5e Fight Club

[primren]

A good friend and beloved DM is moving away soon. As a send-off, we're planning an evening of PvP with 5e, which we're referring to as "5e Fight Club", though obviously (since I'm posting here) without the rules of actual Fight Club :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, the way it's going to work is this:


There's three of us playing
Whoever isn't in a given match is referee/DM/environmental effects/etc.
Each of the three of us has been randomly assigned 4 classes (2 melee, 2 spellcasting)
Each winning combatant gets a short rest before the next fight
All characters are 10th level
Last one standing is the winner
Melee characters fight each other until one winner emerges, same for spellcasters
Winning spellcaster and winning melee fighter battle it out for overall winner
Each character gets a budget (as yet undetermined) to spend on mundane items
No magical items


So, I'm going to be playing Monk, Barbarian, Bard, and Cleric. The other two guys involved are both much more experienced D&D players than I am. Except a single one-off, I've never played a character above level 5, so I don't have any hands-on time with all the options, etc.

I've played Monk quite a bit, so I have some ideas there, but the other three I have minimal experience with (I've mostly played rogue, ranger, and wizard). I have a bit of experience with Cleric but not as much as I'd like. I imagine the goals and optimization for this environment will be different than a normal campaign, as well, since it's PvP, short rest only, and role-playing/utility will be less crucial than in a campaign (though ideas for interesting tricks, items with unexpected applications, etc. are appreciated!).

Given the rules listed above, I'd appreciate any suggestions for building and optimizing these characters at level 10 and for strategy for surviving the bracket. We don't have the match-ups yet (they'll be randomized on the day), so I can't plan for specific fights (and couldn't past round 1, anyway).

Any ideas?

[Aett_Thorn]

How are you generating stats for this? I'm assuming some sort of point-buy or standard array? That may affect people's recommendations.

[Pex]

We don't talk about this.

[Socratov]

A good friend and beloved DM is moving away soon. As a send-off, we're planning an evening of PvP with 5e, which we're referring to as "5e Fight Club", though obviously (since I'm posting here) without the rules of actual Fight Club :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, the way it's going to work is this:


There's three of us playing
Whoever isn't in a given match is referee/DM/environmental effects/etc.
Each of the three of us has been randomly assigned 4 classes (2 melee, 2 spellcasting)
Each winning combatant gets a short rest before the next fight
All characters are 10th level
Last one standing is the winner
Melee characters fight each other until one winner emerges, same for spellcasters
Winning spellcaster and winning melee fighter battle it out for overall winner
Each character gets a budget (as yet undetermined) to spend on mundane items
No magical items


So, I'm going to be playing Monk, Barbarian, Bard, and Cleric. The other two guys involved are both much more experienced D&D players than I am. Except a single one-off, I've never played a character above level 5, so I don't have any hands-on time with all the options, etc.

I've played Monk quite a bit, so I have some ideas there, but the other three I have minimal experience with (I've mostly played rogue, ranger, and wizard). I have a bit of experience with Cleric but not as much as I'd like. I imagine the goals and optimization for this environment will be different than a normal campaign, as well, since it's PvP, short rest only, and role-playing/utility will be less crucial than in a campaign (though ideas for interesting tricks, items with unexpected applications, etc. are appreciated!).

Given the rules listed above, I'd appreciate any suggestions for building and optimizing these characters at level 10 and for strategy for surviving the bracket. We don't have the match-ups yet (they'll be randomized on the day), so I can't plan for specific fights (and couldn't past round 1, anyway).

Any ideas?
Bard is best at tricking and mindgames, also, pick Lore. A well placed suggestion or other illusion/enchantment will effectively render the enemy useless. Then use your magical secrets to pick a debillitating spell that drains whatever, make him fail his saves and go to town.

[Aett_Thorn]

Bard is best at tricking and mindgames, also, pick Lore. A well placed suggestion or other illusion/enchantment will effectively render the enemy useless. Then use your magical secrets to pick a debillitating spell that drains whatever, make him fail his saves and go to town.

I actually think that a Glamour Bard might be good here. A Bonus-Action Command each round could be fantastic.

[primren]

How are you generating stats for this? I'm assuming some sort of point-buy or standard array? That may affect people's recommendations.

We didn't talk about it, but we almost always roll stats for a level 1 character (4d6 drop 1) and level up. I haven't started yet, but I think one of the guys has already done this.

[primren]

I actually think that a Glamour Bard might be good here. A Bonus-Action Command each round could be fantastic.

I was intrigued by that, too. I think, theoretically, you could just use a command like "Submit" or "Forfeit" to make the other player give up, no? It might be an unexpectedly quick fight, or, if not, the DM might rule some weird interpretation that would make things very interesting.

[Aett_Thorn]

One thing you might want to think about is trying to subvert expectations. For instance, you've got Barbarian. I bet you your enemies (read: friends that will need to be crushed) will expect you to go Bear Totem for all of the resistances. So maybe they'll be prepared with some psychic damage or just a bunch of control. So maybe go Berserker to become immune to charms, or go Eagle totem so that you have a ton of movement if they try to get away. For the Monk, go something like Sun Soul or Kensei, and fight from range against the other fighters, and get up close and melee the casters.

[sophontteks]

Monk is good. Stunlock and win.
Be weary of a paladin. He will screw your monk hard with the massive bonus to saves vs. stun and every hit he delivers is going to REALLY hurt. Healing for 50 hp is no joke either. Oh, and he will surely be riding a mount too (GL kiting a horse). He's gonna be king of the jungle in these matchups I think.



Do you know anything about how the arena is set up?
Do you know anything about your opponents random picks?

[CTurbo]

Whoever picks Tempest Cleric should win this. 20 AC + Maximizing thunder or lightning damage twice per fight should be enough to win.

As mentioned above, Paladins would be really tough with their massive save bonuses. Ancients would shine against the casters. Paladins do NOT regain their smites on a short rest though so that would be an extremely limited resource.

Monk could spam stun attempts, but it'd be succeed or die.

Barbarians are the ultimate tank. They'd be tough to bring down 1 on 1

Warlocks would actually excel in this scenario as they would have all of their spells every fight and spam Darkness + Devil's sight.

[sophontteks]

Ancients paladin on a horse with mounted combatant feat. Just lance them down. A d12 weapon with reach that can be used with a shield while mounted with advantage on every attack. All on a mount that will be dashing at 120 ft/round. And they can't even target the mount. Most melee combatants will be completely helpless vs. this.

And on mage fight. The mount gets the pally save bonuses and magic resist. It also takes half damage on a failed dex save and none on a successful one. And it can't be targetting by spell attacks.

[Sage Tellah]

All this 1v1 combat. Consider bringing it to the ground with your Barbarian. Go human, take Prodigy for athletics expertise, grapple and shove opponents off their horses and such. It might be more difficult against characters than monsters for their own skill proficiencies, but odds should still be solidly in your favor, and very few classes will be able to duke it out mano e mano with the big tough guy, or outrun him if you're an eagle totem barbarian.

[EvilAnagram]

Whoever picks Tempest Cleric should win this. 20 AC + Maximizing thunder or lightning damage twice per fight should be enough to win.

As mentioned above, Paladins would be really tough with their massive save bonuses. Ancients would shine against the casters. Paladins do NOT regain their smites on a short rest though so that would be an extremely limited resource.

Monk could spam stun attempts, but it'd be succeed or die.

Barbarians are the ultimate tank. They'd be tough to bring down 1 on 1

Warlocks would actually excel in this scenario as they would have all of their spells every fight and spam Darkness + Devil's sight.

The Tempest Cleric is definitely the way to go. If you get a single Call Lightning off without a Counterspell taking you, you can spam maximized 70-point lightning bolts while you heal yourself with a bonus action.

Against mages, cast silence, grapple your opponent, and bludgeon him to death. Antimagic Shell works with this, too.

[primren]

One thing you might want to think about is trying to subvert expectations. For instance, you've got Barbarian. I bet you your enemies (read: friends that will need to be crushed) will expect you to go Bear Totem for all of the resistances. So maybe they'll be prepared with some psychic damage or just a bunch of control. So maybe go Berserker to become immune to charms, or go Eagle totem so that you have a ton of movement if they try to get away. For the Monk, go something like Sun Soul or Kensei, and fight from range against the other fighters, and get up close and melee the casters.

Once again, I'm glad to know my instincts are good. I'll be playing a Sun Soul Aarakocra with the mobile feat. Allows me to get in, make attacks and get out without provoking opportunity attacks, and if necessary, can blast from a distance, in the air. Should give them something to really reckon with.

[primren]

Monk is good. Stunlock and win.
Be weary of a paladin. He will screw your monk hard with the massive bonus to saves vs. stun and every hit he delivers is going to REALLY hurt. Healing for 50 hp is no joke either. Oh, and he will surely be riding a mount too (GL kiting a horse). He's gonna be king of the jungle in these matchups I think.



Do you know anything about how the arena is set up?
Do you know anything about your opponents random picks?

The arenas still need to be designed, but we've talked about building up some environments that are sort of Smash Bros.-inspired: roll for random magic items that would be in defended/hard to reach places, environmental hazards, etc., but that's not been mapped out yet.

We're representing all the base classes. Let's call the most experienced player C and the other one (still much more experience that I have), we'll call B. C is playing Paladin, Fighter, Druid, Warlock, and B is playing Wizard, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer.

[primren]

The Tempest Cleric is definitely the way to go. If you get a single Call Lightning off without a Counterspell taking you, you can spam maximized 70-point lightning bolts while you heal yourself with a bonus action.

Against mages, cast silence, grapple your opponent, and bludgeon him to death. Antimagic Shell works with this, too.

Ooooh, I like the Silence/Melee Combo. That's nice. Would never have occurred to me, but it's great.

[TheDarkKing]

I'd recommend Sun Soul Monk to play keep away from the melee people, but barbarian is probably your best bet for winning. I'd probably go with Bear totem barbarian just because it will give you as much toughness as you can get. Berserker would also work nicely for these 1v1 combats.

[sophontteks]

My money is on player C. Paladin, druid, warlock. These are all really, really mean dualists that will have many options in the fight. Warlock and Pally were talked about. Druid, on top of being a full caster, will have his elemental shapeshift form at level 10. Its very strong and it'll last multiple fights if used intelligently.

[Armored Walrus]

I run a weekly battle royale pvp game on Roll20, so I've got some practical experience with this. However, I don't do 1v1, but rather, it's usually 8 characters in a free-for-all, or occasionally 4v4 team battles.

The terrain you fight on, engagement distance, and any battlefield effects are a huge factor. What seems unbeatable in a white room analysis can die in round 1 in an actual fight, so the more intel you can get about your terrain the better you can plan for it.

Some trends I can point to for characters that tend to get the most kills and/or survive the longest:

Mobility is huge. Having a ranged attack option is huge. Flight can be huge, but isn't always an insta-win, especially if the non-flying opponent has mobility and range.

Messing with visibility is a big deal. Using a combo like casting fog cloud and then turning into a creature with blindsight can be a game changer. On the other hand, in my experience, the darkness/devil's sight combo isn't as powerful as people make it out to be, other than the fact that in an 8-way free-for-all the darkness-covered warlock tends to get ignored in favor of visible opponents, but you won't have that benefit.

Being able to manipulate the battlefield, create difficult or damaging terrain, create your own cover, are big. Spells like Spike Growth can be killers if your enemy can't fly.

In a 1v1, action economy will be hugely valuable, so summoning spells will be more powerful than usual. If you get to roll 12 dice on your turn and they only roll 2, you're probably going to win.

You probably already know this, but healing is weak. Unless you can find total cover in which to spend a few actions healing, I wouldn't bother taking any healing.

In the end, I think the key is versatility. Specializing your build will make winning or losing a matter of luck. Make characters with an eye toward being able to get to any point on the battlefield easily, being able to counter or absorb multiple types of attacks, having a lot of tools to deal with whatever your opponent can come up with.

If I had to pick the character that has had the best results in my group, it'd be the Kensai monk that starts the match by drinking a potion of Haste and a potion of giant strength, next turn drinks a potion of invulnerability, and then becomes a hyperspeed meat cleaver that can single out any opponent in the arena, get to them in a single round, and unleash 5 attack rolls per round on them for as long as the Ki lasts. He really doesn't like Dispel Magic, though. there's always a counter....

Edit: Oh, also, if you're going with the default of average hit points, expect the matches to be over very quickly. Player damage is not balanced to be used against other players - monsters get huge HP boosts to allow them to last enough round to make them a good fight. If you've got short rest resources, use them every single round. Don't hoard them, because the fight will be over before you run out.

[primren]

I run a weekly battle royale pvp game on Roll20, so I've got some practical experience with this. However, I don't do 1v1, but rather, it's usually 8 characters in a free-for-all, or occasionally 4v4 team battles.

The terrain you fight on, engagement distance, and any battlefield effects are a huge factor. What seems unbeatable in a white room analysis can die in round 1 in an actual fight, so the more intel you can get about your terrain the better you can plan for it.

Some trends I can point to for characters that tend to get the most kills and/or survive the longest:

Mobility is huge. Having a ranged attack option is huge. Flight can be huge, but isn't always an insta-win, especially if the non-flying opponent has mobility and range.

Messing with visibility is a big deal. Using a combo like casting fog cloud and then turning into a creature with blindsight can be a game changer. On the other hand, in my experience, the darkness/devil's sight combo isn't as powerful as people make it out to be, other than the fact that in an 8-way free-for-all the darkness-covered warlock tends to get ignored in favor of visible opponents, but you won't have that benefit.

Being able to manipulate the battlefield, create difficult or damaging terrain, create your own cover, are big. Spells like Spike Growth can be killers if your enemy can't fly.

In a 1v1, action economy will be hugely valuable, so summoning spells will be more powerful than usual. If you get to roll 12 dice on your turn and they only roll 2, you're probably going to win.

You probably already know this, but healing is weak. Unless you can find total cover in which to spend a few actions healing, I wouldn't bother taking any healing.

In the end, I think the key is versatility. Specializing your build will make winning or losing a matter of luck. Make characters with an eye toward being able to get to any point on the battlefield easily, being able to counter or absorb multiple types of attacks, having a lot of tools to deal with whatever your opponent can come up with.

If I had to pick the character that has had the best results in my group, it'd be the Kensai monk that starts the match by drinking a potion of Haste and a potion of giant strength, next turn drinks a potion of invulnerability, and then becomes a hyperspeed meat cleaver that can single out any opponent in the arena, get to them in a single round, and unleash 5 attack rolls per round on them for as long as the Ki lasts. He really doesn't like Dispel Magic, though. there's always a counter....

Edit: Oh, also, if you're going with the default of average hit points, expect the matches to be over very quickly. Player damage is not balanced to be used against other players - monsters get huge HP boosts to allow them to last enough round to make them a good fight. If you've got short rest resources, use them every single round. Don't hoard them, because the fight will be over before you run out.

Oooh. This is super great info. Thank you!

[Armored Walrus]

No problem. If you get more specifics, update the thread and I'll see if I can draw any more conclusions from what I've seen in our game.

Edit: Looking over OP again, you each got one short rest/no rest class. If you have to fight all the way through your bracket with no long rests, the bard, barb, and cleric will be sucking wind after only a couple matches. The monk, on the other hand, will get stronger and stronger as the tournament goes on, as long as it can survive the first couple fights. If your first match happens to pair up your cleric or bard vs the warlock, for example, you might just want to sacrifice your caster and burn everything he's got to make sure the warlock doesn't advance. With any luck, the final round will be your monk vs a long-rest caster, and you'll just eat it up. Similarly, if you face the rogue with your barb, use up everything you have to take it out, as long as your monk is still alive. Don't worry about saving anything for the next fight in those two scenarios.

[primren]

I know everyone is saying Tempest Domain for the cleric, but I realized that we said "all published books" which means the Death Domain from DMG is technically in play here. Looks really suited to this environment, since it's basically designed for creating an NPC to challenge player characters. Thoughts? From what I can tell, the abilities stack well and very few people are resistant to necrotic damage, so it feels like a good twist on expectations.

[Aett_Thorn]

I know everyone is saying Tempest Domain for the cleric, but I realized that we said "all published books" which means the Death Domain from DMG is technically in play here. Looks really suited to this environment, since it's basically designed for creating an NPC to challenge player characters. Thoughts? From what I can tell, the abilities stack well and very few people are resistant to necrotic damage, so it feels like a good twist on expectations.

Even if they ARE resistant to necrotic damage, you get to ignore that at the level you'll be at. So people really won't be expecting it.

[EvilAnagram]

I know everyone is saying Tempest Domain for the cleric, but I realized that we said "all published books" which means the Death Domain from DMG is technically in play here. Looks really suited to this environment, since it's basically designed for creating an NPC to challenge player characters. Thoughts? From what I can tell, the abilities stack well and very few people are resistant to necrotic damage, so it feels like a good twist on expectations.
I would still run this by the DM. Trying to rules-lawyer your way through table restrictions - which are designed to be common sense and not technical- is bound to rub people the wrong way.

[primren]

I would still run this by the DM. Trying to rules-lawyer your way through table restrictions - which are designed to be common sense and not technical- is bound to rub people the wrong way.

A fair point, but assuming it's allowed, I feel like it's the way to go.

Here are my match-ups (with my character always listed first):

Barbarian vs Wizard
Cleric vs Sorcerer
Monk vs Warlock
Bard vs Druid

[EvilAnagram]

A fair point, but assuming it's allowed, I feel like it's the way to go.

Here are my match-ups (with my character always listed first):

Barbarian vs Wizard
Cleric vs Sorcerer
Monk vs Warlock
Bard vs Druid

For a barbarian, the most important thing is to be able to attack it range. If you have a dwarven thrower, can win that fight. If you don't, shrug

[primren]

I would still run this by the DM. Trying to rules-lawyer your way through table restrictions - which are designed to be common sense and not technical- is bound to rub people the wrong way.

Actually, aside from the domain spells and features, I wouldn't change too much between the two of them, anyway, so I've got the Tempest built as a backup. I'll bust out the Death Domain and if there's any objections, I can just switch over.

[primren]

For a barbarian, the most important thing is to be able to attack it range. If you have a dwarven thrower, can win that fight. If you don't, shrug

Yeah...I've sort of accepted that there are some fights I might just not win.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah...I've sort of accepted that there are some fights I might just not win.

Maybe spend all your mondaine item budget on javelins?

[CTurbo]

nah if you can reach the Wizard on a dash and get next to him, you should win even without an action on your first turn as long as you're raging

[Armored Walrus]

That's something I noted in the arena. Barbarians often forget they can dash, so they rage on the first round, then keep moving 30' and throwing javelins to maintain rage. Get up on them first before you rage.

Also, take a bow, for crying out loud. If you're needing to resort to ranged damage, javelins aren't going to do it for you.

[Armored Walrus]

Curious if you've played this session and, if so, how it went.