Plotting a backup character..

[EndocrineBandit]

My dm is running a waterdeep campaign and i may have to roll up a new character at some point in the future because he doesn't fudge rolls and pcs are their own worst enemy.. but... 28 point build, up to +2 level adjustment.. I'm torn between a halfling spellthief and go into joy stealer, or making a half-minotaur spirit shaman/crusader, use the racial adjustments for the physical stats and invest in mental. Ionno. We are playing with a large group, a total of nine people. A warblade, a sorcerer, im playing a wizard, two rogues, a monk, a fighter monk, a barbarian, and a cleric. Most bases are covered, so i feel i have some leeway with what i make. I was also thinking of a jaebrin bard maybe for the party buffs with how big the party is.

[Venger]

what do you mean "go into joystealer" as a halfling?

are you perhaps thinking of the luckstealer prestige class?

I see half-minotaur is on the table. is all dragon magazine content allowed?

With a group that unworkably large, your instinct to do either bard or spellthief is justified and you could probably have fun with either build.

What level are you starting at, and do you get buyoff, is the LA+2 free, or are you paying for it normally?

[EndocrineBandit]

Level adjustment buy off is on the table. Most printed things are on the table, as well. The dm won't allow an ubercharging pouncer or anything like that. Also, you are correct. The luckstealer is what i had in mind, i always call it a joystealer and I'm not sure why. Anyways, whether or not something is allowed has to be ran by the dm but as long as he doesn't see it as game breaking or stealing spotlight from the other pc's he is usually pretty lax about things.

[Elkad]

Most bases are covered, so i feel i have some leeway with what i make.
I love big parties.
9 people is great size for having fun. You get far more room to explore weird concepts.
You can build a total support character, or one who is way overspecialized in a specific task, or something that has lots of flavor but just isn't very effective at anything, and not gimp the party.

2 rogues already. I know a spellthief isn't quite the same, but you'll have a fair amount of overlap.
Bard looks like a good fit though.


With a group that unworkably large, your instinct to do either bard or spellthief is justified and you could probably have fun with either build.

Agreeing with your sentiment, but unworkably large? I feel the 2nd DM (to run the monsters while the first runs the story) isn't really necessary until about 12 players, and even then only once they get to mid levels (7+ anyway). Just have to be organized.
I prefer 6 players when I'm behind the screen, but I'd take 9 over 5 every time. If I'm stuck with 4-5, I'll encourage them to pick up cohorts and NPCs to fill the game out.

[Venger]

Agreeing with your sentiment, but unworkably large? I feel the 2nd DM (to run the monsters while the first runs the story) isn't really necessary until about 12 players, and even then only once they get to mid levels (7+ anyway). Just have to be organized.
I prefer 6 players when I'm behind the screen, but I'd take 9 over 5 every time. If I'm stuck with 4-5, I'll encourage them to pick up cohorts and NPCs to fill the game out.
Yeah, unworkably large.

Combat already takes forever in 3.5 with a party of 4. When you more than double that and have a bunch of casters, each combat round will likely take over an hour, even assuming no one's on their phones when there are eight other PCs ahead of them in initiative.

It's not just an issue of it being too much junk for one gm to handle (though that's certainly part of it) it's a problem of economy too. A party of 9 can out-action any on-CR enemy or group of enemies, and giving them an appropriate challenge numberswise will make combat stretch on even longer.

[Elkad]

At low levels, I can run a room stuffed full of enemies probably as fast as 2 player turns. No problem. Of course I trust my players too.
Yes, I do things like average die rolls. "OK, these 20 archers shoot at Joe, since he ubercharged their Shaman in the middle of a Parley and squished him. They need to roll a 15 to hit his AC, so 6 of them hit. And I'll manually confirm the possible crit - yup. That'll be 8d8+16 damage. Joe, take - uh, 9 times 4 is 36, so 52 - or roll the damage, your call. You've got 55hp, right? You probably shouldn't roll."
"Sally, Bob, Conan, Drizzzt - you get 5 arrows each (dice clatter). In order, that's 2 hits, 1 hit, 3 hits - you really should wear some armor Conan, and Drizzt- 2 would hit your images, but not you, randomize that. 1d8+2 per hit, roll it yourself. Don't forget to check your Blur Bob."
"Elminster, you speak Goblin, right? You hear a hobgoblin up on the big rock yell "wait for it", and 6 of them, one in fancy armor with a strange bone bow, are holding nocked arrows looking at you."
"Hellhounds move towards Shakira.. Oh, that's close enough. One of them yips, they all change course. Bilbo, the first 2 go past you within in reach. Want to break invisibility? No? One barks, they all turn to face you. Roll 5 reflex saves, the hellhounds found you with Scent and coughed on you."
"Shakira, Other than some crude comments from the guys on the rock, everyone ignores you as you dance for the entertainment of both sides. This round anyway."
"That blob of melee Hobs.. Well, they are in the Solid Fog, you have no idea what they are doing." (And then I can move them while the next player goes)

It takes longer to type it.

Same thing when they get fireballed. 3 of them roll an 18 to save and live. 17 of them die. They are numbered, so easy to roll 3d20 and select the survivors.

With casters involved, I'm usually working off a script for buffs for my monsters. And lots of different colored poker chips under the minis. Pink is Blur. Orange is Slow. Green is Haste. Etc. Standard buffs and their color assignment are on the wall next to the init tracker. Last couple colors of chips - out of the 12+ colors I have - are custom.

[Venger]

At low levels, I can run a room stuffed full of enemies probably as fast as 2 player turns. No problem. Of course I trust my players too.
Yes, I do things like average die rolls. "OK, these 20 archers shoot at Joe, since he ubercharged their Shaman in the middle of a Parley and squished him. They need to roll a 15 to hit his AC, so 6 of them hit. And I'll manually confirm the possible crit - yup. That'll be 8d8+16 damage. Joe, take - uh, 9 times 4 is 36, so 52 - or roll the damage, your call. You've got 55hp, right? You probably shouldn't roll."
"Sally, Bob, Conan, Drizzzt - you get 5 arrows each (dice clatter). In order, that's 2 hits, 1 hit, 3 hits - you really should wear some armor Conan, and Drizzt- 2 would hit your images, but not you, randomize that. 1d8+2 per hit, roll it yourself. Don't forget to check your Blur Bob."
"Elminster, you speak Goblin, right? You hear a hobgoblin up on the big rock yell "wait for it", and 6 of them, one in fancy armor with a strange bone bow, are holding nocked arrows looking at you."
"Hellhounds move towards Shakira.. Oh, that's close enough. One of them yips, they all change course. Bilbo, the first 2 go past you within in reach. Want to break invisibility? No? One barks, they all turn to face you. Roll 5 reflex saves, the hellhounds found you with Scent and coughed on you."
"Shakira, Other than some crude comments from the guys on the rock, everyone ignores you as you dance for the entertainment of both sides. This round anyway."
"That blob of melee Hobs.. Well, they are in the Solid Fog, you have no idea what they are doing." (And then I can move them while the next player goes)

It takes longer to type it.

Same thing when they get fireballed. 3 of them roll an 18 to save and live. 17 of them die. They are numbered, so easy to roll 3d20 and select the survivors.

With casters involved, I'm usually working off a script for buffs for my monsters. And lots of different colored poker chips under the minis. Pink is Blur. Orange is Slow. Green is Haste. Etc. Standard buffs and their color assignment are on the wall next to the init tracker. Last couple colors of chips - out of the 12+ colors I have - are custom.

Whatever works for you.

While dealing with such large numbers, bell curve definitely makes sense from a time-management point of view, normal play assumes you are handling combat acting for each individual monster, and that's what I assumed. This model of play for a party of 9 with the ensuing dozens of monsters in my experience does not function properly.

Sounds like you have a pretty good system. Do you preroll?

[EndocrineBandit]

Trickster spell thief might eliminate some of that overlap. As far as the flow of things, we usually get through three or four combats a session.. the enemies vary pretty greatly. The dm is using a lot of stuff from the undermountain modules and such.

Last campaign we played that had a large group of people i had a lot of fun playing a healer/marshall, playing mostly nonxombat role. I'm confident that just about anything i play will work well with the group, i guess i just don't know what to do. Too many options.

[Elkad]

Whatever works for you.

While dealing with such large numbers, bell curve definitely makes sense from a time-management point of view, normal play assumes you are handling combat acting for each individual monster, and that's what I assumed. This model of play for a party of 9 with the ensuing dozens of monsters in my experience does not function properly.

Sounds like you have a pretty good system. Do you preroll?

I don't preroll - I don't find it helps. I often roll one die for multiple creatures. "all the odd numbered spiders on this side of the road". Or tell my players "I need a d20 for every spider. Good, now pick up everything under 14. Put a lightblue chip under the rest of them." Spider's turn comes around. "All the blue ones spotted Bilbo sniping - lets see which ones can go eat him."
I definitely group initiative into no more than 4 chunks for my monsters.
I trust my players to check one anothers math, keep one another honest, and roll monster damage on themselves, or one another. Just like I trust them to not read my notes while I'm in the latrine.

The rest is just organization. Bookmark folders on my DM computer for each room. Middle-click the folder, all the creatures inside open. SRD, mythweavers, my own text files, whatever. If something with a sheet runs away, I drag his bookmark to the room he ran to.