Ultimate Two-Weapon Fighting

[skywalker]

Okay, so, IIRC, there was a thread a couple of weeks ago about Two-Weapon Fighting. Now, I have done a manual search through the past few pages of the boards, and found nothing. I remember it being called "Ultimate Two-Weapon Fighting."

Now, I did, in fact, try the board search as well, but was foiled by the fact that "Two," Weapon," "Fighting," and "TWF" are all common words which are not included in the search.

Can someone point me to this thread(or, failing that, point me to a definitive TWF thread?)

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I remember it being called "Ultimate Two-Weapon Fighting."

I was able to find the following thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55499&highlight=%22Ultimate+Two-Weapon+Fighting%22) that matched that criteria. I might not be what you are looking for though...


Now, I did, in fact, try the board search as well, but was foiled by the fact that "Two," Weapon," "Fighting," and "TWF" are all common words which are not included in the search.

"Ultimate" did not yield anything either.


Can someone point me to this thread(or, failing that, point me to a definitive TWF thread?)


What is it that you would like to know?
Maybe we can recreate the magic and make this the ULTIMATE thread? (The title is already there, if you move the "?" at least.)

[Jasdoif]

Would you happen to be looking for this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53196)?

[skywalker]

Ah, no, none of those were it, I was just trying to recall all the little tidbits about Two-Weapon Fighting that I had heard, and am now realizing that there is no definitive collection of information about TWF that I know of(as opposed to something like TLN's wizard guide, although that is somewhat outdated). I myself do not have the chops to collect anything of the sort, although if you two distinguished playgrounders would care to contribute,

ALONG WITH ALL OTHERS. OPEN INVITATION.

I would certainly attempt to collect the info in the first post, a la most other "guides" I have seen. Thoughts?

This would also coincide well with the threads about the various ways to achieve sneak attack and the like.

[Sornjss Lichdom]

Well fighter is nice for the bonus feats and ranger is nice for the free feat, but I find just swinging around a couple of big swords is always fun. Gett some weapon focus and speacalition, improved two weapon fighting and know you dont even have a penaltie for oversized weapon in your off hand.

Oh and a deffending weapon is helpfull because of your lack of a shield. Though there are other ways to get around the lack of a shield, this is most feat efficant. Also if you look through tome of battle, complete war and scoundrel theres alot of good feats/ armor/ weapons enchantments in there to look at.

Another good thing to get is the spring attack feat, always nice to be able to get away from opponents after your done attacking them. Get a speed enhancement so you can get out of range.

[AtomicKitKat]

* Multiple Speed weapons don't/stack depending on who you ask.
* Ranger gets all the TWF/ITWF/GTWF feats for free without meeting pre-requisites(Useful if you need to lower Dex for other stats).
* Fighter gets enough Feats to cover TWF.
* Tempest is one of the few ways to lower/remove the -2/-2(or -4/-4) after you actually get the TWF Feat(from -6/-10 or -4/-8)
* Exotic Weapon Master is another(with paired light exotics).
* Dervish makes Scimitars count as light weapons. Loses the Power Attack option, but also lowers the penalties for TWF. Adds bonus damage, doubles the number of attacks once a day, and lets you full-attack if you have enough move speed. Generally considered all around the best.
* PHB2 has Two Weapon Rend and Two Weapon Pounce.
* Complete Adventurer has Oversized TWF, which lets you use One-handed weapons at Light Weapon Penalties, IIRC.
* Complete Adventurer also has Dual Strike(?) which basically lets you use both weapons together as a standard action(generally crappy. See below)
* Miniatures Handbook has Double-Hit, which lets you use both weapons whenever you would be allowed to use 1. Probably most useful for AoOs/chargers who cannot get pounce.
* Complete Champion alternative Barbarian loses Fast Movement and gets Pounce at 1st level.

That's pretty much all I got off the top of my head.

[Damionte]

There's no definitive list probably because two weapon fighting is pretty simple. Most of what you really need is in the players handbook.

The tree is long and just builds on itself.

The base two weapon fighting tree gives you more attacks.

The two weapon defense tree isn't worth taking.

Try to pair your weapons if at all possible rather than mix matching the weapons. You'll get more milage out of a pair of short swords than a longsword paired with a short sword.

Being a rogue TWFighter is more effective in most cases than being a warrior one.


General stuff like that. I think we don't talk much abou ttwo weapon fighting builds because they're so easy and simple to make.

[Zoraciel Ivtel]

I've been playing a fighter/thief with TWF (longsword & dagger), which works out really well because the thief's high Dex boosts your AC, making anything like a shield unnecessary, but still letting you do decent damage. But I'm glad to find this thread, since I've been looking for more feats to improve the character.

[Jack Mann]

Basically, the most important thing to think about with two-weapon fighting is bonus damage. Fighters are lousy at two-weapon fighting because they have no bonus damage. A two-weapon fighter will never be as good as a two-handed fighter. Wounding can kind of mitigate this, but not enough, and it's difficult to afford until you get a fair number of levels under your belt.

Core only, rogue's the best at two-weapon fighting, since they can get sneak-attack damage in with a flank. Rangers can be okay at it, provided their favored enemies come up fairly regularly.

Outside of core, you're looking for classes, prestige classes, and feats that give you bonus damage or reduce your penalties. I recommend swordsage as the base class. With the right boosts, they can get bonuses to all of their attacks in a round. The Shadow Blade feat can give them their dexterity bonus to damage with both weapons. And it lets you get into the bloodclaw master prestige class, which is the single best prestige class for two-weapon fighting. It removes the penalty for two-weapon fighting, and lets you get your full strength bonus on your off-hand. The only downside is that you have to use tiger claw weapons, or daggers. But that's not too big a downside for what you gain.

[AslanCross]

Outside of core, a Ranger may multiclass as a Scout and take the Swift Hunter feat, then resume taking ranger. Swift Hunter allows Ranger and Scout levels to stack for the purposes of Skirmish bonuses and Favored enemy bonuses. Add in at least six levels of the Wildrunner PrC (Races of the Wild) to allow the character to make a full attack action when charging. This gives the skirmish bonus to all attacks.

[Kurald Galain]

Play either 2nd or 4th edition, because in both TWF is significantly more useful than in 3rd.

[RTGoodman]

I think one of the builds I've seen before (and that I'm probably going to use at some point) is: Swashbuckler3/Fighter2/Dervish10/Tempest5 or something like that.

You should be able to qualify for the PrCs pretty easily (the only problem you might encounter could be getting enough ranks in Perform [Dance] to qualify for Dervish, but that can be solved by that Forgotten Realms regional feat that lets you choose one skill to always be a class skill for you). Also, it gives you Weapon Finesse for free (and thus Dex to attacks), a bunch feats, Int to damage, TWF with two scimitars, the ability to use WFn with scimitars, full BAB, pretty good saves (+13/+10/+9, if the math in my head is correct), the ability to make full attacks while you move, once per day to make double your number of attacks (which, realistically, could mean around 14 attacks in one round), and all sorts of other stuff.

[AtomicKitKat]

Fighter has Bonus Damage. It's just that it requires 4 Feats(which is still quite a lot, even for a Fighter), and specific weapons.:smallfrown:

Complete Warrior has stuff for fighting with different weapons, which allows for fancy tricks(including the potential for infinite attacks of Lightning Mace).

[Viscount Einstrauss]

TWF is best when you remember that it doesn't have to be a weapon in your other hand. Crack open Complete Scoundrel for access to hidden blades, specifically the knee blade. Now you're using the feat tree for an auxiliary attack that simply adds to your preexisting attack, which is, naturally, best serviced as a two-hander with power attack.

To make that work out best, I suggest using the ranger, ignoring dexterity, and pumping strength. Pick up the usual melee feats (power attack, leaping attack, shock trooper, etc), and you're best off being either a human for the extra feat or something like a half-orc for the extra strength. Your armor is a bit weaker then your standard THF fighter, but your damage output should be better thanks to picking up a second attack without really hampering your primary attack much (-2 attack for, eventually, three extra attacks? Yeah, I think I'm cool with that trade).

*special note* Consider working your way towards the Tempest prestige class to eliminate any disadvantages this fighting form might have and picking up some nifty combat perks. And the ability damage idea is just in general a fantastic way to get more mileage out of that knee blade. Especially if you opt for two different knee blades and enchant both of them differently depending on the ocassion. You could go further and add some boot blades as last resort weapons against foes immune to ability damage. There's a lot of modularity to the build.

[earlblue]

The most interesting two weapon fighting I came up with is the twin dagger whip...

Whip is rather interesting weapon. While hand held, they are considered to be ranged weapons. It is therefore entirely possible to not only apply the whole bunch two weapon fighting feats (ambidex, 2 weapon, improved 2 weapon, greater 2 weapon. etc. etc.). It is also possible to use the whole bunch of 'shots' feats (point blank shot, etc. etc.) I might have gotten the feat names wrong... but you get the idea.

Then there is the image. There is just something about two whips flashing around...

There is also the lasher class where the whip becomes a 'third' hand (or something like that). Image using one of the whip to throttle someone while whipping him/her to death... or grappling your target, hang him/her up and whipping him/her to death.

O'BeQuiet UWannaBe

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Whip counts as a reach weapon, not a ranged weapon. You can't use ranged feats on it.

From the SRD (www.d20srd.org)

The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack.

You're thinking of this line, also from the SRD-

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

[earlblue]

Whip counts as a reach weapon, not a ranged weapon. You can't use ranged feats on it.

From the SRD (www.d20srd.org)


You're thinking of this line, also from the SRD-

I stand corrected...

Still, it would still be a sight to behold, two flashing whips. Use leather whips... leather armor...

'nuff said!

O'BeQuiet UWannaBe

[Karsh]

Hm, what about a Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 5/Invisible Blade 5/Bloodclaw Master 2/Dervish 5? Change the Swordsage to the unarmed strike variant so that he gets DEX, WIS, and INT to AC, DEX to damage with Shadow Blade, INT to damage, 3d6 dagger sneak attack, feinting as a Free Action, 3 Dervish dances, +10 ft. fast movement, etc. etc.?

Use either Assassin's Stance to bump sneak attack up to 5d6 or Child of Shadow to gain concealment while Dervish dancing.

I might try and make this build. It intrigues me. We'll see if it's possible and then I'll post my findings. It has other potential as well; the only concern is if I'm going to have to dip two levels into Fighter for bonus feats.

[Kaelik]

Hm, what about a Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 5/Invisible Blade 5/Bloodclaw Master 2/Dervish 5? Change the Swordsage to the unarmed strike variant so that he gets DEX, WIS, and INT to AC, DEX to damage with Shadow Blade, INT to damage, 3d6 dagger sneak attack, feinting as a Free Action, 3 Dervish dances, +10 ft. fast movement, etc. etc.?

Use either Assassin's Stance to bump sneak attack up to 5d6 or Child of Shadow to gain concealment while Dervish dancing.

I might try and make this build. It intrigues me. We'll see if it's possible and then I'll post my findings. It has other potential as well; the only concern is if I'm going to have to dip two levels into Fighter for bonus feats.

Solve your problems in one go. Lose the Invisible Blade. Feinting was errataed to once a round, not good with your many attacks. And remove all those prereq feats and take Carmine Monk or Kung Fu Genius for Int to AC. Then grab more levels of Dervish or Sword Sage or BCM. I'm curious though, I read Dervish and it seems you only get full attacks during dances, why not grab a level of Barbarian to get pounce?

EDIT: and I don't think Dex to damage and Dervish sync all that well since you can't do the former with scimitars and the later isn't much better then levels of Barbarian or BCM.

[Karsh]

You use daggers. They're slashing weapons, so they count for the purposes of Dervish Dance.

I think the revised build will be:

Swashbuckler 3/Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Swordsage 3/Bloodclaw Master 2/Dervish 10.

That way we get Uncanny Dodge.

EDIT: Here's what I've got, using the build above. There's still a lot of money to distribute as you like:

http://www.rpgwebprofiler.net/view.php?id=61262

Basic damage is 1d4+1d6+24, attacks are at +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17

Pounce, Whirling Frenzy 1/day, Shift 1/day, and Dervish Dance 5/day, dervish dance gives +5 to hit and damage.

Each attack heals you 1d6 points of damage (Vampiric enhancement), and you can change the composition of the daggers as a standard action to Cold Iron, or silver, and they're already adamantine. Move action to switch out Truedeath or Demolition crystals to allow sneak attacks, critical hits, and precision damage vs. undead and constructs...

45 ft. Movement speed, and when you move more than 10 feet you gain concealment vs. attacks and +2 AC vs. all targets within 30 feet if you move more than 30 feet...

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but when Dervish dancing, and assuming all attacks hit, you will deal an average of about 252 damage + 7 CON damage with a 20% chance to critical on any given attack (or at least one per full attack, really), and you heal an average of nearly 25 damage a round, as well.

I'm sure someone can optimize the maneuvers far more effectively than I did... Seems like a pretty decent build, though.

[Talya]

You use daggers. They're slashing weapons, so they count for the purposes of Dervish Dance.

I think the revised build will be:

Swashbuckler 3/Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Swordsage 3/Bloodclaw Master 2/Dervish 10.

That way we get Uncanny Dodge.

EDIT: Here's what I've got, using the build above. There's still a lot of money to distribute as you like:

http://www.rpgwebprofiler.net/view.php?id=61262

Basic damage is 1d4+1d6+24, attacks are at +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17

Pounce, Whirling Frenzy 1/day, Shift 1/day, and Dervish Dance 5/day, dervish dance gives +5 to hit and damage.

Each attack heals you 1d6 points of damage (Vampiric enhancement), and you can change the composition of the daggers as a standard action to Cold Iron, or silver, and they're already adamantine. Move action to switch out Truedeath or Demolition crystals to allow sneak attacks, critical hits, and precision damage vs. undead and constructs...

45 ft. Movement speed, and when you move more than 10 feet you gain concealment vs. attacks and +2 AC vs. all targets within 30 feet if you move more than 30 feet...

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but when Dervish dancing, and assuming all attacks hit, you will deal an average of about 252 damage + 7 CON damage with a 20% chance to critical on any given attack (or at least one per full attack, really), and you heal an average of nearly 25 damage a round, as well.

I'm sure someone can optimize the maneuvers far more effectively than I did... Seems like a pretty decent build, though.


Neat. For style reasons, too bad it uses daggers (but it has to to work.)