Making sense of and optimising the Stone Spitter

[Jowgen]

The Stone Spitter is a Maug/Construct graft from Fiend Folio, most affordable at 2000 gp. I see potential in it


A stone spitter is a boxlike or binlike device, usually affixed to the shoulder of a creature. At the weapon’s base is a tube from which stones can be fired with amazing accuracy and deadly effect. A creature grafted with a stone spitter can use it to fire a stone or sling bullet by making a ranged attack. Such attacks have a range increment of 50 feet, dealing damage according to the grafted creature’s size (see Table A2–3).

Six times per day, the stone spitter can fire its ammunition at a supernaturally high velocity and power. Such attacks
deal damage one die type higher than normal (use the “Increased” column on Table A2–3) and have a +1 enhancement
bonus on attack and damage rolls. A stone spitter can be loaded with up to 50 stones or sling bullets

So first off, what kinda weapon does this thing count as? Is it a natural weapon like the Weapon Graft from the page before? If so, we can upgrade it via stuff like necklace of natural weapons. If not, can it be straight-up enchanted? I asked the RAW thread to no avail. Kind of an important point for further optimisation, not to mention it determines how it works in a full attack.

Opinions?

Next is the matter of ammunition. There are the various alchemical bullets, but they are kinda lackluster from what I've seen. In terms of enchantment, Phasing from Dragon mag is fun for shooting people through walls. Sickstone (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20021228a)might be worthwhile (DC 13 fort vs 1d2 Con damage), provided the character in question can resist the effects, though I am not too sure how much that would cost. Of course the highest end application is using Voidstone bullets, but I digress.

Anyone else got any ideas?

[Uncle Pine]

I've used these as optional enhancement to clockwork steeds refluffed as fantasy motorcycles in the past.

As far as we know stone spitters are ranged projectile weapons, with no further specifications. They aren't specifically called out as natural weapons, so unless I'm missing a universal graft clause they shouldn't count as such. As a weapon, they should be enchantable normally (provided you use a masterwork stone spitter as a base).

All in all, I consider it quite the stylish weapon. Sickstone bullets would definitely up it to fancy tier. :smallsmile:

EDIT: It's really a shame explosive from CW can only be applied on melee weapons, otherwise you could make rocket launchers with explosive stone spitters.

[daremetoidareyo]

Halfling Skiprocks?

[RoboEmperor]

The grafts in Fiend Folio seem to go out of their way to say if an attack granted by the graft is a natural attack or not, so I'm inclined to believe the stone spitter is not a natural weapon.

I don't think it gets iterative attacks due to high BAB.

As for ammunition, the Arrow of Bone spell comes to mind.

[Menzath]

As a PC the spell giant size, or the psi power expansion can get us to a good size for increased base damage.

Enchanted adamantine bullets of either splitting or returning.
Greater mighty wallop nets a large base damage increase.

Seems like the stone spitter itself can be enchanted similar to a sling or crossbow.
Not sure what type of action it is to load it.

Could be an interesting alternative to the standard bow in Archer builds.

[EndocrineBandit]

Returning is only on thrown weapons IIRC

[Menzath]

A sling bullet is a thrown weapon.

[daremetoidareyo]

Skiprock: Halfling weaponsmiths developed these polished stones. Each skiprock is perfectly weighted and shaped for throwing. If the skiprock hits its target, it ricochets toward another target of the thrower’s choice. The second target must be adjacent to the original target (no more than 5 feet away). The thrower immediately makes a second attack roll for the skiprock against the new target, with an attack bonus 2 lower than that of the initial attack. Although they are thrown weapons, skiprocks are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown. Skiprocks can be used as sling bullets, but using a skiprock’s ricochet ability in conjunction with a sling requires taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (war sling) feat.

Take the useless feat. Enchant your stone spitter to have the TOB aptitude ability, and get boomerang ricochet on your skiprocks. Mwah ha ha.

[Jowgen]

As far as we know stone spitters are ranged projectile weapons, with no further specifications. They aren't specifically called out as natural weapons, so unless I'm missing a universal graft clause they shouldn't count as such. As a weapon, they should be enchantable normally (provided you use a masterwork stone spitter as a base).

The grafts in Fiend Folio seem to go out of their way to say if an attack granted by the graft is a natural attack or not, so I'm inclined to believe the stone spitter is not a natural weapon.

I don't think it gets iterative attacks due to high BAB.

As for ammunition, the Arrow of Bone spell comes to mind.

Hmmm... the weapon graft only says "The weapon actually becomes a natural weapon, though its other properties are unchanged", which is not much in terms of it going out of its way and I think is needed since it's special in how it's a pre-existing weapon that gets made into a graft. Graft-based weapons don't have a universal clause that make them natural weapons, but Grafts are physically part of the creature, while "Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature". Also, now that I think about it, there isn't a single graft that allows attacks that counts as manufactured.

To that end, unlike with the Weapon Graft, I don't think you can create Masterwork/Magical versions. Stone Spitter exists only as the graft, and if you could make Masterwork Versions of it it should specify. Plus that would overlap with the 6/day enhancement bonus.

So I think this is one of those rare occurrences of a ranged natural weapon, like the manticore spikes. This opens up some interesting stuff, like ranged Touch of Golden Ice. Prevents BAB-reinteratives, but should allow secondary natural attack attacks.

Also, yes to Arrow of Bone.


As a PC the spell giant size, or the psi power expansion can get us to a good size for increased base damage.

Enchanted adamantine bullets of either splitting or returning.
Greater mighty wallop nets a large base damage increase.

Seems like the stone spitter itself can be enchanted similar to a sling or crossbow.
Not sure what type of action it is to load it.

Could be an interesting alternative to the standard bow in Archer builds.

Returning is only on thrown weapons IIRC

A sling bullet is a thrown weapon.

Yes to size increases. If one settles on it being a natural attack, there should be other convenient ways to increase effective size IIRC (note to self: Check Person Man's guide on the topic...).

Bullets are ammunition, while the Sling is a ranged weapon with the benefit of adding Str to damage "just as it does for Thrown weapons". They can't be splitting (arrow/bolt specific) or returning (ammunition destruction rule takes precedence).

As for Adamantine, I don't think it's necessary, provided you count it as a natural weapon. There be plenty of effects that let your natural attacks count as different stuff for DR purposes, notably eberron style construct grafts (which stack with this one for cumulative bonuses).

As mentioned, I fall in the natural weapon camp (which might be just me atm).

I doubt it'll come up while action costs matter, but yeah no clue how long it takes to load once the 50 run out either.

It does have the benefit of not requiring any proficiency, having any meaningful limit to how to reload and of course being non-disarm/stealable. Counts as a ranged attack, so ranged damage boosters should apply by and large. If its a natural weapon, you won't be able to use BAB-reiteratives with it, but you might be able to get multiple ones grafted. At least 1 per shoulder, and it does suggest they can be added on other body parts. inb4 walking turret build.


Skiprock: Halfling weaponsmiths developed these polished stones. Each skiprock is perfectly weighted and shaped for throwing. If the skiprock hits its target, it ricochets toward another target of the thrower’s choice. The second target must be adjacent to the original target (no more than 5 feet away). The thrower immediately makes a second attack roll for the skiprock against the new target, with an attack bonus 2 lower than that of the initial attack. Although they are thrown weapons, skiprocks are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown. Skiprocks can be used as sling bullets, but using a skiprock’s ricochet ability in conjunction with a sling requires taking the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (war sling) feat.

Take the useless feat. Enchant your stone spitter to have the TOB aptitude ability, and get boomerang ricochet on your skiprocks. Mwah ha ha.

I see your Aptitude weapon abuse and raise you a piece of RAW-reading cheese. They can be used as sling bullets. If you want to use ricochet with a sling you need the feat. But we are not using them with a sling, we're using them with a Stone Spitter. We can use richochet all we want. And even without enchanting the stone spitter directly, we can use an +1 aptitude necklace of natural weapons for the same benefit, as even (range) natural weapons are weapons.

[Menzath]

I get where you are comming from jogwen.
So we might not get iterive attacks if it counts as a natural weapon.

So some work arounds would be the rapidstrike feat and it's improved version.

Also the feat penatrating shot makes for some alright AoE.

Could get a little bump to the damage from psionic shot and greater version.

Also if it is a natural weapon warshaper could improve it's damage die by one step.

Odly deepwood sniper(though it requires bow specialization) its class features apply to all ranged weapons.

Edit: a side thought, could we have two of these grafted on? Or... More?

[flappeercraft]

Well you could reverse engineer Raptor Arrows and add the Phasing and Spell Storing enhancements. Add Fireball and you have a rocket launcher that can go past thin walls.

[RoboEmperor]

Hmmm... the weapon graft only says "The weapon actually becomes a natural weapon, though its other properties are unchanged", which is not much in terms of it going out of its way and I think is needed since it's special in how it's a pre-existing weapon that gets made into a graft. Graft-based weapons don't have a universal clause that make them natural weapons, but Grafts are physically part of the creature, while "Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature". Also, now that I think about it, there isn't a single graft that allows attacks that counts as manufactured.

I read the graft stuff from Fiend Folio only, and to my knowledge a graft becomes a natural attack if it explicitly says it does. Weapon Graft directly says it becomes a natural weapon, so does a myriad of other grafts in that section. They all say "one natural attack" somewhere in the description except the stone spitter and whip tail, but seeing how I failed to find a single instance of an attack not being a natural attack, I'm inclined to agree that the stone spitter is a natural attack.

I find enhancement bonus to weapons not a good investment however, seeing how there are spells like Greater Magic Fang and whatnot. This allows the amulet of natural weapons to confer stuff like Splitting instead of enhancement bonuses.

[Thurbane]

A sling bullet is a thrown weapon.

I thought a sling counted as a projectile weapon?

Ammo options for the Stone Spitter might include Blight Stone (MIC p.153), Glitter Stone (MIC p.161), Stench Stone (MIC p.186), Halfling's Exit (A&EG p.109) and Spider's Nest Bullet (A&EG p.118)

[Menzath]

I thought a sling counted as a projectile weapon?

Indeed a sling is a projectile weapon. But the bullets themselves are ammo AND thrown weapons. Interesting, no?

[Fizban]

The stone spitter seems cool, except it has no bonuses to damage. Bows have composite ratings, thrown weapons have str, and slings also have str. The stone spitter is from a "3.25" book and was probably based on the 3.0 sling, which did not get str. Give it str to damage and it doesn't need anything else fancy to be useful.

[Jowgen]

So some work arounds would be the rapidstrike feat and it's improved version.

Also the feat penatrating shot makes for some alright AoE.

Could get a little bump to the damage from psionic shot and greater version.

Also if it is a natural weapon warshaper could improve it's damage die by one step.

Odly deepwood sniper(though it requires bow specialization) its class features apply to all ranged weapons.

Edit: a side thought, could we have two of these grafted on? Or... More?

IIRC, rapidstrike only applies to natural weapons that come in pairs? Not well versed in this myself.

Penetrating Shot (or its cousin the exit would property) would be cool on these.

There is also Sharptooth and other such damage boosting spells, though better than those would be stuff that adds rider effects, in the vein Touch of Golden Ice does.

Odd thing with warshaper is that the Stonespitter would get bigger, but the bullets wouldn't?

I believe Peerless Archer might also work in the same odd manner. There is bound to be a bunch of stuff that says "ranged" when it meant to be for just bows.

For multiple Stone Spitters, the question is whether the Faiths of Eberron construct graft rules apply to the Maug construct graft rules. I lean towards yes, personally. If so, then there is a limit of 1 graft per bodypart, and while the Maug ones obviously don't specify which "graft slot" they take up, multiple of the same are probably out.


Well you could reverse engineer Raptor Arrows and add the Phasing and Spell Storing enhancements. Add Fireball and you have a rocket launcher that can go past thin walls.

This might be doable, but re-useable ammunition is a very slipper slope towards some broken as baator stuff. Even if a DM agrees to it though, it's not as useful on the Stone Spitter due to how it uses a mag of 50 and you only reallly reload between combats.


I find enhancement bonus to weapons not a good investment however, seeing how there are spells like Greater Magic Fang and whatnot. This allows the amulet of natural weapons to confer stuff like Splitting instead of enhancement bonuses.

Agreed that straight up +1's are ineffcient, but Splitting doesn't work, as it's explicitly Bow/Crossbow only.


Indeed a sling is a projectile weapon. But the bullets themselves are ammo AND thrown weapons. Interesting, no?

I checked and can't find any support for this. This does apply to Skiprocks though, maybe you're thinking of them?

Anycase, Skiprocks seems to make the best ammunition for this thing regardless, as the wording lets their ricochet work with the stone spitter. We should also be able to make Sickstone and other neat skiprocks. :smallsmile:


The stone spitter seems cool, except it has no bonuses to damage. Bows have composite ratings, thrown weapons have str, and slings also have str. The stone spitter is from a "3.25" book and was probably based on the 3.0 sling, which did not get str. Give it str to damage and it doesn't need anything else fancy to be useful.

Not an issue if I read this correctly. As it very much seems that the stone spitter classes as a natural weapon, the default rules for natural weapons and Str bonuses should apply, i.e. +1.5 on primary, +.5 on secondary. We know from the Manticore statblock that this applies to ranged natural attacks, and the text only states that damage is based on creature size, referring to a table that may only list die sizes, but so does every other weapon table.

So Str does get added as far as I can tell.

EDIT: It has just occurred to me that there might be a weird interaction with Power Attack here. You take a penalty on melee attack for a bonus on melee damage, but not "the damage dealt with a light weapon -except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks- even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies".