Tier 3+ spells

[Tvtyrant]

What spells if they were class features would kick the class up to tier 3 or higher?

Essentially which spells are better in and of themselves then the combined class features of a tier 4?

The easy ones are spells like Shadow Conjuration (imitates lots of spells at once), planar ally (nets you an ally that is often stronger then you), and polymorph (take on monster features).

I'm going to ignore level 9 spells and epic magic, because the game really cracks there.

[Troacctid]

I don't think any one spell would, assuming it's gained at a typical expected level for the spell (7 for Polymorph, 13 for Limited Wish, etc.) and the starting chassis is an NPC class.

[Karl Aegis]

The only notable ability is the combination of Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer which gives you some really nasty abilities starting at level 15 when you can turn into the Phasm.

[Cosi]

I tend to agree. The guy who has just planar binding is (at a high enough level of power for planar binding to matter) probably better than most non-casters. Except he gets his first ability at 11th level, so for half the game he has nothing going on.

Obviously getting planar binding at 1st level would do it, but there are very few 6th level spells you could get at 1st level that wouldn't be absurd (basically, greater dispel magic and any status restoration effects).

[RoboEmperor]

Planar Ally is terrible. Absolutely terrible. Planar Binding on the other hand is awesome.

If you want spells with xp costs and versatility there is limited wish.

Surge of Fortune forces natural 20s which enables vorpal strategies among other ridiculous things.

Girallon's Blessing gives you 4 claw attacks which is crazy good early game if you have a high str score for damage.

Fly

Greater Dimension Door

Greater Blink

[Bucky]

I tend to agree. The guy who has just planar binding is (at a high enough level of power for planar binding to matter) probably better than most non-casters. Except he gets his first ability at 11th level, so for half the game he has nothing going on.

Obviously we're only considering the character's tier at levels where they have the ability.

[Gullintanni]

I think Alter Self as an at-will class feature, even with the 5 HD cap, would bump a lot of tier 4s up to tier 3.

[Troacctid]

I think Alter Self as an at-will class feature, even with the 5 HD cap, would bump a lot of tier 4s up to tier 3.
For existing classes, maybe. But on an NPC class with no other class features (or I guess if we're not considering lower levels, a monster race with however-many racial hit dice and no other racial abilities), I don't think so.

[Cosi]

alter self is probably good enough at 3rd to maybe 7th level (particularly if you're an outsider or something). But it's kind of crap at high levels. Being able to turn into a 5-HD outsider is probably nor enough to compete with (say) +10d6 Sneak Attack even if it's good enough to compete with +3d6 Sneak Attack.


Obviously we're only considering the character's tier at levels where they have the ability.

I mean, that's not how the Tier System nominally works, but sure.

In that case, the answer is "any of the broken Wizard spells". If you just care about the level range around the ability (which, if we're throwing out the concept of covering the whole progression, why not?) the answer is "pretty much any good Wizard spell". Getting just cloudkill at 9th level makes you a one-trick pony, but it wouldn't be ineffective.

[Falontani]

I honestly think we're looking at it wrong here. Giving a fighter one spell won't push them up unless the spell is already really powerful, and if the spell makes no thematic sense then it shouldn't be added to the fighter class.

Here is my idea:



LVL

BAB

Fort

Ref

Will

Special



1

1

2

0

0

Bonus Feat



2

2

3

0

0

Bonus Feat



3

3

3

1

1

Extraordinary Spell



4

4

4

1

1

Bonus Feat



5

5

4

1

1

Extraordinary Spell



6

6/1

5

2

2

Bonus Feat



7

7/2

5

2

2

Extraordinary Spell



8

8/3

6

2

2

Bonus Feat



9

9/4

6

3

3

Extraordinary Spell



10

10/5

7

3

3

Bonus Feat



11

11/6/1

7

3

3

Extraordinary Spell



12

12/7/2

8

4

4

Bonus Feat



13

13/8/3

8

4

4

Extraordinary Spell



14

14/9/4

9

4

4

Bonus Feat



15

15/10/5

9

5

5

Extraordinary Spell



16

16/11/6/1

10

5

5

Bonus Feat



17

17/12/7/2

10

5

5

Extraordinary Spell



18

18/13/8/3

11

6

6

Bonus Feat



19

19/14/9/4

11

6

6

Extraordinary Spell



20

20/15/10/5

12

6

6

Bonus Feat





Bonus Feat: As fighter bonus feats

Extraordinary Spell: At Third Level a Fighter gains a single First Level Transmutation Spell that may only affect himself. He may use this ability once per day. This is an Extraordinary Ability that is not dispelled in an Antimagic Field
At 5th level a fighter gains a first or second level transmutation spell that may only affect himself. He may use this ability once per day. This is an Extraordinary Ability that is not dispelled in an Antimagic Field
Etc so forth

Spells this would give him access to: Enlarge Person, Bull’s Strength, Alter Self, Polymorph, Haste, Fly, and many others, if we restrict the list to only the wizard list.
Finally set the Duration on all of these spells to be only Rounds/level.



Something similar could be done for many of the martial classes. This would solidly push a fighter to T3 by giving him versatility, while not making him more powerful than any spellcaster as a spellcaster. It would also give them less reliance on spellcasters to fight certain threats.

[lylsyly]

I think I would open up all the spell lists. Make a definitive list to choose from. At least as an (EX) using in armor won't be a problem ;). I am starting in a new campaign in a 2 or 3 weeks and know I can get the DM to let me try this, at least till level 10 or so (her campaigns usually end around there).

[Tvtyrant]

Obviously we're only considering the character's tier at levels where they have the ability.

This. I'm essentially looking to see what effects are good enough to be high tier, when you get them is less relevant.

For instance Solid Fog/Black Tentacles are very strong, but at-will black tentacles would cap out at tier 4 because it is just a hammer.

[Karl Aegis]

This. I'm essentially looking to see what effects are good enough to be high tier, when you get them is less relevant.

For instance Solid Fog/Black Tentacles are very strong, but at-will black tentacles would cap out at tier 4 because it is just a hammer.

Tier 5 or 6 because most things are either immune or it doesn't effect most things past a certain level. You're mostly going to be using it on humanoids and animals that can't fly so it loses it's luster when giants and just generally strong or big things start showing up.

[Lans]

Instead of looking at just one spell, why not look at a progression of spells, like alterself-->Polymorph-->Draconic polymorph-->Shapechange or prestidigitation-->limited wish---> Wishat the levels that a wizard gains access, to see if its good enough to maintain the character at tier 3 when on either a warrior, expert, adept or magewright.

[Tvtyrant]

Instead of looking at just one spell, why not look at a progression of spells, like alterself-->Polymorph-->Draconic polymorph-->Shapechange or prestidigitation-->limited wish---> Wishat the levels that a wizard gains access, to see if its good enough to maintain the character at tier 3 when on either a warrior, expert, adept or magewright.

I think the creation line would count as tier 3 under those. Minor creation at level 1, major at level 8, true creation at level 15.

[Gullintanni]

For existing classes, maybe. But on an NPC class with no other class features (or I guess if we're not considering lower levels, a monster race with however-many racial hit dice and no other racial abilities), I don't think so.

Exactly as I said - it has the potential to bump a tier 4 to a tier 3.


alter self is probably good enough at 3rd to maybe 7th level (particularly if you're an outsider or something). But it's kind of crap at high levels. Being able to turn into a 5-HD outsider is probably nor enough to compete with (say) +10d6 Sneak Attack even if it's good enough to compete with +3d6 Sneak Attack.

Even at high levels, it can add natural attacks, natural armor, skill bonuses and movement forms like flight. That's a lot of at will utility for say, a Barbarian.

Like I said, tier 4 increases to tier 3.

A high level Summon Monster spell would probably do the trick without any other class behind it.

[Troacctid]

Exactly as I said - it has the potential to bump a tier 4 to a tier 3.
I know that's what you said. But the question in this thread is whether it would be enough for a class that had nothing else.

[Zombulian]

I honestly think we're looking at it wrong here. Giving a fighter one spell won't push them up unless the spell is already really powerful, and if the spell makes no thematic sense then it shouldn't be added to the fighter class.

Here is my idea:



LVL

BAB

Fort

Ref

Will

Special



1

1

2

0

0

Bonus Feat



2

2

3

0

0

Bonus Feat



3

3

3

1

1

Extraordinary Spell



4

4

4

1

1

Bonus Feat



5

5

4

1

1

Extraordinary Spell



6

6/1

5

2

2

Bonus Feat



7

7/2

5

2

2

Extraordinary Spell



8

8/3

6

2

2

Bonus Feat



9

9/4

6

3

3

Extraordinary Spell



10

10/5

7

3

3

Bonus Feat



11

11/6/1

7

3

3

Extraordinary Spell



12

12/7/2

8

4

4

Bonus Feat



13

13/8/3

8

4

4

Extraordinary Spell



14

14/9/4

9

4

4

Bonus Feat



15

15/10/5

9

5

5

Extraordinary Spell



16

16/11/6/1

10

5

5

Bonus Feat



17

17/12/7/2

10

5

5

Extraordinary Spell



18

18/13/8/3

11

6

6

Bonus Feat



19

19/14/9/4

11

6

6

Extraordinary Spell



20

20/15/10/5

12

6

6

Bonus Feat





Bonus Feat: As fighter bonus feats

Extraordinary Spell: At Third Level a Fighter gains a single First Level Transmutation Spell that may only affect himself. He may use this ability once per day. This is an Extraordinary Ability that is not dispelled in an Antimagic Field
At 5th level a fighter gains a first or second level transmutation spell that may only affect himself. He may use this ability once per day. This is an Extraordinary Ability that is not dispelled in an Antimagic Field
Etc so forth

Spells this would give him access to: Enlarge Person, Bull’s Strength, Alter Self, Polymorph, Haste, Fly, and many others, if we restrict the list to only the wizard list.
Finally set the Duration on all of these spells to be only Rounds/level.



Something similar could be done for many of the martial classes. This would solidly push a fighter to T3 by giving him versatility, while not making him more powerful than any spellcaster as a spellcaster. It would also give them less reliance on spellcasters to fight certain threats.

I am continually astounded by how new you are here in contrast to how impressive your mind is.

[Anthrowhale]

If the 1 level-appropriate spell could change with the level as appropriate this seems doable. Something like:
Level 1-2: Power word pain.
Level 3-4: Alter Self.
Level 5-6: Anyspell
Level 7-8: Summon Giants?
Level 9-10: Draconic Polymorph
Level 11-12: Greater Anyspell
Level 13-14: .... not sure
Level 15-16: Polymorph Any Object
Level 17-18: Shapechange (or Miracle? It depends on the number of spells/day)

This might even qualify for Tier 2.

A divine crusader that managed to get access to both the Spell and Transformation domains would be a fair approximation of the above.

[ericgrau]

I think Alter Self as an at-will class feature, even with the 5 HD cap, would bump a lot of tier 4s up to tier 3.

A lot of spells obtained at the appropriate level are super powerful at will. 1/day OTOH, nah.

[RoboEmperor]

A divine crusader that managed to get access to both the Spell and Transformation domains would be a fair approximation of the above.

1. Divine Crusaders only get 1 domain.
2. By direct RAW no deity has the Transformation Domain, therefore unavailable to the Divine Crusader.

[Lans]

1. Divine Crusaders only get 1 domain.
2. By direct RAW no deity has the Transformation Domain, therefore unavailable to the Divine Crusader.

There are prestige classes that add additional domains

[Anthrowhale]

1. Divine Crusaders only get 1 domain.
2. By direct RAW no deity has the Transformation Domain, therefore unavailable to the Divine Crusader.

Yeah, tricky. Maybe Divine Crusader[spell] who turns agnostic and picks up Transformation via Contemplative?

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, tricky. Maybe Divine Crusader[spell] who turns agnostic and picks up Transformation via Contemplative?

Contemplative says it grants a bonus domain available to you by your Deity or Alignment, as in if you're agnostic you can only get law, chaos, good, or evil domains via contemplative.

Also I'm pretty sure no deity = no divine crusader. So if you become agnostic you can never advance in a divine crusader again in addition to losing all spells.

[Lans]

A shapechanger that worships a pantheon should be RAW

[RoboEmperor]

A shapechanger that worships a pantheon should be RAW

I'm not familiar with pantheon rules. I guess this does satisfy Transformation Domain's RAW as the shapechanger doesn't worship a specific deity, but the RAW for a Divine Crusader is "Every divine crusader has a chosen deity." If the Pantheon rules says to ignore these restrictions then I guess you're good to go.

[Lans]

I'm not familiar with pantheon rules. I guess this does satisfy Transformation Domain's RAW as the shapechanger doesn't worship a specific deity, but the RAW for a Divine Crusader is "Every divine crusader has a chosen deity." If the Pantheon rules says to ignore these restrictions then I guess you're good to go.

Divine Crusader uses the term chosen, and not worshiped so it works. Also, the DC doesn't loose its casting by turning its back on its chose deity just by alignment change