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8BitNinja
2018-03-30, 04:07 PM
So in two weeks I'm joining a Pathfinder game with several friends and my brothers. While the DM, one of my brothers, and I have experience with TRPGs, the other 5 players have only played a single one shot campaign. These are the characters we have

LG Human Paladin
LG Human Cleric
NG Half Elf Bard
CG Human Barbarian
CN Elf Rogue
CN Half Orc Fighter
CN Catfolk Wizard

Now as you see here, there are 4 chaotic characters, and three chaotic neutrals. Do you know how we can get this party to function as a unit?

Arbane
2018-03-30, 04:13 PM
I recommend a cattle prod. For the PLAYERS, not the characters.

Semi-seriously, just how LOLrandom are these guys? Are they the sort to roll dice to see which side they're on every round of a combat, or do they just really not like taking orders and being honest citizens?

Nifft
2018-03-30, 04:26 PM
Are these players people you like & respect?

Or are they the types who abuse the game's social contract and the CN alignment to be evil psychos because "that's what my character would do"?

Because in the former case, you've got a future of compromises with freedom-fighters, but they aren't evil psychos so you can plausibly find common ground and it might be fun.

In the latter case, you might be up a creek.

8BitNinja
2018-03-30, 04:32 PM
I recommend a cattle prod. For the PLAYERS, not the characters.

Semi-seriously, just how LOLrandom are these guys? Are they the sort to roll dice to see which side they're on every round of a combat, or do they just really not like taking orders and being honest citizens?

While the CG character is more of a "Don't Tread on Me" kind of character. He doesn't necessarily break the law constantly, he just doesn't want people telling him what to do. I am not worried as much about him.

The others indiscriminately kill, steal, destroy, and vandalize everything around them. The wizard is so much of a sociopath, he might as well be CE.

It should also be noted that the three CN characters are younger and more immature. (gaming wise, not mentally. They treat every game that allows agency as if it's GTA)

Nifft
2018-03-30, 04:36 PM
The others indiscriminately kill, steal, destroy, and vandalize everything around them. The wizard is so much of a sociopath, he might as well be CE.

It should also be noted that the three CN characters are younger and more immature. (gaming wise, not mentally. They treat every game that allows agency as if it's GTA)

I recommend smiting evil.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-03-30, 04:42 PM
Go with the flow? If you're the odd man out then maybe you're the problem.

DeTess
2018-03-30, 04:42 PM
The others indiscriminately kill, steal, destroy, and vandalize everything around them. The wizard is so much of a sociopath, he might as well be CE.

It should also be noted that the three CN characters are younger and more immature. (gaming wise, not mentally. They treat every game that allows agency as if it's GTA)

Maybe inform them that this behaviour belongs to the Chaotic evil alginment, and start having the universe treat them as such?

Otherwise, I suggest starting over and holding a session 0 before everyone makes characters to figure out how everyone will be working together, as your description makes me think this'll be a mess unless everyone is fine with GTA-style mucking around.

Arbane
2018-03-30, 05:40 PM
The others indiscriminately kill, steal, destroy, and vandalize everything around them. The wizard is so much of a sociopath, he might as well be CE.

It should also be noted that the three CN characters are younger and more immature. (gaming wise, not mentally. They treat every game that allows agency as if it's GTA)

O_O

A paladin in the same group with a trio of Belkar-wannabes? Skip Pathfinder, go straight to playing Fiasco, because that's where this game is gonna go. I strongly recommend either hitting the eject button NOW, or optimizing your character for the inevitable PvP and bracing yourself for a lot of hurt feelings all around.

This is not going to go well.

Honest Tiefling
2018-03-30, 07:19 PM
Otherwise, I suggest starting over and holding a session 0 before everyone makes characters to figure out how everyone will be working together, as your description makes me think this'll be a mess unless everyone is fine with GTA-style mucking around.

Pretty much this. They might not really get what they are doing might be disruptive, why are loot bags here if not to loot them? Sure, they talk a bit, but a good application of sword fixes that faster than a Diablo character can run from Deckard Cain asking them to stay a while.

Do...Do they even KNOW what roleplaying is? You did say they were new!

Else, consider two games even if you have to run one for two different styles.

8BitNinja
2018-03-30, 11:32 PM
Are these players people you like & respect?

Or are they the types who abuse the game's social contract and the CN alignment to be evil psychos because "that's what my character would do"?

Because in the former case, you've got a future of compromises with freedom-fighters, but they aren't evil psychos so you can plausibly find common ground and it might be fun.

In the latter case, you might be up a creek.

We're all good friends. They're just new and think that every alignment has to be played as if the character is an extra planar being.

But like others have said, we have three Belkar wannabes, and two Lawful Good characters. Those odds don't look so good.

Also, I don't hate games that involve mayhem and lawbreaking. The problem is the (in character) ideological friction and the fact that the DM is having hard time working with these people.

Speaking of that, another nugget of information to be mentioned is that the DM running this ran their first campaign.

8BitNinja
2018-03-30, 11:47 PM
I recommend smiting evil.

I'm going to save most of my smite evils for self defense.


Go with the flow? If you're the odd man out then maybe you're the problem.

Thanks for the advice.

I hope I don't devolve this thread into an alignment argument, but the problem the DM, both my brother, and my more experienced friend (who just so happens to be the barbarian, and prefer chaotics to lawfuls) have with a majority chaotic party is that since chaos is based on disorder and operating as an individual it has a full party of them has a very difficult time working together.


Maybe inform them that this behaviour belongs to the Chaotic evil alginment, and start having the universe treat them as such?

Otherwise, I suggest starting over and holding a session 0 before everyone makes characters to figure out how everyone will be working together, as your description makes me think this'll be a mess unless everyone is fine with GTA-style mucking around.

We haven't started yet, so maybe the DM might straighten everything out. If not, maybe we can find goals that line up.


O_O

A paladin in the same group with a trio of Belkar-wannabes? Skip Pathfinder, go straight to playing Fiasco, because that's where this game is gonna go. I strongly recommend either hitting the eject button NOW, or optimizing your character for the inevitable PvP and bracing yourself for a lot of hurt feelings all around.

This is not going to go well.

Already being done, the cleric is going to be taking the domains of healing and law and I'm looking for feats specifically for PvP with them.

Nightcanon
2018-03-31, 05:25 AM
If you're up for PvP, and are planning for it as you say, go for it. If you see intra-party conflict as a problem, perhaps now is the time to spread your role-playing wings a bit and play something other than a LG paladin?
I do sympathise with you: I tend towards LG/ NG myself, and find the whole "my character's motivation is to kill things and have a good time" thing pretty tedious. What about creating a more nuanced CN character who breaks free from the murder hobo mould?

jayem
2018-03-31, 05:57 AM
I'm going to save most of my smite evils for self defense.
Already being done, the cleric is going to be taking the domains of healing and law and I'm looking for feats specifically for PvP with them.
Is that at risk of proving that PvP is inevitable/fun, and training them to do it?
It does seem to be the behaviour that many people would complain if it was another player.


Is there a way you can soften the Paladin conflict in an interesting way.
Either be a CG/CN/NG character with an ambition that they can follow (a Robin Hood rather than a Templer).
Or a LG character who can not help (with the cleric) when they are too GTAish, but can have a slightly less smite evil approach during the bad times, and work together during the good.
[basically trying to give specific variants of the post above]

8BitNinja
2018-03-31, 10:29 AM
If you're up for PvP, and are planning for it as you say, go for it. If you see intra-party conflict as a problem, perhaps now is the time to spread your role-playing wings a bit and play something other than a LG paladin?
I do sympathise with you: I tend towards LG/ NG myself, and find the whole "my character's motivation is to kill things and have a good time" thing pretty tedious. What about creating a more nuanced CN character who breaks free from the murder hobo mould?

I like playing things other than an LG Paladin, and have done it many times. The thing is that it was an almost unanimous decision among the group that they actually wanted me to play a paladin, despite their alignment.


Is that at risk of proving that PvP is inevitable/fun, and training them to do it?
It does seem to be the behaviour that many people would complain if it was another player.


Is there a way you can soften the Paladin conflict in an interesting way.
Either be a CG/CN/NG character with an ambition that they can follow (a Robin Hood rather than a Templer).
Or a LG character who can not help (with the cleric) when they are too GTAish, but can have a slightly less smite evil approach during the bad times, and work together during the good.
[basically trying to give specific variants of the post above]

Sounds good. The problem I am mostly having is that it's hard to get chaotics in general to work together. Normally, I wouldn't worry since there would only be one or two of them. The reason I'm worrying is that I don't know how the majority of players in a game where you are supposed to be a team will turn out when half of them don't operate in groups.

Arbane
2018-03-31, 11:31 AM
Calling it now, your character's gonna get their throat cut first night out of town.

The Glyphstone
2018-03-31, 01:54 PM
Is a non LG paladin an option? you did say PF, but 3.5 had the CG paladin of freedom, which could be ported in rather painlessly.

King of Nowhere
2018-03-31, 02:07 PM
you mentioned that you're all good friends, and just for that it may work.

Regardless of anything that happens on the game table, try everyone to not take stuff personally. And smooth problems as they arise. That's all I can say. It does not have to be a disaster.

maybe those new guys will find out they like team play with other humans after all.

tensai_oni
2018-03-31, 03:13 PM
This is an OOC problem. Don't seek IC solutions for OOC problems.

All the players need to get together and create characters that can work as a single team - together. Also the CN part of the party needs the alignment system explained to them, because they got it all wrong.

But even in alignment-free systems, having half the party try to play responsibly while the others are lolsorandum murderhobos is a recipe for disaster. Decide on one playstyle, otherwise hurt feelings are inevitable. And a game that only results in hurt feelings and cracks appearing in friendships is not a game worth playing.

dps
2018-03-31, 06:13 PM
This is an OOC problem. Don't seek IC solutions for OOC problems.

All the players need to get together and create characters that can work as a single team - together. Also the CN part of the party needs the alignment system explained to them, because they got it all wrong.

But even in alignment-free systems, having half the party try to play responsibly while the others are lolsorandum murderhobos is a recipe for disaster. Decide on one playstyle, otherwise hurt feelings are inevitable. And a game that only results in hurt feelings and cracks appearing in friendships is not a game worth playing.

Yeah, I really think you need to just start over with a session 0, and get everybody on board with a playstyle. You are all friends already, so you should be able to come to some sort of accommodation.

jayem
2018-03-31, 06:15 PM
I like playing things other than an LG Paladin, and have done it many times. The thing is that it was an almost unanimous decision among the group that they actually wanted me to play a paladin, despite their alignment.



Sounds good. The problem I am mostly having is that it's hard to get chaotics in general to work together. Normally, I wouldn't worry since there would only be one or two of them. The reason I'm worrying is that I don't know how the majority of players in a game where you are supposed to be a team will turn out when half of them don't operate in groups.

That's why I was wondering about a Robin Hood esque visionary to direct their chaos onto a big scheme. Why are we robbing old ladies when we could be robbing the bank? (except that's a bit evil and your characters are mostly neutral/good). But that needs someone who leads chaos [from within].

If they've asked you to be a paladin, you might be able to ask to agree why you need them and they need you?
And to ask if how much PvP they want, how much 'jerkish' behaviour is acceptable, or agree you commit to not look too hard, while they don't do anything you can find out about.

Goaty14
2018-04-01, 12:48 AM
Meself likes the "Belkar Wannabes" metaphor -- in which case you need a solid "Roy Wannabe" to turn them in the right direction, and then set them loose, kind of like holding the leashes of a few rabid wolves, you need them to catch the right scent before setting them loose.

Problem is -- you first have to show them who's the boss... I recommend the cleric holding off on those Cure Light Wounds until they cooperate :smallsmile:

8BitNinja
2018-04-02, 10:18 PM
Meself likes the "Belkar Wannabes" metaphor -- in which case you need a solid "Roy Wannabe" to turn them in the right direction, and then set them loose, kind of like holding the leashes of a few rabid wolves, you need them to catch the right scent before setting them loose.

Problem is -- you first have to show them who's the boss... I recommend the cleric holding off on those Cure Light Wounds until they cooperate :smallsmile:

This is a great idea. In the time I was gone, we have actually devised a plan to use this.

ATHATH
2018-04-03, 12:02 AM
If you're having trouble being in a party with these friends without breaking your code but still want to be LG, might I suggest the Vindictive Bastard (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/vindictive-bastard-ex-paladin-archetype/) archetype? It's suboptimal, but as flavorful (and edgy) as a knife carved from a block of salt.

ReaderAt2046
2018-04-03, 06:58 AM
I don't think PvP is the solution here. It might be acceptable if all players involved agree to it and think it will make for a very interesting storyline, but in any other case it's a sign that something has gone very wrong. I would suggest talking it out with the players in question out of character. Get them to understand that they are going to have to at least pretend to play by the rules if the campaign isn't going to self-destruct. Basically, play Hallucinatory Lord Shojo to their Belkars.

Lord Torath
2018-04-03, 08:10 AM
I'd suggest to the DM that before you guys start playing, he has everyone comes up with reasons for their characters to be in the party, and reasons to work with the party. Especially for the Chaotic Neutrals to work with the Paladin and Cleric. They asked you to play a paladin, so the DM should have them come up with reasons to work with the paladin.

Have the DM explain that there will be realistic consequences for Murder-Hobo behavior, and there is no reason to assume that the local authorities will be push-overs. Also, that the good members of the party will have no patience for evil actions.

Best of luck to you! And let us know how it turns out!

8BitNinja
2018-04-03, 09:54 PM
I'd suggest to the DM that before you guys start playing, he has everyone comes up with reasons for their characters to be in the party, and reasons to work with the party. Especially for the Chaotic Neutrals to work with the Paladin and Cleric. They asked you to play a paladin, so the DM should have them come up with reasons to work with the paladin.

Have the DM explain that there will be realistic consequences for Murder-Hobo behavior, and there is no reason to assume that the local authorities will be push-overs. Also, that the good members of the party will have no patience for evil actions.

Best of luck to you! And let us know how it turns out!

I've taken your advice and I am currently in a conversation with the DM (over SnapChat, not in person).

Ironically enough, the bard in our party has the most probable reason for a CN to work with an LG. He lost a drunken bet and now has to go slay a dragon, and we are his most probable means of survival.

FreddyNoNose
2018-04-03, 11:04 PM
So in two weeks I'm joining a Pathfinder game with several friends and my brothers. While the DM, one of my brothers, and I have experience with TRPGs, the other 5 players have only played a single one shot campaign. These are the characters we have

LG Human Paladin
LG Human Cleric
NG Half Elf Bard
CG Human Barbarian
CN Elf Rogue
CN Half Orc Fighter
CN Catfolk Wizard

Now as you see here, there are 4 chaotic characters, and three chaotic neutrals. Do you know how we can get this party to function as a unit?

If your attitude sums up the majority, sounds like problems. And why are the lawfuls the "right" ones and the others the bad immature players?

It will work itself out. Doesn't mean they will be happy.

In one of the best campaigns I played in The Great Late Craig Rickman, we had 12 or 13 regular players and as many as 18. All non-evil alignments were represented. You can be CN and do what is best for you and good for the group.

bc56
2018-04-04, 08:23 AM
This is why I say that alignment is a trapezoid, not a square. The difference between an LN and an LE is greater than the difference between a CN and a CE (law is the wide end of the trapezoid). People just seem to use "I'm chaotic" as an excuse to drop their actual alignment a step closer to evil than they claim it is. CN shouldn't be "I do what I want, and let the world burn," because CE is "Let the world burn."

Needless to say, I don't like CN characters in my game, because of this.

For the record, Belkar is CE. If the Belkar impersonators are familiar with the comic, tell them that they're acting like Belkar, and therefore CE.

SirGraystone
2018-04-04, 09:48 AM
Chaotic Neutral is a strange beast, not exactly evil, but too often use to do anything they please without limit. That sometime can quickly become a problem if the DM or the rest of the players don't like to play that way.

But those missing limits can be made by the DM, for example murdering merchant in town should bring guards, and if they are not often more powerful reinforcement, bounty hunter or others adventurer to find criminal and have him jailed or hanged. Have them learn that action have reaction.

The same as your paladin may have to explain to them, that no they can't kill that prisonner that surrender to the group. You are the one that have to draw the line for them, which can make great roleplay if you have the right players.

I have a yuan-ti sorcerer (mostly chaotic good) while not a murderhobos, doesn't have a problem with casting sleep on goblins then cutting their throats while they are unconscious. She doesn't specially like killing but she doesn't plan to risk her life by letting enemies alive either. Which our much more moral paladin don't agree with, so far the sorcerer have listen to the paladin, but we had interesting talk about it. Not sure how the paladin will react when I start using suggestion against NPC (one of the reason I took subtle magic was to cast it without the paladin knowledge)

So in the end, my advice would be to stop worrying about it for now, start playing and see first if its a problem or not.