Dispel Magic and "sacrificial" buffs

[Arkain]

Recently, I've seen suggestions to protect one's buffs by essentially using other buffs as sacrifices. So I've been trying to wrap my head around it, but I either don't get it or misunderstand dispelling.
(Also, sorry for being unable to provide examples, but I currently can't post links due to an abysmally low post count, yay. A very recent version would be post #4 in Braininthejar2's
"protecting buffs from dispel".)

[edit] Yeah well, might quote, even though I can't link at this moment. Silly me.

You can 'dilute the pool' so to speak by placing worthless, but long term spells on the buff target.

Arcane Mark is a great example; its even better if you can get a few Arcane Marks to be just one caster level higher than other buffs on the target, as Dispel targets highest caster level spell first.

Now, going by the SRD the 3.5 version says


Targeted Dispel

One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect. [...]

Area Dispel

When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected. [...]

In other words, make the check, compare to spells on target(s), check if you've dispelled anything. So if you have a "sacrificial" buff active with a higher caster level (because those are targeted first) it works until the moment it's more likely to not be dispelled. Dispelling continues and moves on to your other buffs, which are slightly diluted and thus actually more lightly to be dispelled.
So I can see it working for area dispelling if and only if your sacrifice is actually dispelled, saving one of your other buffs. The odds are that your sacrifice stays on and one of the other buffs cast at lower caster level is dispelled instead, though.

Pathfinder version says


Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell’s caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.

For example, a 7th-level caster casts dispel magic, targeting a creature affected by stoneskin (caster level 12th) and fly (caster level 6th). The caster level check results in a 19. This check is not high enough to end the stoneskin (which would have required a 23 or higher), but it is high enough to end the fly (which only required a 17). Had the dispel check resulted in a 23 or higher, the stoneskin would have been dispelled, leaving the fly intact. Had the dispel check been a 16 or less, no spells would have been affected. [...]

[Actually from Greater Dispel Magic] Area Dispel: When greater dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot-radius burst. Roll one dispel check and apply that check to each creature in the area, as if targeted by dispel magic. For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, apply the dispel check as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the greater dispel magic spell, apply the dispel check to dispel the spell. For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the greater dispel magic spell, apply the dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area. [...]

Okay, some rule changes aside it seems similar enough: your sacrifice is either dispelled (then it worked, at least for normal Dispel Magic) or not, in which case the process continues. You even have an explicit example where the spell with the highest caster level isn't dispelled, i.e. you better hope for your sacrifice to be affected, which is slightly more unlikely in comparison to the intentionally weaker spells. I'm afraid you're kinda out of luck anyhow if hit by the greater version.

So, have I missed or misunderstood something? If not, I don't really see the point in weakening all but one spell in general in basically all respects.

[Coventry]

Let's see if I get this one right ... I am using the Pathfinder versions of the spells, but the logic is similar in 3.5:

Dispel Magic

Assume the "real" buff spell was cast by caster level 10 (Dispel DC: 21), while the "sacrificial" buff was caster level 11 (Dispel DC 22). Dispel Magic is cast by an enemy 11th level caster.



Die roll
Dispel check
Result


1-9
less than 21
nothing dispelled


10
21
the real buff dispelled


11-20
greater than 21
the sacrificial buff dispelled, the real buff lingers on



Now, imagine an enemy caster of level 20 doing the same thing



Die roll
Dispel check
Result


(not possible)
less than 21
nothing dispelled


1
21
the real buff dispelled


2-20
greater than 21
the sacrificial buff dispelled, the real buff lingers on




Greater Dispel Magic

With a targeted dispel, Greater Dispel can "can dispel one spell for every four caster levels ", so the 11th level caster can take out two spells (the sacrificial spell and the first real), while the 20th level caster can take out five.

With the area dispel option, though, the text of the spell says: "Roll one dispel check and apply that check to each creature in the area, as if targeted by Dispel Magic.". That part I highlighted means the rules for the basic Dispel Magic are what applies to creatures - so again, only one buff can be knocked off a creature.

Area Dispel goes on to say For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the greater dispel magic spell, apply the dispel check to dispel the spell., but that does not apply to the remaining buffs on creatures - it is, instead, for those spells like Fog Cloud (area) or Wall of Fire (effect) that stick around for a while.

[Eldariel]

The idea is indeed against area dispel and with a small impact buff to give you an extra chance to counter it. Free bonus, more or less (more efficient in PF, which nerfed Dispel something fierce and GDM moderately). Targeted 3.5 Dispel is a whole other other beast but of course, the usual options of buffing your caster level before casting buffs (particularly temporary buffs like Beads of Karma and Ankh of Ascension, as well as anti-Dispel tools like Ring of Enduring Arcana, are highly efficient as they're hard to replicate mid-combat while casting Dispel, and Dispel Magic is caster level capped anyways), preparing specifically against dispel (Ring of Counterspells with GDM cast in it) and things like Battlemagic Perception tend to suffice for protection. However, Chain Spell GDM hitting all your items and you last is still a pain as you lose all your nice item bonuses for 1d4 even if you're protected, and 1d4 rounds can be the whole fight.

[Uncle Pine]

I believe the idea goes as follow: if you have one sacrificial buff (i.e. one Arcane Mark) on you at +1 CL compared to all your other buffs, it is indees unlikely that single buff will do a good job at protecting your other buffs from an area dispel*. However, a very basic 5th-level Wizard with 13 Int and any CL booster (Reserves of Strength works wonderfully) has 4 0th-, 4 1st-, 2 2nd-, and 1 3rd-level spell slots, which means that with just 2 days of preparation at some point before the adventure he can have 22 sacrificial Arcane Marks cast on himself at +1 CL or more. Assuming an enemy spellcaster of equal level tries to target him with an area dispel, making a 1d20+5 dispel check against DC 16, the chances for the spellcaster to not dispel any of the 22 Arcane Marks is 0.00002384185791015625%, which is pretty darn unlikely.


*Targeted dispels are handled by spending 6,000 gp to make your weapon of choice a spellblade of Dispel Magic (Player's Guide to Faerun). Note that this only protects you from Dispel Magic, you'll need to spend 6,000 more for each other spell you want to be explicitly protected from.

[Psyren]

Before discussing the "trick" itself - since you're bringing up both dispel versions it's helpful to spell out what the differences between them are.

In 3.5, Dispel Magic and GDM work exactly the same, the latter just has a bigger bonus and has a chance of dealing with curses. Both grades can be used to do targeted and area dispels, and for both, a targeted dispel will (try to) hit every magic spell - buff or debuff - on the target. In other words, in 3.5, "sacrificial buffs" are pointless if your opponent is using a targeted dispel. That leaves area dispels, which also work the same - here, 3.5 DM/GDM will both start at the highest caster level buff on the target, and stop the first time they successfully dispel something. This leaves you with a small conundrum to make the trick work - ideally you want decoy buffs that are high enough CL that they get checked first (i.e. ahead of the buff you're trying to protect), but low enough that your opponent's dispel check won't simply fail and skip over them entirely before landing on the real thing. Pump them too high and your enemy's dispel will just fail and ignore them; but make them too low and they will end up behind your real buffs in line. This is compounded by the fact that, in most cases, you want your real buffs to have as high a CL as possible so they can last through multiple fights.

In Pathfinder meanwhile, regular Dispel Magic can only do targeted, and it will stop the first time it hits something it can remove (like area dispels in 3.5 work.) Here again, failure=skip, so your "decoy buff(s)" need to be as close as possible in CL to the thing you're trying to protect; GDM meanwhile can do both area and targeted, but the targeted will attempt to strip multiple buffs. Not all of them, so "decoys" can work, but you'll need enough to absorb all the attempts, otherwise you're right back to it being pointless.


So to summarize:

3.5 Targeted Regular Dispel = "Decoy buffs" won't work at all (everything gets hit regardless.)
3.5 Area Regular Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher.
3.5 Targeted Greater Dispel = "Decoy buffs" won't work at all (everything gets hit regardless.)
3.5 Area Greater Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher.

PF Targeted Regular Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher.
PF Area Regular Dispel = Doesn't exist.
PF Targeted Greater Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher, and you need at least one of them for every 4 caster levels your dispelling foe has., otherwise your "real" buffs are vulnerable anyway.
PF Area Greater Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher.

[ericgrau]

The problem I see with arcane mark is that it isn't a buff, and isn't affecting the creature it is written on. Piling on a bunch of endure elements could work. Healthful rest works even better for a party: level 1, 24 hours and it chains. Only bard/cleric/druid though. Magic mouth is a permanent spell you can cast on creatures, and it's only 10 gp a pop. Also can be popped now and then for humor, to keep watch, etc. Marked object is level 2 for most classes but the duration is 24 hours per level and in spite of the name the caster is the target.

But yeah, boost your caster level for targeted dispel.

Dispel baiting is also a thing to consider, whether in character (enemies find out about buffs in world) or out of character (DM using meta knowledge). Even if you yourself are loaded with buffs and a boosted caster level to protect them, you might make an ally a tempting target with your spare spells. Wasting a caster's turn is very powerful.

[Goaty14]

The problem I see with arcane mark is that it isn't a buff

You're right, arcane mark isn't a buff, it's a spell. However, I have yet to find a version of dispel magic that targets only buffs... It's an effect of a spell on the caster, and thus is a viable target for dispel magic. Sure, he may be wasting off his very limited (save Pathfinder) cantrips, but it sure beats your actual buffs getting knocked out.

[Arkain]

The idea is indeed against area dispel and with a small impact buff to give you an extra chance to counter it. Free bonus, more or less (more efficient in PF, which nerfed Dispel something fierce and GDM moderately). Targeted 3.5 Dispel is a whole other other beast but of course, the usual options of buffing your caster level before casting buffs (particularly temporary buffs like Beads of Karma and Ankh of Ascension, as well as anti-Dispel tools like Ring of Enduring Arcana, are highly efficient as they're hard to replicate mid-combat while casting Dispel, and Dispel Magic is caster level capped anyways), preparing specifically against dispel (Ring of Counterspells with GDM cast in it) and things like Battlemagic Perception tend to suffice for protection. However, Chain Spell GDM hitting all your items and you last is still a pain as you lose all your nice item bonuses for 1d4 even if you're protected, and 1d4 rounds can be the whole fight.

True.


I believe the idea goes as follow: if you have one sacrificial buff (i.e. one Arcane Mark) on you at +1 CL compared to all your other buffs, it is indees unlikely that single buff will do a good job at protecting your other buffs from an area dispel*. However, a very basic 5th-level Wizard with 13 Int and any CL booster (Reserves of Strength works wonderfully) has 4 0th-, 4 1st-, 2 2nd-, and 1 3rd-level spell slots, which means that with just 2 days of preparation at some point before the adventure he can have 22 sacrificial Arcane Marks cast on himself at +1 CL or more. Assuming an enemy spellcaster of equal level tries to target him with an area dispel, making a 1d20+5 dispel check against DC 16, the chances for the spellcaster to not dispel any of the 22 Arcane Marks is 0.00002384185791015625%, which is pretty darn unlikely.


*Targeted dispels are handled by spending 6,000 gp to make your weapon of choice a spellblade of Dispel Magic (Player's Guide to Faerun). Note that this only protects you from Dispel Magic, you'll need to spend 6,000 more for each other spell you want to be explicitly protected from.

Originally, I was going to ponder whether you make several checks or only one, but then I didn't. In my reading I'd make only one roll (essentially as per PF, even if playing 3.5) and compare that to everything. So I don't care if there's 75 CL 13 buffs to compare to before the 20 CL 12 buffs, if I don't dispel the CL 13 I move on, no further checks needed - which also adds to game speed and convenience, really. If you don't read the spell that way you can certainly hide yourself behind a dozen decoys.


Before discussing the "trick" itself - since you're bringing up both dispel versions it's helpful to spell out what the differences between them are.

In 3.5, Dispel Magic and GDM work exactly the same, the latter just has a bigger bonus and has a chance of dealing with curses. Both grades can be used to do targeted and area dispels, and for both, a targeted dispel will (try to) hit every magic spell - buff or debuff - on the target. In other words, in 3.5, "sacrificial buffs" are pointless if your opponent is using a targeted dispel. That leaves area dispels, which also work the same - here, 3.5 DM/GDM will both start at the highest caster level buff on the target, and stop the first time they successfully dispel something. This leaves you with a small conundrum to make the trick work - ideally you want decoy buffs that are high enough CL that they get checked first (i.e. ahead of the buff you're trying to protect), but low enough that your opponent's dispel check won't simply fail and skip over them entirely before landing on the real thing. Pump them too high and your enemy's dispel will just fail and ignore them; but make them too low and they will end up behind your real buffs in line. This is compounded by the fact that, in most cases, you want your real buffs to have as high a CL as possible so they can last through multiple fights.

In Pathfinder meanwhile, regular Dispel Magic can only do targeted, and it will stop the first time it hits something it can remove (like area dispels in 3.5 work.) Here again, failure=skip, so your "decoy buff(s)" need to be as close as possible in CL to the thing you're trying to protect; GDM meanwhile can do both area and targeted, but the targeted will attempt to strip multiple buffs. Not all of them, so "decoys" can work, but you'll need enough to absorb all the attempts, otherwise you're right back to it being pointless.


So to summarize:

3.5 Targeted Regular Dispel = "Decoy buffs" won't work at all (everything gets hit regardless.)
3.5 Area Regular Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher.
3.5 Targeted Greater Dispel = "Decoy buffs" won't work at all (everything gets hit regardless.)
3.5 Area Greater Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher.

PF Targeted Regular Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher.
PF Area Regular Dispel = Doesn't exist.
PF Targeted Greater Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher, and you need at least one of them for every 4 caster levels your dispelling foe has., otherwise
PF Area Greater Dispel = "Decoy buffs" can work, but need to be as close in level to your real ones while still being higher.

Great summary of results and the entire problem, really.


The problem I see with arcane mark is that it isn't a buff, and isn't affecting the creature it is written on. Piling on a bunch of endure elements could work. Healthful rest works even better for a party: level 1, 24 hours and it chains. Only bard/cleric/druid though. Magic mouth is a permanent spell you can cast on creatures, and it's only 10 gp a pop. Also can be popped now and then for humor, to keep watch, etc. Marked object is level 2 for most classes but the duration is 24 hours per level and in spite of the name the caster is the target.

But yeah, boost your caster level for targeted dispel.

Dispel baiting is also a thing to consider, whether in character (enemies find out about buffs in world) or out of character (DM using meta knowledge). Even if you yourself are loaded with buffs and a boosted caster level to protect them, you might make an ally a tempting target with your spare spells. Wasting a caster's turn is very powerful.

Whether the example works if of course an entirely different matter. I can just imagine other party members commenting on particularly paranoid spellcasters casting Endure Elements over and over on themselves: "Guess they really hate cold weather?".

Haven't considered effectively "wasting" a caster's turn though, that's a very strong side effect, true.


I'm currently wondering how much, if at all, this whole thing belongs into the realms of TO, actually. I've certainly never thought about it as much, but then I tend to play in quite unoptimized groups anyway, for some reason or another.

[ericgrau]

You're right, arcane mark isn't a buff, it's a spell. However, I have yet to find a version of dispel magic that targets only buffs... It's an effect of a spell on the caster, and thus is a viable target for dispel magic. Sure, he may be wasting off his very limited (save Pathfinder) cantrips, but it sure beats your actual buffs getting knocked out.

And it isn't affecting the creature which is what dispel cares about and the 2nd half of that sentence.

[Uncle Pine]

Originally, I was going to ponder whether you make several checks or only one, but then I didn't. In my reading I'd make only one roll (essentially as per PF, even if playing 3.5) and compare that to everything. So I don't care if there's 75 CL 13 buffs to compare to before the 20 CL 12 buffs, if I don't dispel the CL 13 I move on, no further checks needed - which also adds to game speed and convenience, really. If you don't read the spell that way you can certainly hide yourself behind a dozen decoys.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about PF, but it's pretty explicit that in 3.5 you're supposed to roll a different dispel check against each effect (provided you're using an area dispel):

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.
Emphasis mine, note the plural. That said, it's perfectly fine if your group houserules dispel magic to work it another way, but you might want to have it spelt out to avoid confusion mid-combat in the future.


I'm currently wondering how much, if at all, this whole thing belongs into the realms of TO, actually. I've certainly never thought about it as much, but then I tend to play in quite unoptimized groups anyway, for some reason or another.
It's a simple precaution that can help to partially address a situation that might come up (area dispels, maybe targeted ones in PF) and doesn't require you to jump through several hoops. I don't think it's more TO than trying to always bring a 11' collapsible pole to partially address traps.


And it isn't affecting the creature which is what dispel cares about and the 2nd half of that sentence.
Actually, dispel magic works on ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, a category to which Arcane Mark belongs:

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

[Arkain]

I don't know about PF, but it's pretty explicit that in 3.5 you're supposed to roll a different dispel check against each effect (provided you're using an area dispel):

Emphasis mine, note the plural. That said, it's perfectly fine if your group houserules dispel magic to work it another way, but you might want to have it spelt out to avoid confusion mid-combat in the future.


It's a simple precaution that can help to partially address a situation that might come up (area dispels, maybe targeted ones in PF) and doesn't require you to jump through several hoops. I don't think it's more TO than trying to always bring a 11' collapsible pole to partially address traps.

Huh, you know, I really didn't notice that. It's even in the part I quoted :smalleek:


Probably, yes. The moment you start stacking specific spells several times in a row, I'm beginning to wonder though :3

[Jack_Simth]

Originally, I was going to ponder whether you make several checks or only one, but then I didn't. In my reading I'd make only one roll (essentially as per PF, even if playing 3.5) and compare that to everything. So I don't care if there's 75 CL 13 buffs to compare to before the 20 CL 12 buffs, if I don't dispel the CL 13 I move on, no further checks needed - which also adds to game speed and convenience, really. If you don't read the spell that way you can certainly hide yourself behind a dozen decoys.
Pathfinder's Dispel Magic and Greater counterpart still care how many spells they've got to get rid of. Sure, it's just the one check.. but suppose you've got some number of spells at 1 caster level higher than all your others, and I keep 10 copies of Read Magic running (easy in Pathfinder, as it's a 10 minute/level at-will for most classes that have it at all) at one caster level higher than my other buffs (by having an Implanted Orange Prism Ioun stone, and voluntearily reducing my caster level most the time), and someone casts Greater Dispel Magic....

Suppose I have a caster level of 11 (DC 22) for the Read Magic spells, and 10 for everything else (DC 21).

The opponent is caster level 16 for some reason (boss fight, maybe).
Greater Dispel Magic, targeted at me: Can kill up to four spells. Starts at the highest caster level (Read Magic)
Opponent rolls a d20, and the result is:

1-4: Results in 20 or less, so doesn't touch any of my spells.
5: Results in a 21, so destroys four of my actual buffs.
6-20: Results in 22 or above, so destroys four of my highest caster-level spells. Which are all Read Magic.

There's now a 5% chance of my actual buffs going away. And that's with a caster that has me pretty significantly outclassed. Suppose I do not do this trick, and keep my full caster level. I have a caster level of 11 for all my buffs. Same scenario otherwise:

1-5: Results in 21 or less, so doesn't touch any of my spells.
6-20: Results in 22 or above, so destroys four of my highest caster-level spells. Which are all buffs.

I now have a 75% chance of losing four buff spells. 75% > 5%


Now let's run the same thing, except this time we use an equal-level caster (normal fight):

Suppose I have a caster level of 11 (DC 22) for the Read Magic spells, and 10 for everything else (DC 21).

The opponent is caster level 11
Greater Dispel Magic, targeted at me: Can kill up to two spells. Starts at the highest caster level (Read Magic)
Opponent rolls a d20, and the result is:

1-9: Results in 20 or less, so doesn't touch any of my spells.
10: Results in a 21, so destroys two of my actual buffs.
11-20: Results in 22 or above, so destroys two of my highest caster-level spells. Which are all Read Magic.

Again: There's a 5% chance of my actual buffs going away. Suppose I do not do this trick, and keep my full caster level. I have a caster level of 11 for all my buffs. Same scenario otherwise:

1-10: Results in 21 or less, so doesn't touch any of my spells.
11-20: Results in 22 or above, so destroys two of my highest caster-level spells. Which are all buffs.

I now have a 50% chance of losing two buff spells. 50% > 5%

Let's run this again, with a caster below my level:

The opponent is caster level 6
Dispel Magic, targeted at me: Can kill up to one spell. Starts at the highest caster level (Read Magic)
Opponent rolls a d20, and the result is:

1-4: Results in 20 or less, so doesn't touch any of my spells.
15: Results in a 21, so destroys an actual buff.
16-20: Results in 22 or above, so destroys one of my highest caster-level spells. Which are all Read Magic.

Again: There's a 5% chance of my actual buffs going away. Suppose I do not do this trick, and keep my full caster level. I have a caster level of 11 for all my buffs. Same scenario otherwise:

1-16: Results in 21 or less, so doesn't touch any of my spells.
17-20: Results in 22 or above, so destroys one of my highest caster-level spells. Which are all buffs.

I now have a 20% chance of losing a buff spell. 20% > 5%.



So... In Pathfinder the only downside is that your buff spells are slightly weaker (shorter durations, less effect, et cetera). Nearly any caster that cares about long duration buffs can pull this off. The tactic remains viable up until Disjunction comes into play.