Domains for a Spontaenous Cleric/Sovereign Speaker

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Sick of preparing spells, I've been thinking of playing a Spontaneous Cleric. A spontaneous caster who doesn't suffer from Sorcerer-style "1 level late" progression and who has access to a great base chassis and spell list? What's not to love?
Apart from the lower spells per day and spells known, of course. Loss of versatility sucks.
Still, I've been trying to make this work with a build like:
Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Speaker of Concordance 5/Contemplative 1/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 2
NOTE: Setting is custom, so Speaker of Concordance can get pretty much any domain but doesn't get any weapon proficiencies.

What Domains should I pick? I get 2 at level 1, then I get Inquisition at level 4 and another one at each level from level 6 to 11. Then I get the Divination domain at level 12.
The Substitute Domain spell exists and I will take it as soon as possible, obviously.

And what race seems best for a Spontaneous Cleric aiming to a Gish and then a Healbot, without using DMMM?


This would require me to be LN, max Knowledge (Religion) and take 4 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana). At level 1 I'd take the Education feat to get Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill, I'd take the Worldly Focus feat at level 3 and Skill Focus(Knowledge(Religion) at level 9, but it would give me access to 10 domains (which is a whole lot of extra spells for a Spontaneous Caster) and make me lose 1 Spellcasting level.

The character will probably not go for DMMM (too feat-intensive and cheesy for my table) and will probably take Power Attack and Touch of Healing.

At low levels this character would be a Gish. Not too sure what secondary roles to take apart from Healbot. Maybe I should take Cloistered Cleric to get more skills but lower BaB? But then I'd have to spend feats to get armor and shield proficiencies...

Fluffwise this character is simply a Cleric who worships all Gods equally, aiming to anger none of them and gain more understanding of the Divine. He's mostly driven by a desire for personal power - he wants to be a God himself eventually, or ascend as some kind of Celestial being. Failing that, learning the powers that grant healing and extended life seemed like a great choice to someone who didn't want to die.
He channels Negative Energy, but will probably learn a bunch of healing spells anyway.

[Helluin]

Magic or Spell (Disjunction)
Protection (Mind Blank and Prismatic Sphere)
Trickery (PAO, Time Stop)
Time (Haste, Permanency, Contingency! Foresight as 8th level spell! Also Time Stop)
Summoner (all the planar bindings!)
Portal (now you can use actual teleportation spells, including Dimension Door)
Force (Resilient sphere, Wall of Force, FORCECAGE!)
Envy (Simulacrum, Limited Wish/Wish, although you already have Miracle...)
Animal or Scalykind (Shapechange, Scalykind also gets you Venomfire but it’s less useful for a cleric)

Since you have 6 to choose from, if I had to pick I’d go with Time, Protection, Magic/Spell, Force, Portal, Animal/Scalykind. PAO and simulacrum are nice but with those domains you can get most of the best signature spells of a wizard.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Magic or Spell (Disjunction)
Protection (Mind Blank and Prismatic Sphere)
Trickery (PAO, Time Stop)
Time (Haste, Permanency, Contingency! Foresight as 8th level spell! Also Time Stop)
Summoner (all the planar bindings!)
Portal (now you can use actual teleportation spells, including Dimension Door)
Force (Resilient sphere, Wall of Force, FORCECAGE!)
Envy (Simulacrum, Limited Wish/Wish, although you already have Miracle...)
Animal or Scalykind (Shapechange, Scalykind also gets you Venomfire but it’s less useful for a cleric)

Since you have 6 to choose from, if I had to pick I’d go with Time, Protection, Magic/Spell, Force, Portal, Animal/Scalykind. PAO and simulacrum are nice but with those domains you can get most of the best signature spells of a wizard.

While you do have a very good point, I can use the Substitute Domain spell as needed at higher levels. So I could pick domains that are good for low-level play, and then swap them for things like Magic/Spell/Portal/Time easily when I start getting access to level 6 or 7 spells.

The problem is that I've so far failed to find anything about domains which are good at low levels and mid-levels.

That's why I'm mostly building for low-level play. And as you may have noticed my build ends before level 20, because I'm pretty certain I'll never reach that level anyway. Reaching level 16 is already an achievement in my games with this group. So a character that's decent at level 1, 5 and 10 are what I'm really looking for. Getting great level 6 and up spells is nice, but not really essential.

[Helluin]

That’d make things a fair bit easier, in fact - I’d just go with Portal (dimension door is still crazy good), Force (resilient sphere for Continngency), Summoner (lesser planar binding and planar binding can still get you great critters, if your DM allow them at all), and Time (haste), maybe Trickery (for invisibility). If you want to be Gish, Glory domain has Holy Sword as a 5th level Spell, but without persistomancy its use might be limited.
Also my bad, Scalykind doesn’t give you Venomfire, it’s already on the cleric list. Incidentally, if you can somehow get a fleshraker via polymorph or wild cohort (not sure if it works, never read about it), you can do ridiculous amount of damage...

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Spells learnt:
(Cleric 1) 1: Detect Magic, Light, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Lesser Vigor, Blade of Blood, +2 domains
(Cleric 2) 2: Create Water,
(Cleric 3) 3: Divine Favor,
(Cleric 4) 4: Detect Poison, Zone of Truth (to qualify for Church Inquisitor)
(Church Inquisitor 1) 5: Bless, retrain Zone of Truth into Divine Insight, Substitute Domain, + Inquisition domain
(Sovereign Speaker 1) 6: +1 domain
(Sovereign Speaker 2) 7: Guidance, Dispel Magic, +1 domain
(Sovereign Speaker 3) 8: Resurgence, Spiritual Weapon, Bestow Curse, +1 domain
(Sovereign Speaker 4) 9: Create Water, Greater Magic Weapon, +1 domain
(Sovereign Speaker 5) 10: Lesser Restoration, Remove Curse, Panacea, +1 domain
(Contemplative 1) 11: Amanuensis, Plane Shift, +1 domain

So from levels 1 through 4 the 2 starting domains represent roughly half of the spells above lv0 available to the character.
And then from level 5 onwards the character gains a domain every level, which means learning three or four new spells every level. The final result is a pretty good spell list!

The only problem is that I have no idea what domains to pick, especially at level 1. I'll probably start taking the domains you listed around level 8 (when I get access to level 4 spells).

Edit: I was thinking Renewal and Strength at level 1.

[Falontani]

Level 1:
+1 Caster Level on all [healing] spells
Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Heal, Regenerate, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Mass Heal

If you use this variant, the Healing domain loses much of its appeal, since six of the nine spells associated with that domain are cure spells and thus available for spontaneous casting by all clerics who channel positive energy. (To a lesser extent, this variant diminishes the value of the Destruction domain, but since only three of that domain’s spells are inflict spells, the effect is much less severe.) Consider granting clerics who select the Healing domain the ability to use d12s instead of d8s when casting cure spells. Thus, such a cleric’s cure light wounds spell would cure 1d12 damage +1/level, and his caster level is treated as one higher than normal thanks to the granted power. This is all regarding the healing domain on spontaneous clerics
Warforged Domain:
Rebuke. command, or bolster construct creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3+ your Cha modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.
Repair Light Damage, Lesser Construct Essence, Stone Construct, Repair Critical Damage, Greater Construct Energy Ward, Iron Construct, Mass Lesser Construct Essence, Total Repair, Summon Warforged Champion
Level 4: +4 on Dispel Checks
Detect Chaos, Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, True Seeing, Geas/Quest, Dictum, Shield of Law, Imprisonment
Level 6:
Rebuke / Control / Bolster Fire Elementals –or– Turn / Destroy Water Elementals, up to 3 + Charisma modifier times per day.
Burning Hands, Produce Flame, Resist Energy Fire/Cold, Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Fire Seeds, Firestorm, Incendiary Cloud, Fire Elemental Swarm
Level 7:
Rebuke / Control / Bolster Earth Elementals –or– Turn / Destroy Air Elementals, up to 3 + Charisma modifier times per day.
Magic Stone, Soften Earth and Stone, Stone Shape, Spike Stones, Wall of Stone, Stoneskin, Earthquake, Iron Body, Earth Elemental Swarm
Level 8:
Rebuke / Control / Bolster Water Elements –or– Turn / Destroy Fire Elementals, up to 3 + Charisma modifier times per day.
Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Control Water, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, Horrid Wilting, Water Elemental Swarm
Level 9:
Rebuke / Control / Bolster Air Elementals –or– Turn / Destroy Earth Elementals, up to 3 + Charisma modifier times per day.
Obscuring Mist, Wind Wall, Gaseous Form, Air Walk, Control Winds, Chain Lightning, Control Weather, Whirlwind, Air Elemental Swarm
Level 10:
Granted Power: Rebuke or command oozes as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Cha modifier.
Grease, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Poison, Rusting Grasp, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Transmute Rock to Mud, Destruction, Power Word Blind, Impolosion
Level 11:
Gain Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency or Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency –and– Feat: Weapon Focus with your choice of Hammer (you do not need to meet the prerequisites).
Magic Weapon, Heat Metal, Keen Edge, Rusting Grasp, Wall of Iron, Blade Barrier, Transmute Metal to Wood, Iron Body, Repel Metal or Stone
Level 12:
You cast divination spells at +2 caster levels
Identify, Augury, Divination, Scrying, Commune, Legend Lore, Greater Scrying, Discern Location, Foresight
Level 14: Take a few levels of Ordained Champion, it allows you to channel all your turn/rebuke attempts into Smite Attacks. At this point you have 21 + (Cha Mod * 7) different turn/rebuke attempts, and the smite attacks add your CHA to hit and add your Turning Level to damage. Extra Turning the Feat will grant you an additional 28 turn attempts. Lastly Ordained Champion grants the
Gain Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency and Feat: Weapon Focus in the deity’s favored weapon.
Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, Flame Strike, Blade Barrier, Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Power Word Kill

Finally Ordained Champion allows you to ditch a turn/rebuke attempt in order to cast a spell into you melee weapon and effect the enemy with it at a later time. So your attack spells gain more use while being a melee.

Other domains I would attempt to get: Spider Domain, Scalykind Domain, Spell Domain, and if there is a domain that allows you to cast Planar Binding take it!

[Anthrowhale]

I'm unclear on whether you can freely use substitute domain to get access to any domain. If so, the choice of domain doesn't really matter after you get access. If not, I'm unclear on which domains you have access to via substitute domain.

Either way, I expect you'll get strong utility from the Spell domain starting at level 5 when Anyspell provides access to any arcane L2- spell. You might also consider the Transformation domain for level 3 access to Alter Self. At level 1... the Dream domain provides access to Sleep which is pretty good for about 2 levels.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I'm unclear on whether you can freely use substitute domain to get access to any domain. If so, the choice of domain doesn't really matter after you get access. If not, I'm unclear on which domains you have access to via substitute domain.

Either way, I expect you'll get strong utility from the Spell domain starting at level 5 when Anyspell provides access to any arcane L2- spell. You might also consider the Transformation domain for level 3 access to Alter Self. At level 1... the Dream domain provides access to Sleep which is pretty good for about 2 levels.

I thought of the Spell domain too, but it turns out that the Anyspell line ans duch all rely on preparing spells - and this Cleric doesn't prepare any.
Oh, I hadn't thought of the Dream domain! Sleep is great, and Augury is pretty good too...


Level 1:
+1 Caster Level on all [healing] spells
Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, Cure Critical Wounds, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Heal, Regenerate, Mass Cure Critical Wounds, Mass Heal
This is all regarding the healing domain on spontaneous clerics
Warforged Domain:
Rebuke. command, or bolster construct creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3+ your Cha modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.
Repair Light Damage, Lesser Construct Essence, Stone Construct, Repair Critical Damage, Greater Construct Energy Ward, Iron Construct, Mass Lesser Construct Essence, Total Repair, Summon Warforged Champion
Level 4: +4 on Dispel Checks
Detect Chaos, Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, True Seeing, Geas/Quest, Dictum, Shield of Law, Imprisonment
Level 6:
Rebuke / Control / Bolster Fire Elementals –or– Turn / Destroy Water Elementals, up to 3 + Charisma modifier times per day.
Burning Hands, Produce Flame, Resist Energy Fire/Cold, Wall of Fire, Fire Shield, Fire Seeds, Firestorm, Incendiary Cloud, Fire Elemental Swarm
Level 7:
Rebuke / Control / Bolster Earth Elementals –or– Turn / Destroy Air Elementals, up to 3 + Charisma modifier times per day.
Magic Stone, Soften Earth and Stone, Stone Shape, Spike Stones, Wall of Stone, Stoneskin, Earthquake, Iron Body, Earth Elemental Swarm
Level 8:
Rebuke / Control / Bolster Water Elements –or– Turn / Destroy Fire Elementals, up to 3 + Charisma modifier times per day.
Obscuring Mist, Fog Cloud, Control Water, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, Horrid Wilting, Water Elemental Swarm
Level 9:
Rebuke / Control / Bolster Air Elementals –or– Turn / Destroy Earth Elementals, up to 3 + Charisma modifier times per day.
Obscuring Mist, Wind Wall, Gaseous Form, Air Walk, Control Winds, Chain Lightning, Control Weather, Whirlwind, Air Elemental Swarm
Level 10:
Granted Power: Rebuke or command oozes as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Cha modifier.
Grease, Melf’s Acid Arrow, Poison, Rusting Grasp, Evard’s Black Tentacles, Transmute Rock to Mud, Destruction, Power Word Blind, Impolosion
Level 11:
Gain Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency or Feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency –and– Feat: Weapon Focus with your choice of Hammer (you do not need to meet the prerequisites).
Magic Weapon, Heat Metal, Keen Edge, Rusting Grasp, Wall of Iron, Blade Barrier, Transmute Metal to Wood, Iron Body, Repel Metal or Stone
Level 12:
You cast divination spells at +2 caster levels
Identify, Augury, Divination, Scrying, Commune, Legend Lore, Greater Scrying, Discern Location, Foresight
Level 14: Take a few levels of Ordained Champion, it allows you to channel all your turn/rebuke attempts into Smite Attacks. At this point you have 21 + (Cha Mod * 7) different turn/rebuke attempts, and the smite attacks add your CHA to hit and add your Turning Level to damage. Extra Turning the Feat will grant you an additional 28 turn attempts. Lastly Ordained Champion grants the
Gain Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency and Feat: Weapon Focus in the deity’s favored weapon.
Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Magic Vestment, Divine Power, Flame Strike, Blade Barrier, Power Word Blind, Power Word Stun, Power Word Kill

Finally Ordained Champion allows you to ditch a turn/rebuke attempt in order to cast a spell into you melee weapon and effect the enemy with it at a later time. So your attack spells gain more use while being a melee.

Other domains I would attempt to get: Spider Domain, Scalykind Domain, Spell Domain, and if there is a domain that allows you to cast Planar Binding take it!
You have many good points, but I'm very dubious of the order in which you get all those domains. It looks like you chose all of those domains to maximise the number of Turning Attempts so as to Maximise the number of Smite attacks. That's nice, but ultimately irrelevant: all of those turning attempts are useless until level 14 when you start taking Ordained Champion levels. Until then they're terrible, because Sovereign Speaker doesn't advance turning checks like Cleric does and because I'm already losing three feats so I won't be able to take a ton of Divine feats fuelled by Turning Attempts. Except that at level 14 the Cleric can use Substitute Domain to take all of those domains instead of taking those ones at low levels when the're very suboptimal (Warforged domain at level 1? Really?). You put things like Fire and Warforged very early when the spells they give would be mostly irrelevant, and things like Slime at high levels when they have spells (Grease) that would have been great at level 1!

Your build is great, but only at level 14 or more. Before then you can pick any other domain and than cast Substitute Domain 10 times before going adventuring: that spell lasts 1 day per caster level!

[Falontani]

You have many good points, but I'm very dubious of the order in which you get all those domains. It looks like you chose all of those domains to maximise the number of Turning Attempts so as to Maximise the number of Smite attacks. That's nice, but ultimately irrelevant: all of those turning attempts are useless until level 14 when you start taking Ordained Champion levels. Until then they're terrible, because Sovereign Speaker doesn't advance turning checks like Cleric does and because I'm already losing three feats so I won't be able to take a ton of Divine feats fuelled by Turning Attempts. Except that at level 14 the Cleric can use Substitute Domain to take all of those domains instead of taking those ones at low levels when the're very suboptimal (Warforged domain at level 1? Really?). You put things like Fire and Warforged very early when the spells they give would be mostly irrelevant, and things like Slime at high levels when they have spells (Grease) that would have been great at level 1!

Your build is great, but only at level 14 or more. Before then you can pick any other domain and than cast Substitute Domain 10 times before going adventuring: that spell lasts 1 day per caster level!

Well I'm at least glad that you enjoy the idea; however I personally love minionmancy and I can only picture the army of weaker creatures you could command. Undead, elementals of all sorts, constructs and even oozes. You may not have the best rebuking per level, but you can rebuke such a variety. Warforged being the cream of the crop. If you grab scalykind instead of one of the others then rebuke/command yourself an army of DWK and dragons.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Well I'm at least glad that you enjoy the idea; however I personally love minionmancy and I can only picture the army of weaker creatures you could command. Undead, elementals of all sorts, constructs and even oozes. You may not have the best rebuking per level, but you can rebuke such a variety. Warforged being the cream of the crop. If you grab scalykind instead of one of the others then rebuke/command yourself an army of DWK and dragons.

While your idea is good, the minions would all be **** because a level 4 cleric can't really control much! Getting Dragons or Golems is pretty much impossible :(
Still, I think the idea of switching domains to become a minionmancer Cleric is a great idea.
I made a thread about it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555177-Turning-Rebuking-fire-creatures-and-losing-the-Water-domain&p=22965433#post22965433