Any magic items you don't agree with the rarity of?

[jaappleton]

Going through the DMG, there's quite a few magic items I personally disagree with the rarity of.

The Frost Brand is one in particular. Its a +2 weapon, and it can extinguish flames when its drawn. This item is Very Rare.
Meanwhile, the Flame Tongue sword sheds bright light, and deals an extra +2d6 Fire. A common damage type, for sure, but still damaging, and only Rare.

I think the Frost Brand should be dropped down to Rare, personally.

Another is the Staff of Power. This item does quite a bit. +2 to AC, spell attack rolls, +2 to all saving throws (!!!), and lets you cast the staple spells: Wall of Force, Cone of Cold, 5th level Fireball and 5th level Lightning Bolt. Its also considered a Quarterstaff, so if you're a Monk that dips into Sorc, Warlock or Wizard... This is Very Rare, when I think its easily pushing Legendary status.

Just curious to see other peoples thoughts on some magic items, and if they disagree with their rating.

[Dudewithknives]

Going through the DMG, there's quite a few magic items I personally disagree with the rarity of.

The Frost Brand is one in particular. Its a +2 weapon, and it can extinguish flames when its drawn. This item is Very Rare.
Meanwhile, the Flame Tongue sword sheds bright light, and deals an extra +2d6 Fire. A common damage type, for sure, but still damaging, and only Rare.

I think the Frost Brand should be dropped down to Rare, personally.

Another is the Staff of Power. This item does quite a bit. +2 to AC, spell attack rolls, +2 to all saving throws (!!!), and lets you cast the staple spells: Wall of Force, Cone of Cold, 5th level Fireball and 5th level Lightning Bolt. Its also considered a Quarterstaff, so if you're a Monk that dips into Sorc, Warlock or Wizard... This is Very Rare, when I think its easily pushing Legendary status.

Just curious to see other peoples thoughts on some magic items, and if they disagree with their rating.

Dwarven Thrower should be Legendary.

+3 to hit and damage, extra 1d8 if thrown, and can be thrown for every attack, and it gets bonus damage vs giants. It also does not require you to actually be a dwarf.

Gauntlets of ogre power: Uncommon but all other 19 for a stat items are rare, it should be too.

Bracers of armor should be cheaper, only monk will ever really want them, everyone else will just use mage armor, or wear armor. If not made cheaper make it +3 armor.

[The Jack]

I think +1/+2/+3 should be waved with some armour. A +4 ringmail'd just be uncommon.

[Unoriginal]

Going through the DMG, there's quite a few magic items I personally disagree with the rarity of.

The Frost Brand is one in particular. Its a +2 weapon, and it can extinguish flames when its drawn. This item is Very Rare.
Meanwhile, the Flame Tongue sword sheds bright light, and deals an extra +2d6 Fire. A common damage type, for sure, but still damaging, and only Rare.

I think the Frost Brand should be dropped down to Rare, personally.

Another is the Staff of Power. This item does quite a bit. +2 to AC, spell attack rolls, +2 to all saving throws (!!!), and lets you cast the staple spells: Wall of Force, Cone of Cold, 5th level Fireball and 5th level Lightning Bolt. Its also considered a Quarterstaff, so if you're a Monk that dips into Sorc, Warlock or Wizard... This is Very Rare, when I think its easily pushing Legendary status.

Just curious to see other peoples thoughts on some magic items, and if they disagree with their rating.


Just to say, the rarity of an item doesn't directly correlate to its power level or its first-glance usefulness. A Ring of Protection has higher rarity than a Cloak of Protection despite having the same effects for a reason, after all, for example.

Now, personally, I think the Frostbrand +2 is quite a bit more powerful than the Flame Tongue +2d6 damages. Adding significantly to your chances to hit and 2 to your damage is better than simply adding an average of 7 to your damage, especially if you have multiple attacks.

Sorry, I couldn't think of an example of item I don't agree with the rarity of.


I think +1/+2/+3 should be waved with some armour. A +4 ringmail'd just be uncommon.

Forgive me if I sound rude, it is not my intention, but it sound more like you disagree with the AC provided by the game's armors than with the "magic item" part of the equation.

[Slurm Browley]

I think the Belt of Dwarvenkind kicks way beyond its coverage. You get most of the racial bonuses of a dwarf (+2 CON, poison resistance, darkvision), advantage on Persuasion vs. dwarves, AND get the chance to grow an increasingly epic beard.

[PhoenixPhyre]

+X to accuracy (or to AC) are significant bonuses. In fact, those are the prime determiners of weapon/armor rarity. Adding small amounts of commonly resisted damage is minimal, and light is tiny.

I made the mistake of not accounting for the +X items I gave a party. It meant that lower-CR creatures "timed out" faster and significantly strengthened the party in a way that +DMG ones or +Utility ones don't. That is, it actually affects the CR balance in a substantial way.

[OvisCaedo]

I might just be bitter since I dislike bards so much, but the Instruments of the Bards feel like they give WAY too much for three of them to only be uncommon. Free extra fly, invisibility, and protection from good and evil every day? And then several spells unique to the instrument? AND anything you cast that inflicts "charmed" gives enemies disadvantage on the save? What??

[Sariel Vailo]

Going through the DMG, there's quite a few magic items I personally disagree with the rarity of.

The Frost Brand is one in particular. Its a +2 weapon, and it can extinguish flames when its drawn. This item is Very Rare.
Meanwhile, the Flame Tongue sword sheds bright light, and deals an extra +2d6 Fire. A common damage type, for sure, but still damaging, and only Rare.

I think the Frost Brand should be dropped down to Rare, personally.

Another is the Staff of Power. This item does quite a bit. +2 to AC, spell attack rolls, +2 to all saving throws (!!!), and lets you cast the staple spells: Wall of Force, Cone of Cold, 5th level Fireball and 5th level Lightning Bolt. Its also considered a Quarterstaff, so if you're a Monk that dips into Sorc, Warlock or Wizard... This is Very Rare, when I think its easily pushing Legendary status.

Just curious to see other peoples thoughts on some magic items, and if they disagree with their rating.

I agree with your sentimets on both of those items.
The books of cap killers definitely legendary.

[The Jack]

Forgive me if I sound rude, it is not my intention, but it sound more like you disagree with the AC provided by the game's armors than with the "magic item" part of the equation.

Nah, ringmail is garbage and it should stay garbage.
But there's a certain novelty in having a set of -inferior armour- that has the protection of something better.

I am fond of -1 armour for "munition's grade" or "ill fitting"

[Crgaston]

I might just be bitter since I dislike bards so much, but the Instruments of the Bards feel like they give WAY too much for three of them to only be uncommon. Free extra fly, invisibility, and protection from good and evil every day? And then several spells unique to the instrument? AND anything you cast that inflicts "charmed" gives enemies disadvantage on the save? What??

Yep, this.

[mephnick]

Just to say, the rarity of an item doesn't directly correlate to its power level or its first-glance usefulness.

I think this was a major mistake. The items should have been ranked by power, not some arbitrary rarity system. New DMs are notoriously bad about unbalancing their game with magic items and it's like the 5e DMG is attempting to trick them into destroying their party balance.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think this was a major mistake. The items should have been ranked by power, not some arbitrary rarity system. New DMs are notoriously bad about unbalancing their game with magic items and it's like the 5e DMG is attempting to trick them into destroying their party balance.

The major source of imbalances in my experience are exactly the things that the rarity system keys off of:

+X to attack/AC/Save DCs
Level of spell emulated

Both of those have tables that correlate rarity.

I'd like to see a bit more workup, but it's not wrong as is written.

[Coffee_Dragon]

Use Sane Magical Prices (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XAiXpOfz9cMWt1RTBicmpmUDg/view?usp=sharing), save many headaches.

[mephnick]

The major source of imbalances in my experience are exactly the things that the rarity system keys off of:

+X to attack/AC/Save DCs
Level of spell emulated


And those guidelines are faulty by being too simple.

How are the Cape of the Montebank (lets you emulate a 2nd level spell once per day) and the Cloak of Displacement (lets you emulate a better 2nd level spell for virtually every turn you'll ever take again) on the same power level?

[OvisCaedo]

And those guidelines are faulty by being too simple.

How are the Cape of the Montebank (lets you emulate a 2nd level spell once per day) and the Cloak of Displacement (lets you emulate a better 2nd level spell for virtually every turn you'll ever take again) on the same power level?

Not that it's likely to change your mind much, but Mountebank is actually emulating a 4th level spell. It's Dimension Door, not Misty Step.

[PhoenixPhyre]

And those guidelines are faulty by being too simple.

How are the Cape of the Montebank (lets you emulate a 2nd level spell once per day) and the Cloak of Displacement (lets you emulate a better 2nd level spell for virtually every turn you'll ever take again) on the same power level?

Because neither of those cause significant disruptions to the encounter system?

Trying to judge each (situational) spell against every other one is an exercise in futility. It's a precision error--you're trying to be more precise than the data allows. Just like many of the DPR calculations do. The bands are, in most cases, pretty wide by design.

[mephnick]

Because neither of those cause significant disruptions to the encounter system?

So you're saying +X items do cause significant disruptions to the encounter system, but virtually permanent disadvantage doesn't? What?

[Theodoxus]

I gave a player a Cloak of Displacement... the only good thing about it, he's a moon druid, so in combat, it rarely comes up. But when he's knocked out of his form, he really appreciates the disad on attacks against him.

[Unoriginal]

I think this was a major mistake. The items should have been ranked by power, not some arbitrary rarity system. New DMs are notoriously bad about unbalancing their game with magic items and it's like the 5e DMG is attempting to trick them into destroying their party balance.

That's the thing, mephnick.

Magic items are unbalanced, and unbalancing.

Deciding to avoid the mistakes of 3.X and 4e, the maths of 5e were made to be balanced without magic items. Meaning that any magic item is, by definition, power added to this. AKA, the balance is disrupted.

The DMG isn't tricking anyone, it isn't saying "hey, all of X rarity are of the same level of power" (pretty sure it's also warning about the unbalancing power, but eh).

Sure, it not gamist, but personally, I much prefer magic items to be the strange, somewhat-arbitrary stuff of tales and legends rather than pre-programmed power boosts. I mean, a bag from which you can pull a bunch of furballs that turn into animals or a pipe that let you control rats are pretty amazing, even if they're not the most useful.

[mephnick]

Deciding to avoid the mistakes of 3.X and 4e, the maths of 5e were made to be balanced without magic items. Meaning that any magic item is, by definition, power added to this. AKA, the balance is disrupted.

Sure, of course. I just think there were better, more accurate ways of ranking them to guide newer DMs on that disruption of balance.

"Magic items aren't assumed so that means we're off the hook!" seems a little lazy.

[Unoriginal]

Sure, of course. I just think there were better, more accurate ways of ranking them to guide newer DMs on that disruption of balance.

"Magic items aren't assumed so that means we're off the hook!" seems a little lazy.

*Shrug*

No one would think that the Boons don't disrupt the balance, despite them being in the same chapter as magic items. We're just used to assume that magic items are part of the balance because 3.X and 4e did it like that, not to mention tons of other RPGs and video games, despite that assumption not being inherent to the concept, so 5e not following it feels weird.

I much prefer the image of Unferth loaning his magic sword to Beowulf due to the great respect the hero earned, even if said sword end up completely ineffectual against Grendel's mother, rather than the one of a guy going "nice, I farmed a gold-ranked weapon. Now I'm in the same tier than my buddies who also have gold-ranked weapons".

[BeefGood]

all the mithral armors being the same rarity, and that rarity being Uncommon. Plate mithral armor should be Rare, if only because in principle you could sell it for more than 1500 gp and then use the proceeds to purchase a Rare item.

[No brains]

Dwarven Thrower ... does not require you to actually be a dwarf.

Are you sure about this? If this is true, I would make a lot more warhammer builds.

[jaappleton]

Are you sure about this? If this is true, I would make a lot more warhammer builds.

Can confirm.

[Unoriginal]

all the mithral armors being the same rarity, and that rarity being Uncommon. Plate mithral armor should be Rare, if only because in principle you could sell it for more than 1500 gp and then use the proceeds to purchase a Rare item.

A mithral plate armor is worth 1500gp + the price of an Uncommon item.

The armor doesn't somehow get cheaper because you're making it of a more costly and more useful material.

[MaxWilson]

Dwarven Thrower... does not require you to actually be a dwarf.

I presume you need a steady supply of dwarves for ammunition, though, right?

[Potato_Priest]

The cube of force should be at least very rare. The barriers it creates are all incredibly tactically powerful.

The helm of teleportation (like the spell it casts) will break campaigns faster than you can say the verbal component of counterspell, and should come with a warning label.

[RustyArmor]

For me its the potions. Specially when you compare a potion of flying to a broom of flying. And speaking of broom of flying should be more then uncommon.

[BeefGood]

A mithral plate armor is worth 1500gp + the price of an Uncommon item.

The armor doesn't somehow get cheaper because you're making it of a more costly and more useful material.

I don’t understand.
Xanathars has uncommon magic items topping out at 600 gp (p. 126). Like you say above, the mithral can’t detract from the armor’s value, therefore mithral plate shouldnt be Uncommon. It should be Rare.

[MrStabby]

Weapon of warning is one that I think should be at least rare - not just in terms of raw power (though it has that as well) but in terms of the limits it puts on encounters.

It means that there are no longer appropriate encounters where the balance in held by the weaker side having the element of surprise, it is restrictive in terms of encounter design as well as reducing tension through not knowing what was nearby. it needn't be the most powerful item to be a fun killer.

[Elbeyon]

I don't like that the items are assigned a rarity based of the authors random whim. They didn't try to create a functional system were a rarity means something besides the authors thought the item shouldn't show up as much. Rarity as a system that measures nothing is pretty worthless. It does more harm just by existing than just giving a list of magic items.


A mithral plate armor is worth 1500gp + the price of an Uncommon item.

The armor doesn't somehow get cheaper because you're making it of a more costly and more useful material.

I don’t understand.
Xanathars has uncommon magic items topping out at 600 gp (p. 126). Like you say above, the mithral can’t detract from the armor’s value, therefore mithral plate shouldnt be Uncommon. It should be Rare.Unoriginal is saying they have a houserule were a magic item's base item has a cost.

[No brains]

Can confirm.


I presume you need a steady supply of dwarves for ammunition, though, right?

Perhaps I am missing something, but Requires Attunement by a Dwarf seems pretty clear? Is this because the RAW on attunement specifies that if an item needs a class/spellcasting the attuned creature must be a member of the class or a spellcaster, but is silent on other requirements? I don't get how the wielder doesn't need to be a dwarf...

[Biggstick]

There are definitely some Uncommon items that I don't agree with the rarity they've been given. I created a category between Uncommon and Rare and called it Exceptional. Falling in the Exceptional category are these 7 items.

Broom of Flying
Decanter of Endless Water
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Hat of Disguise
Headband of Intellect
Ring of Mind Shielding
Winged Boots

While these items aren't necessarily the most amazing, they're some that I see abused by Players more then others. The only exception I'd say that isn't really abused is the Headband of Intellect, as it's usually worn by a non-Wizard. I didn't want to leave the item out though in general.

[Potato_Priest]

@Biggstick Just out of curiosity, how do you usually see people abuse the ring of mind shielding?

[MaxWilson]

Perhaps I am missing something, but Requires Attunement by a Dwarf seems pretty clear? Is this because the RAW on attunement specifies that if an item needs a class/spellcasting the attuned creature must be a member of the class or a spellcaster, but is silent on other requirements? I don't get how the wielder doesn't need to be a dwarf...

In my case I'm AFB and don't have the requirements for the item memorized; I was just kidding around and forgot to blue my text.

[checks DMG] And... I can confirm that the Dwarven Thrower only works for dwarves. "Requires attunement by a dwarf," right there in the text, just as No Brains says. I'm guessing that this text probably wasn't in early printings of the DMG. I don't see it in the errata though (http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/DMG-Errata.pdf), which is interesting.

[Asmotherion]

I generally believe any Magic item that deals stackable damage and/or adds to your to-hit bonus, with the exception of class feature items, should either be a Campain-Defining Artifact or non-Permanent. Either make it a Consumable, run it on some Daily Charges, or give it more Charges and make it consumed on the last charge.

So, a Flame Tonge, or even a +1 Sword I consider ridiculusly unecesary for my games. I generally want my players to use magic items as a means to an end, and perhaps bond with a Cool weapon after they discover it's legacy, which will permit them to "unlock" some hidden power the weapon might have possesed secretly. But I don't like distributing +2 swords like healing potions on the loot day. I find it stupid.

[Potato_Priest]

Why do you think numerical bonuses to hit or damage are “stupid”, asmothereon?

[Asmotherion]

Why do you think numerical bonuses to hit or damage are “stupid”, asmothereon?

More specifically, I find them stupid on a non important magic item of non epic importance in the campain, specifically.

On one part, I feel it makes the player less relevant, as he relies more on an item to be effective than his own PC's abilities. It's like I tell him that "my Deus Ex Machina/RNG that spawned the Item made a big diferance in you all completing the campain, or else you might have failed".

Seccondly, when such an item appears, which is a reward from a whole questline (and of Artifact/Unique rarity), I expect them to respect it for what it is. If +2 swords appear all the time, I could describe to my players a lot of lore about the Artifact +3 Sword that is also a Flame Tongue and is called Excalibur, but it would be a lot more unique if it was the First and Only magical weapon they ever met. They estimate it's value a lot more, since the only experiance with magical items they have in my camain is the occasional cursed magic item, some magical apliances and scrolls and potions.

Finally, an item that has limited charges, has at least some resource managment. It is an ok reward that gives "something to think about". A +weapon or Armor is a plain buff that has zero resource managment, is always on. I'd rather allow my players dawntime to "train" their stats (outside of ASI/homebrew system for it), which effectivelly ends up giving them the same bonuses at the levels they would have them from those weapons (though they can't get stats past 20). It's a world managment perspective mostly.

[Tubben]

The Ring of the Warmth (Imunity vs cold up to ~-50 degrees and resistance to cold dmg) is uncommon, while every ring of resistance vs xyz is rare.

[Sigreid]

Dwarven Thrower should be Legendary.

+3 to hit and damage, extra 1d8 if thrown, and can be thrown for every attack, and it gets bonus damage vs giants. It also does not require you to actually be a dwarf.

Gauntlets of ogre power: Uncommon but all other 19 for a stat items are rare, it should be too.

Bracers of armor should be cheaper, only monk will ever really want them, everyone else will just use mage armor, or wear armor. If not made cheaper make it +3 armor.

My barbarian would love the bracers.

[nickl_2000]

They have been mentioned before, but the Winged Boots and many of the Instruments of the Bards are the two worst (in my opinion). They are both game changing for the player (I've seen it since I've had both), and only an uncommon.

[JackPhoenix]

My barbarian would love the bracers.

As will anyone with Mage Armor. It doesn't interfere with the bracers. So it's barbarian, monk, sorcerer, wizard and warlock. And possibly druid.

[sightlessrealit]

The Ring of the Warmth (Imunity vs cold up to ~-50 degrees and resistance to cold dmg) is uncommon, while every ring of resistance vs xyz is rare.

The ring doesn't stop you from taking cold/fire damage. You just don't need to make exhaustion saves in those environments.

[nickl_2000]

As will anyone with Mage Armor. It doesn't interfere with the bracers. So it's barbarian, monk, sorcerer, wizard and warlock. And possibly druid.

A Moon Druid LOVES bracers of armor if the DM lets them work in their wildshape form.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Staff of the woodlands (rare). It's a +2 staff, which already in the rare guidelines. Then add a +2 to spell attack rolls. Pass without trace becomes a cantrip, you get to have 6 spells that you no longer need to prepare and they go up to a decent sixth and great fifth level spell.

[jaappleton]

Staff of the woodlands (rare). It's a +2 staff, which already in the rare guidelines. Then add a +2 to spell attack rolls. Pass without trace becomes a cantrip, you get to have 6 spells that you no longer need to prepare and they go up to a decent sixth and great fifth level spell.

I actually never noticed the Pass Without Trace part of that item.

WOW!

So a Druid 2 / Rogue X becomes a monster. Sneak through areas, and for when you DO get to a place you can't sneak through, Wild Shape into a spider or something that's never going to be seen anyway.

[ZorroGames]

I think the Belt of Dwarvenkind kicks way beyond its coverage. You get most of the racial bonuses of a dwarf (+2 CON, poison resistance, darkvision), advantage on Persuasion vs. dwarves, AND get the chance to grow an increasingly epic beard.

To make it perfect - Curse it and give it to an elf...

Seriously, it should be pretty darn rare but that may be just me..

[ZorroGames]

I do feel compelled to say, give the percentage of home brew players here, why not just not give the item to the players?

Granted that AL modules might be an issue but AL is AL...

[Unoriginal]

I do feel compelled to say, give the percentage of home brew players here, why not just not give the item to the players?

But how would you give *** to the game designers for not doing something according to your personal assumptions otherwise?



Granted that AL modules might be an issue but AL is AL...

Don't really see how it would be an issue in AL, tbh.

[ZorroGames]

But how would you give *** to the game designers for not doing something according to your personal assumptions otherwise?



Don't really see how it would be an issue in AL, tbh.

First point: 🤣 so spot on!

Second, if these items drive you crazy and they are in a module can you not not give them? :smallamused:

[CircleOfTheRock]

I think this was a major mistake. The items should have been ranked by power, not some arbitrary rarity system. New DMs are notoriously bad about unbalancing their game with magic items and it's like the 5e DMG is attempting to trick them into destroying their party balance.
I absolutely agree - the information in Xanathar's should have been in the DMG. People are calling XGtE the second PHB, but's it's more like the second DMG in many respects.