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View Full Version : DM Help Keeping a detail fresh without revealing how important it is



Akolyte01
2018-04-02, 05:36 PM
Madaleen, Frochabar, Grula, and Haldi plz no read

In my last session the party searched through a series of books to piece together clues about where to go next. One of the excerpts they read detailed a legendary encounter between an ancient warrior (of relevance to the campaign) and a monster. That encounter included a magical wager that was seemingly completed when the hero slew the monster.

The twist is that the monster still lives (in a fashion) and the magical contract has yet to be decided either way. The twist within that twist is that the party is being manipulated toward discovery of the first twist so that the monster can complete her end of the wager to be fully resurrected. I want to give enough detail that they figure out the first twist on their own, luring them into a sense of security so they miss the hints I lay of the second twist (or at least figure it out later)

The problem is that there is a 3+ month gap between the last session and the next time we play, and it will be several more sessions at least after that until the final twist would come to fruition. In order for the twist to have impact, the players will have to remember or at least have access to the details of the encounter and the wager, but if I keep bringing it up enough that they remember it that will likely tip my hand.


Do any of you have tips for dealing with this sort of situation? I can give more specific details if needed.

So far, I've come up with the idea of printing out and giving them a written recap of the last several sessions, including the texts of the book puzzle. It will seem like I'm just making the effort because such a long time has passed between sessions but will give them access to the knowledge they need. However if I do that they still may not think to read it since it only provides a recap of things they already encountered.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-02, 05:44 PM
Normally, I'd suggest the three clue rule. (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) As smart as your players are in real life, many turn their brains off for gaming or are too busy applying those smarts to break it.

In this case, I'd make it a clue AVALANCHE. They'll miss some and get others. Be more generous as it's been a while. Just prepare for some to be missed, but they'll eventually get it long break or no.

As for the print out, cool. Add in some plot hooks in case they feel like they don't know what to do next, but have each plot give a potential clue as to the main plot. If they figure it out, fine. If they don't, hey, some loot and cool adventures.

A less elegant way is to just go over everyone's inventory. Something you might want to do anyway, and if you mention an ancient tome of knowledge they'll probably figure out it's important, just not HOW it's important.

If all else fails, have someone steal the book. Theft always gets their attention!

Akolyte01
2018-04-02, 07:04 PM
That article was great! Funnily I unknowingly followed that design philosophy when I designed the book puzzle for last session. Maybe it rubbed off on me from Warren Spector--was a guest lecturer when I was in college. :smallbiggrin:

The last part of the article about revelations especially gives me ideas. Breaking it down like that gives me a better handle on how to approach this.

Here's the wager the monster makes with the hero: “Plunge that shining sword through my heart and I will cough up your lover's pretty soul….. But if I instead strike you down? (cackles) As the last of your blood pools around your blade your soul will be mine forever.”

There are set of revelations that need to either explicitly reveal or have a set of clues lead to

The monster is still 'alive' (soul in her preserved heart)
The wager is still active
Driving the hero's sword into her heart will complete the wager


Additionally there are a set of revelations that will ultimately be revealed by the villain and so do not need redundant clues

The NPC they are with is the last of the hero's line
The NPC's lifeblood pooling around the sword will complete the wager
They are being manipulated toward this end



I already have plans for most of those points, so really what I need to nail down is what clues I need to have to show "the wager is still active"!

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-02, 07:35 PM
...The monster is still 'alive' (soul in her preserved heart)...

That sounds pretty evil, like it would be an evil artifact or something. And I think this problem is best solved with tieflings. Seriously, if a village keeps producing tieflings (NPCs can mention they were from there or have goods on their person from that location) that's a bit of an issue...And the heart buried somewhere might be the source of the taint on the bloodlines.

Otherwise, you'd think some evil person would study it or at least put it onto their mantle. Decor is important! Maybe she can communicate via the heart to nearby folks, so people complain of bad dreams or voices. Or really nice dreams that teach them magic, yaaaaaaay! How nice...


...The wager is still active...

Little bit more difficult, but I take it that he didn't exactly get his girlfriend back. So did he settle down with choice number 2, or is her spirit running around somewhere? She could be a powerful poltergeist who will NOT GO AWAY...But also can't communicate other then throwing things clumsily (so no cheating by writing things down) or has to possess someone which becomes confusing in its own right with two minds trying to communicate with one mouth.


...Driving the hero's sword into her heart will complete the wager...

Well, the group probably NEEDS the sword. Any cult or followers of this evil being will want it too. So the cult/followers can either steal the sword from its resting place, and the group is hired to go find it. Or the group is hired to return the sword to a false heir. The false heir can go on and on about their super-duper great ancestor (perhaps they are being duped) which might lay down some groundwork and hints of this being important.


...The NPC they are with is the last of the hero's line...

Does the NPC know of their heritage? It does seem like the hero was important. Maybe there's a few statues dedicated to the guy that look oddly familiar...


The NPC's lifeblood pooling around the sword will complete the wager

People could keep trying to murder or kidnap their NPC. After the third or so kidnapping attempt you'd think something was up, especially if they keep ignoring other targets or immolate themselves to avoid getting captured themselves. And PCs hate it when people steal their things! Also, reminder, have someone steal the book. That'll get their attention.


...They are being manipulated toward this end...

This one...Don't hint at. They'll assume it anyway after a few too many weird things happening, just have a clear idea of what the antagonists are doing. Sometimes organic hints are best.

Akolyte01
2018-04-03, 05:06 PM
Great ideas! Some may be hard to implement with how I have things laid out, but still great jumping off points.


That sounds pretty evil, like it would be an evil artifact or something. And I think this problem is best solved with tieflings. Seriously, if a village keeps producing tieflings (NPCs can mention they were from there or have goods on their person from that location) that's a bit of an issue...And the heart buried somewhere might be the source of the taint on the bloodlines.

Otherwise, you'd think some evil person would study it or at least put it onto their mantle. Decor is important! Maybe she can communicate via the heart to nearby folks, so people complain of bad dreams or voices. Or really nice dreams that teach them magic, yaaaaaaay! How nice...

Speaking to people in dreams is a good option! The monster is "Agutha the Hagmother", which as the name implies is the mother of all hags. It is especially fitting because who they currently anticipate as the big bad is a night hag. (who actually is part of a coven consisting of the Night hag, Agutha's heart, and a green hag who has been in disguise as a cryptic ally) Perhaps people near the heart can complain about the sound of a thumping heart invading their dreams that gets louder and louder. Or maybe the players themselves can experience it!



Little bit more difficult, but I take it that he didn't exactly get his girlfriend back. So did he settle down with choice number 2, or is her spirit running around somewhere? She could be a powerful poltergeist who will NOT GO AWAY...But also can't communicate other then throwing things clumsily (so no cheating by writing things down) or has to possess someone which becomes confusing in its own right with two minds trying to communicate with one mouth.

Oh man that is a great idea! Unfortunately I've already described the soul as being returned (Agutha released it to feign death and escape) Any other ideas here? This is the one I'm having the most trouble with without just explicitly revealing it.



Well, the group probably NEEDS the sword. Any cult or followers of this evil being will want it too. So the cult/followers can either steal the sword from its resting place, and the group is hired to go find it. Or the group is hired to return the sword to a false heir. The false heir can go on and on about their super-duper great ancestor (perhaps they are being duped) which might lay down some groundwork and hints of this being important.


Does the NPC know of their heritage? It does seem like the hero was important. Maybe there's a few statues dedicated to the guy that look oddly familiar...

The current plan is they will find the sword in the dungeon they are currently headed to. They are seeking the NPC who herself ran from home searching for the sword (to slay the hag the party knows about already). The hero was indeed important--he's the founder of the country the story has taken place in so far. My idea so far was that late in life he learned that Agutha was still alive, and fearing for his family he sealed away his sword with his dwarven allies, so they could use their long live give it to his heir when Agutha returned (the dwarfs of course died before this could happen). So the sword is sealed in a vault. So I've got the opportunity to explain as much or as little of this as I want through an inscription, or perhaps through having the vault only be openable by the hero's heir (would also explained how it lasted undisturbed for so long in the dungeon)



People could keep trying to murder or kidnap their NPC. After the third or so kidnapping attempt you'd think something was up, especially if they keep ignoring other targets or immolate themselves to avoid getting captured themselves. And PCs hate it when people steal their things! Also, reminder, have someone steal the book. That'll get their attention.

These are great!



This one...Don't hint at. They'll assume it anyway after a few too many weird things happening, just have a clear idea of what the antagonists are doing. Sometimes organic hints are best.
Good thinking.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-03, 05:31 PM
Oh man that is a great idea! Unfortunately I've already described the soul as being returned (Agutha released it to feign death and escape) Any other ideas here? This is the one I'm having the most trouble with without just explicitly revealing it.

Agutha, having claim onto his lover's soul decided to take it back after she had produced an heir and a spare for the ritual to occur. She made it look like she had perished in a house fire, while housing her soul into a ruby amulet.

Meanwhile, a thief has entered the coven's lair and stole the ruby as it called out to her. She'd like to get rid of her possessed ruby necklace, but thinks that she can't really dump it easily without raising a lot of questions. However, she's stolen quite a lot so there's a price on her head, so the PCs might be tasked to get rid of her. She's not inclined to speak of what she found, (as it might be so weird that she doesn't think anyone would trust her and it would be admitting usage of a stolen holy artifact) but she does want to recover the remains of her lover who perished in the attempt.

Three clues present: Getting the necklace and donning it/identifying it, earning the thief's trust (and potentially help), and perhaps the thief has more clues on her person that she's trying to fence or use against the killers of her lover.


The current plan is they will find the sword in the dungeon they are currently headed to. They are seeking the NPC who herself ran from home searching for the sword (to slay the hag the party knows about already). The hero was indeed important--he's the founder of the country the story has taken place in so far. My idea so far was that late in life he learned that Agutha was still alive, and fearing for his family he sealed away his sword with his dwarven allies, so they could use their long live give it to his heir when Agutha returned (the dwarfs of course died before this could happen). So the sword is sealed in a vault. So I've got the opportunity to explain as much or as little of this as I want through an inscription, or perhaps through having the vault only be openable by the hero's heir (would also explained how it lasted undisturbed for so long in the dungeon)

If the vault is opened by the heir, then there is no puzzle, but it does make for a mystery. But that just begs the question of why do something so simple against a hag? The dwarves could have TOLD the hero how to get in, further blocking the Hag. You need some more protection, dwarves have a positive wisdom modifier in most editions!

I think it needs to be housed in a holy vault to the dwarf gods. Not only does it give an extra layer of protection, it will give players worried about school/family/work/life in general a clue that this is important. I'm bad at puzzles, but why not a decoy sword? it could be a nice sword only usable by good aligned people that looks really nifty. I mean, if the heir got in, they might need some help! The real sword does something more defensive/protective, but only works for the NPC. The hags probably didn't get in, but it's nice to have layers of protection.

As for the inscription? It was on the outside. Something with claws ruined it, as if in a rage. Now, what has claws strong enough to rip apart metal like cloth? HRMMM...Also, why destroy it? perhaps the vault is untouched, but the areas leading to it are not. Someone REALLY didn't want others getting in...To the point where they MADE monsters live in those tunnels.

Also, they need to be ambushed outside of the cave. Need another hint? All bounty hunters with families, who have been kidnapped in order to force the bounty hunters to either retrieve the sword, or to slow down the party so the Hags can initiate another plan. Missing people in general can be a hint if the party gets stuck, as hags do need some snacks while plotting the downfall of the world.

What build is the NPC, by the way?

Akolyte01
2018-04-06, 06:22 PM
You are right that having the vault opened by the heir would eliminate the puzzle aspect of that segment, but of course my ultimate goal isn't to make a mystery-puzzle, just to include some twists and turns that feel earned and that the players have agency in.

I haven't decided completely on what class she will be. She is a very young noble woman. Naive and headstrong, but valiant and brave. What makes things difficult is she is young enough that she doesn't have much in the way of life experience, but I also want her to be level 2 so she isn't gibbed by the monsters in the dungeon. I've considered ranger (to cover her goal of slaying a hag), bard (she is obsessed with the lore of King Alber and is well read on legends), fighter (reasonable given her training under knights) and even war cleric. But I am leaning toward paladin. Maybe the vault can only be opened with holy magic??

I am definitely planning on having them be attacked by monsters as soon as she gets her hands on the sword in any case. The hags need her to get the sword and then kill her. So to create some mystery/foreshadowing here I'm thinking of having the final floor of the dungeon (where the sword will be) to be mysteriously empty of the monsters that were supposed to be there. Or maybe are there and are slain by some other entity...... The thrall/minion of the hag coven. In some backstory I've already given I've referenced the horned ogre minion of Agutha, Uurd, who was decapitated by Alber. So I'm thinking an Oni here with a gnarly stitched-together scar around his neck could also serve as a clue that Agutha is back.

The idea of Agutha recapturing Alber's wife's soul is a cool one, and could work well with the plot point that Alber grew forlorn and distant in his later years. I intended it to just be guilt and worry over Agutha coming after his children in the future, but losing his wife's soul while he is too old and gray to do anything about it would be a fantastic underlying reason for the kind of guilt and despair that would drive someone to abandon their kingdom and--maybe--use their life's energy in a ritual to seal away their magic sword..... Or maybe even seal away their soul in the sword itself out of guilt of what happened to their lover's soul?? Might be getting a little too special snowflake there though, hahaha