How strong could dragon became if it could be a pc instead of monster?

[Sordahon]

Like progress by age could be speed up by experience, stat points would be the same as normal advancement but the dragon could take feats per 2HD, choose spells and skills for itself. Patching weakness of dex by some immunity spells, some teleportation, contingency maybe? If it COULD use it's intelligence and wisdom to choose what is best to dominate the area, would it fear broken wizards and munchkinery?

[Deophaun]

It can be a PC. Rules for leveling and advancing by age category are in Draconomicon. It's just not very strong because it has a lot of dragon HD and LA to contend with.

[Gnaeus]

If all its exp does is advance age category it is not much different than now. Dragons can already pick their feats and spells. They are already intelligent, and anyone who isn’t playing a dragon like a PC (using its gear intelligently, picking spells, feats, lair and tactics in ways that maximize its strengths and minimize weaknesses) isn’t playing a dragon.

That said, unless and until the dragon’s feats include “epic spellcasting” the casters are still better. Their spellcasting lags behind equal CR sorcerers, let alone wizards.

[Sapreaver]

If all its exp does is advance age category it is not much different than now. Dragons can already pick their feats and spells. They are already intelligent, and anyone who isn’t playing a dragon like a PC (using its gear intelligently, picking spells, feats, lair and tactics in ways that maximize its strengths and minimize weaknesses) isn’t playing a dragon.

That said, unless and until the dragon’s feats include “epic spellcasting” the casters are still better. Their spellcasting lags behind equal CR sorcerers, let alone wizards.

Doesn't a dragon cast as a sorceror of its HD just innately for being a dragon?

[hamishspence]

Doesn't a dragon cast as a sorceror of its HD just innately for being a dragon?

Nope.

A White Dragon Great Wyrm will have 36 HD but CL 13.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

A Steel Dragon Great Wyrm (one of the best as far as CL to Hit Dice ratio goes) will have 37 HD, CL 21.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a

Dragon Magazine and Dragons of Faerun statted it out too - possibly very slightly differently - but the basic point was that its CL was about as high as it gets for "conventional" (as opposed to Epic Handbook) Great Wyrms.

[Sapreaver]

Nope.

A White Dragon Great Wyrm will have 36 HD but CL 13.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

A Steel Dragon Great Wyrm (one of the best as far as CL to Hit Dice ratio goes) will have 37 HD, CL 21.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a

Dragon Magazine and Dragons of Faerun statted it out too - possibly very slightly differently - but the basic point was that its CL was about as high as it gets for "conventional" (as opposed to Epic Handbook) Great Wyrms.
Okay fair enough lol

[Necroticplague]

Dragon Magazine and Dragons of Faerun statted it out too - possibly very slightly differently - but the basic point was that its CL was about as high as it gets for "conventional" (as opposed to Epic Handbook) Great Wyrms.

Even if you include Epic dragons, you still have CL<CR<<ECL as a universal rule. Highest I could find was CL 38 on an CR 66 creature.

[King of Nowhere]

using its gear

do dragons have a gear? can they use it? If so, do their challenge rate take that into account?

because a dragon is strong, but if you just give it a ring of protection, bracers of armor, and a cloak of resistance, it suddenly becomes SO much stronger. put also scrolls for those spells he can't replicate, and for a small portion of its hoard the dragon patched up all its potential weaknesses.

Now, considering that dragons stats do not include equipment, I assume they do not have it by default. To justify why dragons don't routinely forge/buy basic custom items, I houseruled that dragons are already very powerful magic creatures and it interferes with items, so it doens't stack much, but it was my houserule-fix to justify dragons lacking huge equipment. I doubt it's official.

Anyway, if you slap a pc class on top of a dragon, it either becomes broken, or it doesn't get any level because of too high level adjustment.

[Deophaun]

do dragons have a gear?
If you give it to them.

can they use it?
Yes. Draconomicon lists their body slots.

If so, do their challenge rate take that into account?
If the entry includes gear, then it does. Otherwise, it does not.

[Nifft]

Like progress by age could be speed up by experience, stat points would be the same as normal advancement but the dragon could take feats per 2HD, choose spells and skills for itself. True Dragons do this already, except they get feats every 3 HD like all other characters.


Patching weakness of dex by some immunity spells, some teleportation, contingency maybe? True Dragons get +2 Dexterity, but -4 Str and -2 Con (except the desert variant which gets -4 Str / -2 Wis instead).


If it COULD use it's intelligence and wisdom to choose what is best to dominate the area, would it fear broken wizards and munchkinery? Absolutely yes.

True Dragons + shenanigans = broken.

The universe already trembles at the mere mention of Pun-Pun.


This was always a Kobold thread.

[Fouredged Sword]

A dragon played at hd=ecl plays like a tier 3ish gish more or less. High optimisation will break the game, and some of their options are really shiny and some need some serious dm rules (spellhoarding wyrmlings casting wish for the cost of buying a scroll of it and copying it 20-30 times onto it's scales to use as scrolls.)

But dragons are not fundementally different from any character who hits mid levels and discovers draconic polymorph as a spell.

[Tvtyrant]

Dragons are tier 3. I have run age categories as levels before, they are a lot like a tier 3 Barbarian would be.

[vasilidor]

as with similar things, PC dragons were designed to be weaker than regular PC's, in order to discourage people from actually playing them.

[Goaty14]

Pretty Sure true dragons get alternate form, so they can use items.

[Nifft]

Pretty Sure true dragons get alternate form, so they can use items.

Some do, but most don't.

But that doesn't really matter, because dragons can use items just fine in dragon form.

[Necroticplague]

Some do, but most don't.

But that doesn't really matter, because dragons can use items just fine in dragon form.

And some are even made specifically for their draconic forms.

Dragons are typically light in magic items for more psychological than practical reasons (prideful that they don’t need items, and you can sell a magic item for way more than it’s volume in gold for your hoard).

[Fouredged Sword]

And the A&eg has a collar thaf will turn any creature small without changing their stats. 30+ strength and a 300ft fly speed on a small creature.

[Nifft]

and you can sell a magic item for way more than it’s volume in gold for your hoard).

"It was a really nice staff of power, very tasteful motifs and runic inlays, but I had just gone up a size category and my hoard was starting to feel cramped."

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Dragons can be a lot of fun to play, though using D&D 3.5 rules it takes a high level campaign to play one. As most even at wyrmling level take about an ECL 10. Pathfinder they're quite a bit easier to be, though they get pretty broken pretty quick. (Using both rules, creature from 3.5, and monster character from Pathfinder) A CR 3 brown very young dragon has +8 strength +6 Con and +2 to all mentals, as well as 9 HD and is a large creature. More often than not the dragons do better in a physical role than a spell caster because the amount of levels that it costs just to be one.
Advancing a dragon in age is difficult in most campaigns, since there aren't many campaigns that span enough years. If worked right as a DM I'd say you could advance once by putting yourself at the highest age of the age category.

[Sleven]

As with most anything in 3.5 there is no upper limit.

In non-theoretical terms, if LA buyoff and level draining yourself are allowed... very strong. This also lets them work out okay at lower levels.

Even without the above, dragons have an insane amount of support from multiple books allowing them to be built into almost anything. They can compete with any martial, skill, or spellcasting class and even work great as combinations of any of the above. Your biggest concern is age and time. Dragons work best if allowed to stay between wyrmling and very young for the entirety of a campaign.

My personal favorites are Tome Dragons and Steel Dragons, but I also tend to favor spellcasters.