"Beefed Up" Magic Initiate

[Arkhios]

What if, instead of two cantrips and one 1st-level spell once per long rest, Magic Initiate would give one cantrip and one 2nd-level spell once per long rest? Or no cantrips at all, but still one 2nd-level spell?

Note, that Cantrips scale over character level, while (some) spells scale only when cast from a spell slot higher than their initial level.

Would either one of those options above be balanced?

[bid]

Note, that Cantrips scale over character level, while (some) spells scale only when cast from a spell slot higher than their initial level.
And those (damage) cantrips still scale below weapon damage. I don't see how removing cantrips and their scaling could be an argument for getting a 2nd level spell.

I'd rather look at racial feats that add or improve racial spells. That'd be a stronger basis.

[MaxWilson]

What if, instead of two cantrips and one 1st-level spell once per long rest, Magic Initiate would give one cantrip and one 2nd-level spell once per long rest? Or no cantrips at all, but still one 2nd-level spell?

Note, that Cantrips scale over character level, while (some) spells scale only when cast from a spell slot higher than their initial level.

Would either one of those options above be balanced?

It would be as "balanced" as the 5E spell list, which is to say, not very.

The first thing that comes to mind is Magic Initiate: Find Steed.

[The Jack]

Nah.

Only way I'd like to improve magic initiate is if it was explicitly stated you could take it more than once, and if you used the same class then their slots would be interchangeable. Maybe the third time you took it you could have a second level slot.


Consider ritual caster.

[BaratheonFury]

It would be as "balanced" as the 5E spell list, which is to say, not very.

The first thing that comes to mind is Magic Initiate: Find Steed.

Magic initiate is restricted to full casters only, so paladin spells would be off limits for the feat anyways.

As for the trade itself, I agree with Bid that the racial feats, or even the dragonmarked feats might provide a better base.

[MaxWilson]

Magic initiate is restricted to full casters only, so paladin spells would be off limits for the feat anyways.

Mmmm. Good point. In that case, Magic Initiate: Healing Spirit is the next thing that comes to mind.

[NecroDancer]

Maybe for magic initiate remove the Cantrips and give you 2 First Level Spells?

Honestly I think ritual caster is a better choice by far.

[Wisefool]

Take a look at the UA: Eberron. In it is a feat called Dragonmark, which is basically a souped up Magic Initiate.

The dragonmark feat is based of Eberron's Dragonmark houses. It gives the character a cantrip and a 1st level spell that can be cast 1/day. At 5th level, the character gains a 1/day 2nd level spell and a 1/day 3rd level spell at 9th level. Each dragonmark house has a specialty, and the spells fit that theme, but are unfortunately locked by race. So if you wanted to grab the Healing dragonmark, you better have a halfling for your character.

But it also mentions "aberrant" dragonmarks that aren't tied to the houses and have a variety of effects. This is basically a customized dragonmark. The UA also says to take the MI feat for an aberrant dragonmark. However, my DM agreed to let me follow the same formula as the house dragonmarks for my aberrant mark.

[sambojin]

In some respects, I don't really think it would break the system, even if you cherry picked really good spells as a dragon mark, or as a "pick any 2nd lvl spell". Not that it wouldn't be more powerful than the original versions, it's just that one 2nd level spell a day isn't *that* good.

Some would be amazing to have (Pass without Trace, Healing Spirit, etc), but it still is only one encounter a day. Plus, some races can get a surprising amount of free magic anyway (Delves, Firbolg, Welves, snakemen, sverblahs), and they're all considered quite balanced if not underpowered. Well, aside from snakes, but that's because of magic resistance, not the spells they can feat in.

[Matrix_Walker]

I think a Character level scaling type application like a Dragonmark is a fine addition to anyone's set of house rules!

And I don't think any second level spell once per long rest at the cost of a feat is really worth the price of admission, so I don't think it would be unbalanced or game-breaking to allow it. Yes, even Find Steed.

Edit: Well, Okay, Find Steed as a Feat is worth the price of Admission.

[strangebloke]

Magic initiate is among the very best feats in the game. It adds an a bucket of utility to just about any character, and it adds a lot of free damage for some classes, like the rogue.

Doesn't need a buff. But yeah, dragonmark would be the one to look at.

[Pex]

Mmmm. Good point. In that case, Magic Initiate: Healing Spirit is the next thing that comes to mind.

But is your problem really with Beefed Up Magic Initiate or Healing Spirit?

Would you have a problem if the player chose Scorching Ray or Phantasmal Force or Spiritual Weapon or Enhance Ability or Flaming Sphere or . . .? Your answer can be yes in which case a feat for a 2nd level spell is too much. If no then the problem is not with the proposed feat.

Personally I'm fine with Magic Initiate as it is.

[MaxWilson]

But is your problem really with Beefed Up Magic Initiate or Healing Spirit?

I'm not sure that I do have a "problem." The question I'm answering is, "Is it balanced?" and the answer to that question is, "Only as balanced as the second level spells are," i.e. not very. Doesn't necessarily mean I have a problem with it. I'm not that big on "balance" for its own sake in the first place, or I'd have already nerfed a bunch of spells (Pass Without Trace, Polymorph, Conjure Animals, Wall of Force...). I'm mostly into just playing the game as it's written until I get bored of it.


Would you have a problem if the player chose Scorching Ray or Phantasmal Force or Spiritual Weapon or Enhance Ability or Flaming Sphere or . . .? Your answer can be yes in which case a feat for a 2nd level spell is too much. If no then the problem is not with the proposed feat.

Personally I'm fine with Magic Initiate as it is.

[hymer]

Would either one of those options above be balanced?
My worry would mostly be for short campaigns, say playing levels 1-3, with a short duration of play at level 3. In those cases, I'd say it is about as problematic as VHumans with HAM. If not taken at level 1, and especially if played in a campaign that lasts, I'd be less worried about the balance of such a feat. I'd still be annoyed that an 'initiate' gets a second level spell, so if a player of mine wanted this, and I felt inclined to agree, I'd probably say that the feat had a requirement of casting first level spells from the class you'd be picking. Which could be achieved by taking the original feat.

[stoutstien]

I just allow the one spell to be used in other slots instead of once a day, making it more useful pick and bring it's power into the upper feat teir. Had a cleric take it for Shield and mage hand

[Beelzebubba]

What if, instead of two cantrips and one 1st-level spell once per long rest, Magic Initiate would give one cantrip and one 2nd-level spell once per long rest? Or no cantrips at all, but still one 2nd-level spell?

Note, that Cantrips scale over character level, while (some) spells scale only when cast from a spell slot higher than their initial level.

Would either one of those options above be balanced?

Well, it's balanced enough for Wood Elf Magic (cantrip, 1st level, and 2nd level spell) and for Fey Teleportation (+1 stat, language, and 2nd level spell).

I guess it depends on the spells. I think some maximizers would exploit the heck out of it.

[Foxhound438]

the big issue would be variant human to get a second level spell to throw off the balance of all your encounters for a good while. Maybe it's not so bad when you consider that second level spells aren't really that much stronger than first for the most part, but in some situations it would be (3x attack with scorching ray, healing spirit, flaming sphere, levitate seeing as how flying races are already annoying). My answer to this question is this:

Magic Adept
prequisite: magic initate, 13 in the casting stat for the class chosen with magic initiate
you learn an additional spell from the class you chose for magic initiate, or gain the ability to cast the spell you chose twice, and you learn one second level spell from that list which you can cast once per long rest. The new spells follow all the same guidelines as in the magic initiate feat.

this way you can only get it at fourth level at the earliest, and you would probably see it a little less in cases where a character wants to take casting stat independent spells (booming blade, shield, misty step) since now they can't dump the stat to a 10 or 8 for more con or whatever else while still having the benefit of spellcasting.

[danpit2991]

in a game we came up with a homebrew feat


MAGIC ADEPT
Prerequsite: magic initiate feat
exactly like magic initiate except you gain 1 second level spell and 1 first level spell and 1 cantrip from the same list as your initiate class
and it may be taken multiple times


has not broken anything yet


EDIT..... just read the post above mine we had the same idea, maybe i should read all posts in a thread before i jump in lol

foxhound are you in big mikes game? its me Dan half orc champion

[Foxhound438]

in a game we came up with a homebrew feat


MAGIC ADEPT
Prerequsite: magic initiate feat
exactly like magic initiate except you gain 1 second level spell and 1 first level spell and 1 cantrip from the same list as your initiate class
and it may be taken multiple times


has not broken anything yet


EDIT..... just read the post above mine we had the same idea, maybe i should read all posts in a thread before i jump in lol

foxhound are you in big mikes game? its me Dan half orc champion

No, but it's pretty funny we have pretty much the same idea though

[danpit2991]

No, but it's pretty funny we have pretty much the same idea though

it came from me wanting some more spells than magic initiate could give me and i didnt want to multiclass


i thought you might be my buddy collin he has hounds lol

[bid]

Well, it's balanced enough for Wood Elf Magic (cantrip, 1st level, and 2nd level spell) and for Fey Teleportation (+1 stat, language, and 2nd level spell).
Which is great for a level 4 character, since druids can cast those at level 3.

I guess the main problem would be vuman. OTOH, you reach level 4 pretty fast.

[Beelzebubba]

I guess the main problem would be vuman.

Isn't it always? :smallwink:

[JNAProductions]

Isn't it always? :smallwink:

No. VHuman is nice, but not game-breaking or anything. It's a good choice for any class, and most niches, but usually NOT the best.

[djreynolds]

What if, instead of two cantrips and one 1st-level spell once per long rest, Magic Initiate would give one cantrip and one 2nd-level spell once per long rest? Or no cantrips at all, but still one 2nd-level spell?

Note, that Cantrips scale over character level, while (some) spells scale only when cast from a spell slot higher than their initial level.

Would either one of those options above be balanced?

It's not a bad idea, similar to drow getting levitate, like Drow High Magic

It could be tailored in such a fashion, like a combo of magic initiate/ (Race) High Magic for a particular 2nd level signature spell like darkness, levitation, misty step, etc.

I would definitely try to limit the selection and just call it High Magic (a new feat) and nothing that a ranger or paladin could get to include stuff like silence, find steed, spike growth, pass without a trace, or calm emotions, etc. just because it would one more reason not to play a ranger

[Garresh]

Magic Initiate is already amazing as hell. But if you want to boost it a better way would be to let the slot scale at half caster rate. So if you take Magic Missile for instance, by level 20 you cast it as a 5th level spell.

[Psikerlord]

What if, instead of two cantrips and one 1st-level spell once per long rest, Magic Initiate would give one cantrip and one 2nd-level spell once per long rest? Or no cantrips at all, but still one 2nd-level spell?

Note, that Cantrips scale over character level, while (some) spells scale only when cast from a spell slot higher than their initial level.

Would either one of those options above be balanced?

I would say either of these options would be fine for a custom feat in 5e, which is high magic after all. Might depend on what cantrip and what spell, exactly. But overall a feat is a big investment; the ability gained should be substantial.

[Asmotherion]

Mechanically it's ok, but thematically not so much. And I'd still rather go for the Cantrips though. You can't really grasp 2nd level spells if you don't understand the basics of magic, like you can't understand equations if you can't understand basic mathematic operations first etc. Magic is treated like a natural Science in D&D, even having it be governed by an int skill (Arcana). You could argue for what was known in past editions as a "spell-like ability" that is not a spell, but replicates the mechanic effects of a spell though.

It should be noted that, in the original D&D next playtest material (the equivalent of 5e Unearthed Arcana), there used to be a Feat Chain starting with Magic Initiate, that allowed you to take more spells from higher levels from the spell list you chose on your original Magic Initiate selection. In the end, 5e decided to get rid of Feat Chains it would seem, but DM custom feats are still up to the table, and if anything, this seems like the "suggested way" to go.

Otherwise, a package of a specifically selected Cantrip, 1st Level spell and 2nd Level Spell could also work, with some limitations, and some adjustments for thematic use.

Example:
Arcane Spy
Prerequisits: Able to cast 2nd level spells.
You learn the Friends cantrip and the Disguise Self and Alter Self spells. Once per Long Rest, you can cast each spell once without using a spell slot. You can cast them normally using a spell slot afterwards.