, especially when you pair Monk with a class that...
a) doesn't have much use of his bonus action.
b) can get a powerful use of his action.
Typically, a dual-class or tri-class with a Monk and Fighter could be very worth getting 4 levels of Monk.

Even better, a dual-class with a class that has little overlap with Monk abilities, meaning mostly Rogue (albeit harsh competition on bonus action) or a caster.

Playing a woodelf swashbuckler 6/monk 2 currently. Dives in and out of melee with the swashbuckler feature from lvl 3 (mitigating the bonus action overlap), has two uses of bonus action dodge per short rest and an AC of 17 and was the only character to not get ko‘d at least once by the kraken the party was fighting last session.
The plan is to go one more level of rogue, then long death monk (from scag) to get temp hp on a kill and as a quasi-capstone at lvl 18 become quasi-immortal in case that the AC doesn’t cut it anymore.

[Citan]

Playing a woodelf swashbuckler 6/monk 2 currently. Dives in and out of melee with the swashbuckler feature from lvl 3 (mitigating the bonus action overlap), has two uses of bonus action dodge per short rest and an AC of 17 and was the only character to not get ko‘d at least once by the kraken the party was fighting last session.
The plan is to go one more level of rogue, then long death monk (from scag) to get temp hp on a kill and as a quasi-capstone at lvl 18 become quasi-immortal in case that the AC doesn’t cut it anymore.
Hi!
So you mean end build Rogue 7 / Monk 13?

I'd really recommend to not grab that Rogue 7 then: I understand that getting Evasion early and another die of Sneak Attack may be appealing, but...
1) It means that Monk 7 will be overall a dead level, since it also provides Evasion.
2) Immediately going Monk means you can end as a Rogue 6 / Monk 14: you get the lvl 11 abitlity significantly earlier (considering how much time between levels in the last tier) and you can get Diamond Soul as a true capstone which is imo far better, especially if you want to be really extra resilient. :)

[Quoxis]

Hi!
So you mean end build Rogue 7 / Monk 13?

I'd really recommend to not grab that Rogue 7 then: I understand that getting Evasion early and another die of Sneak Attack may be appealing, but...
1) It means that Monk 7 will be overall a dead level, since it also provides Evasion.
2) Immediately going Monk means you can end as a Rogue 6 / Monk 14: you get the lvl 11 abitlity significantly earlier (considering how much time between levels in the last tier) and you can get Diamond Soul as a true capstone which is imo far better, especially if you want to be really extra resilient. :)

Thanks for the advice, but the campaign was planned to end at about 10-12th level, and even though our DM proclaimed that it’s probably going to go a bit further than anticipated i doubt i‘ll ever see diamond soul.
Also, as i said: my character was last man standing once already, so getting more defensive features (evasion and then temp hp within two levels) is my priority. It’s more of a short term benefit point of view than about being totally optimized (and i know i‘d hate it if i’d gimp my character now so he would be ideal at level 20 and we‘d stop at 17... not reaching the „1 ki point to not die“ feature because the campaign ends is negligible).

[Citan]

Thanks for the advice, but the campaign was planned to end at about 10-12th level, and even though our DM proclaimed that it’s probably going to go a bit further than anticipated i doubt i‘ll ever see diamond soul.
Also, as i said: my character was last man standing once already, so getting more defensive features (evasion and then temp hp within two levels) is my priority. It’s more of a short term benefit point of view than about being totally optimized (and i know i‘d hate it if i’d gimp my character now so he would be ideal at level 20 and we‘d stop at 17... not reaching the „1 ki point to not die“ feature because the campaign ends is negligible).
Oh, then I totally misunderstood you.

I thought you were planning a high-level character because I thought you refered to lvl 11 "use Ki to avoid 0" feature of Monk. :=)

If you plan on stopping around char-level 12/13 then your choice is perfect, since you wouldn't ever get high enough Monk to get the redundant evasion.

If you plan on going as far as lvl 18... Well it's basically a matter of getting...
- Either Evasion really early but possibly get redundant later...
- Or getting it 5 levels later but means that, in the meantime, you get THP on kill early, more Dodge as bonus action, defense against arrows, better mobility, an ASI a bit earlier, Extra Attack (more damage = more kill = more THP) and Stunning Strike (damage and defense at the same time, at least when it works ^^). And pushing the Monk 11 ahead by 40 000 xp (lvl 17 instead of 18). :)

Neither is bad, but I'd argue that the delay in Evasion is worth it. Of course I don't know your game so Evasion may be useful on a regular enough basis to make it a top-feature. ;)

Anyways: the only three importants bits really are having fun, surviving and contributing to the party. As long as you check all three, whatever... ^^ Have fun!