REworking the Sleep spell. PEACH

[johnbragg]

Sleep is an encounter-ender at 1st level, but becomes irrelevant by 4th or 5th level. That's bad.
It's also a save-or-die, which is not great gameplay because it either ends the encounter, or it does nothing but waste a spell slot and a combat action.

Creating results other than complete success or complete failure. Whenever possible, I try to use what's already in the SRD or PHB. And fatigued and exhausted are right there. So our new spell requires a target to roll 3 saves. One failure means fatigued, two failures mean exhausted, three failures mean helpless (asleep).

1st level would be the single-target version. 3rd level would be the area effect version, the fireball of sleep spells, with a 20' radius.

[JNAProductions]

Sleep is an encounter-ender at 1st level, but becomes irrelevant by 4th or 5th level. That's bad.
It's also a save-or-die, which is not great gameplay because it either ends the encounter, or it does nothing but waste a spell slot and a combat action.

Creating results other than complete success or complete failure. Whenever possible, I try to use what's already in the SRD or PHB. And fatigued and exhausted are right there. So our new spell requires a target to roll 3 saves. One failure means fatigued, two failures mean exhausted, three failures mean helpless (asleep).

1st level would be the single-target version. 3rd level would be the area effect version, the fireball of sleep spells, with a 20' radius.

Sounds like what 4E did.

[retaliation08]

You could scale it similar to Color Spray.

2HD or fewer means Sleep.
3HD-4HD means Exhausted.
5HD+ means Fatigued

As you have it written with 3 saves, that is a lot of rolling for the DM. You can fit a lot of creatures in a 20ft. radius area. Rolling 3 times for each one will slow combat down a lot and could be overly confusing. Your idea is effective though, and maybe not that much more rolling than Color SPray.

[rferries]

You could scale it similar to Color Spray.

2HD or fewer means Sleep.
3HD-4HD means Exhausted.
5HD+ means Fatigued

As you have it written with 3 saves, that is a lot of rolling for the DM. You can fit a lot of creatures in a 20ft. radius area. Rolling 3 times for each one will slow combat down a lot and could be overly confusing. Your idea is effective though, and maybe not that much more rolling than Color SPray.

This is a great compromise!

[johnbragg]

Sounds like what 4E did.

I'll have to read that today. I have a thread on the 4E forum on what they'd take from 4E into another game, but maybe everyone else has just accepted D&D Sleep for what it is.


You could scale it similar to Color Spray.

2HD or fewer means Sleep.
3HD-4HD means Exhausted.
5HD+ means Fatigued

As you have it written with 3 saves, that is a lot of rolling for the DM. You can fit a lot of creatures in a 20ft. radius area. Rolling 3 times for each one will slow combat down a lot and could be overly confusing. Your idea is effective though, and maybe not that much more rolling than Color SPray.

I really don't like scaling-by-hit-die mechanics. A big dumb brute with a low Will save *should* be vulnerable to low-level enchantments. Ideally, the scaling would go from near-death at 1st level to mild-debuff at 6-7-8 level.

The Exhausted and Fatigued conditions are also a lot harder on martials than casters, and you've got a bunch of bookkeeping to deal with. And, unlike the classic Sleep spell, they're really hard to get rid of. "Daze" may be a better choice-- 2 saves: 1 failure is a one-round daze, 2 failures is "deeper daze", a longer-term daze (minute per CL? 10 minutes?) that is broken by a standard action (aid another). Unlike fatigue and exhaustion, "Daze classic" is self-limiting (1 round), and we can use the same rules to break "deeper daze" as "sleep classic". And, unlike "-2 to Str, Dex no run no charge" and "-6 to Str, Dex, half speed" and figuring out whether exhausted overlaps or stacks with fatigue, daze is really simple to adjudicate--it's on or off.

One change if we replace "sleep" with "deeper daze" would be that "dazed" does not mean "helpless", so a "deeper dazed" opponent with lots of hit points isn't vulnerable to a coup-de-grace. Which means it matters what the actual duration of the spell is (sleep is 1 minute/level, I don't see a reason to change that.)

I think I like the way this works out. If you can get a hill giant (will +4, 102 hit points) to fail a pair of Will saves, you have 1 minute per caster level to get through 102 hit points, assuming there's nothing else going on. If there are other things going on, then that's the life of a PC. Or the party can sneak past him, assuming they can do so without breaking the "deeper daze".

[aimlessPolymath]

I really don't like scaling-by-hit-die mechanics. A big dumb brute with a low Will save *should* be vulnerable to low-level enchantments. Ideally, the scaling would go from near-death at 1st level to mild-debuff at 6-7-8 level.
Hm...
Referencing the handy Pathfinder Bestiary with Statistics (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3), the median Will save between those levels varies by about 5 points.

I did some math, under the assumption that your average "dumb brute" is a standard deviation below average, and using a constant stat of 18 for the save DC.

From levels 1 to 8, my results were that someone with an average save will fail a given save-or-X saving throw of appropriate level about 60% of the time. Someone with a "bad" save will fail about 75% of the time, so they will fail two saves about 55% of the time- around the equivalent difficulty of failing once with your good save against a similar effect. Testing with a nonscaling DC gave a similar result.

Summarized: Forcing someone to fail a save twice using their bad save is about the same as requiring them to fail once using a good save. (Which says good things about the concept of Advantage/Disadvantage, I think)

Translating this back to the question of "multiple saving throws", the question is then whether it would be fair (in the Hill Giant case) to, equivalently, force a single Fortitude save against the Knockout Poison spell or similarly lose the encounter.

Personally, I'm a fan of the Color Spray option, with Fatigue and Exhaustion replaced by Staggered 1 round and Dazed 1 Round. A touch less bookkeeping, and relevant against multiple foes.

[Gorum]

Sleep is an encounter-ender at 1st level, but becomes irrelevant by 4th or 5th level. That's bad.
It's also a save-or-die, which is not great gameplay because it either ends the encounter, or it does nothing but waste a spell slot and a combat action.

Creating results other than complete success or complete failure. Whenever possible, I try to use what's already in the SRD or PHB. And fatigued and exhausted are right there. So our new spell requires a target to roll 3 saves. One failure means fatigued, two failures mean exhausted, three failures mean helpless (asleep).

1st level would be the single-target version. 3rd level would be the area effect version, the fireball of sleep spells, with a 20' radius.

The fact it is a save-or-die is bad, yes, but it is part of a flawed system that REQUIRES it. 3.5 / 3.PF have wizards who can realistically have less hp than the damage a common weapon can inflict with one hit without a strength bonus (2d6 for a greatsword). This also means that healing in battle is a bad proposition. You NEED save-or-die to end encounters A.S.A.P.!

(4th Ed tried to correct this)

The fact it is made NOT to scale is also a part of this awful system: In this case, it is made to (apparently) balance Wizard vs. Sorcerer. Since both share a spell list, the sorcerer's limited flexibility when it comes to switching spells means he can't afford many spell that decrease in power sharply, like sleep.

Thus the wizard can afford more powerful spells as his flexibility is built in. Past level 3, he simply don't prepare that spell anymore.

TL;DR: Play a better system.

[Axle-Gear]

You could scale it similar to Color Spray.

2HD or fewer means Sleep.
3HD-4HD means Exhausted.
5HD+ means Fatigued

<snip>

This one's my personal favorite. One-shotting a 2 HD mook with a level one spell seems appropriate, but allowing that spell to down a higher level creature on its own would make it overpowered for its slot.

However, past 5+ HD, wouldn't this just be a slightly better, slot-using Touch of Fatigue? Unless, like Color Spray, you want this spell to operate in a cone? That seems fair to me. If anything, it might still be a little underpowered compared to its 'sister' spell.

[Gorum]

This one's my personal favorite. One-shotting a 2 HD mook with a level one spell seems appropriate, but allowing that spell to down a higher level creature on its own would make it overpowered for its slot.

However, past 5+ HD, wouldn't this just be a slightly better, slot-using Touch of Fatigue? Unless, like Color Spray, you want this spell to operate in a cone? That seems fair to me. If anything, it might still be a little underpowered compared to its 'sister' spell.

Sleep is an AoE spell, number of creatures affected limited through their total HD. The OP conveniently ignored that part (Edit: for his lvl 3 version). Therefore, this new Sleep spell probably retain the area, making it far better than touch of fatigue. Furthermore, the fatigued / exhausted conditions are not given durations either, which means that, by default, affected creatures will need 1 hour of rest.

[johnbragg]

TL;DR: Play a better system.

Well, working on that. But my sleep-spell substitute Deeper Daze stays relevant through all levels of E6. It also keeps the "sneak past the guard" side of the spell, while removing the coup-de-grace win-button.

Take a Juvenile Dragon (CR 10). Will save +13, no SR. Against a save DC 19 (10+3 SL+6 Int), target fails on a 1-6, succeeds on a 7-20. So a 49% chance that the dragon makes both saves, 9% chance of complete success (dragon is dazed for 6 minutes, giving party time to loot and run away), leaving a 42% chance of dazing the dragon for one round, which is huge for a 1st level spell against a dragon.

Deeper Daze
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./level)
Area: One living creature
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates, special
Spell Resistance: Yes
A deeper daze spell causes a creature who fails two Will saves to become dazed for 1 minute per caster level. If the target fails one out of two Will saves, it is dazed for one round, as the cantrip.

Slapping or wounding, or taking any damage, breaks a deeper daze, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action).

Deeper daze does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.

Dazing Cloud
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./level)
Area: 20' radius
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates, special
Spell Resistance: Yes
A dazing cloud spell causes creatures within the spell's radius who fail two Will saves to become dazed for 1 minute per caster level. If the target fails one out of two Will saves, it is dazed for one round, as the cantrip.

Slapping or wounding, or taking any damage, awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action).

Dazing cloud does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.

[aimlessPolymath]

There's an interesting comparison point available for that. Daze Monster is a 2nd level spell:
-Also affects one target
-Unlike this spell, only affects creatures with 6HD or less
-Only one save against it; it is thus easier to save against than this spell.

[johnbragg]

There's an interesting comparison point available for that. Daze Monster is a 2nd level spell:
-Also affects one target
-Unlike this spell, only affects creatures with 6HD or less
-Only one save against it; it is thus easier to save against than this spell.

I looked at it, as a comparison. Daze monster doesn't see a lot of use in play (in my experience) or get a lot of forum love. So I wonder if it's underleveled, or otherwise underpowered. But a point by point comparison.

Duration: 1 round vs 1 minute/level
Save: Will vs Will (Special)
Range: Medium vs Close (changed from Sleep)
Targets: 6HD or less vs no HD cap.
(Possible type shenanigans? "Any living creature" would include oozes, vermin, maybe swarms? OTOH, "mind-affecting")

Against 3rd edition Sleep":
Duration: same
SAve: Will vs Will (special)
Range: Medium vs Close
Targets: 4HD of creatures vs single target, no HD cap

Bottom line, which spell would you rather have for your PC? I believe deeper daze is going to beat daze monster 10 times out of 10. Deeper daze is going to beat sleep 7 times out of 10--sleep is better if you're facing a half-dozen humanoids. Daze monster is better--never.

[Gorum]

Deeper daze does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.


I'd word it "Deeper daze is a sleep effect." thus making immune creatures immune to sleep, and elves resistant. Furthermore, the [Mind-Affecting] part already excludes constructs and undeads. In addition, you want the spell's description to mention it forces the target to make two saves, otherwise people might think you have to cast the spell twice. Better make the RAW as close to the RAI.

Otherwise, it's far from bad design. I actually like it. I would even go as far as making it "Saving Throw: Will negates, partial", have the 1 minute effect on a failed save, have the 1 round effect on a successful save, and finally have the Mettle ability (http://molivero.com/dndtools/USRD/srd/classes/baseCwar/hexblade.html) be worth a damn.

EDIT: Also, verbal component? Is this a feat / slot tax for it to be used to sneak around?

[johnbragg]

I'd word it "Deeper daze is a sleep effect." thus making immune creatures immune to sleep, and elves resistant. Furthermore, the [Mind-Affecting] part already excludes constructs and undeads.

That's actually copypasta from the SRD sleep spell. I'm not 100% on keeping the elven sleep immunity for deeper daze. I suppose for balance reasons I should keep it--if I don't have a strong reason for a change, I shouldn't.


In addition, you want the spell's description to mention it forces the target to make two saves, otherwise people might think you have to cast the spell twice. Better make the RAW as close to the RAI.

I should be clearer on that. (Although it would be spammed regularly--gives you four chances to fail two saves). Probably also clarify that you roll both saves no matter what the "first" result is.

The final language will also clarify that the one-round daze isn't breakable by the same methods as the minutes/level effect. Final language should also specify that if a target is already dazed, one failed save puts them in deeper daze. Although now I'm rethinking that. The partial-save daze effect is a one-round effect. A partial save on Casting #2 extends it for a round.


Otherwise, it's far from bad design. I actually like it. I would even go as far as making it "Saving Throw: Will negates, partial", have the 1 minute effect on a failed save, have the 1 round effect on a successful save, and finally have the Mettle ability (http://molivero.com/dndtools/USRD/srd/classes/baseCwar/hexblade.html) be worth a damn.

The 1 minute effect is on a double failure, the 1 round effect on a one-and-one. In my version.

And yes, mettle would negate the 1-round daze.

Your version, I think might be too strong. 1st level spell shuts down one target for one round, no save? That's pretty strong.


EDIT: Also, verbal component? Is this a feat / slot tax for it to be used to sneak around?

No, just plagiarism. :smallbiggrin: