Sorcerer specialty? novice advice

[kweek]

Hey! Any tips on specialties and play for a novice Sorceress? Suggestions or advice of any kind would be awesome; I don't want to goof up a Sorcerer from the start. Thanks!

I'm new to D&D (3.5) and it's killer! I could of course use some help though; I need suggestions for the direction of my Sorceress. She's my only my second character, and my first magic character altogether. It took me until level 4 for it to really sink in how important spell choice is across all levels (duhhh); I haven't been thinking strategically enough. My DM checked in asking how I was feeling about the Sorceress and if I was considering a sort of specialty. I've leaned on the DM (my buddy) a lot through the development of her, so I'd like to seek advice elsewhere; both to give him a rest and so he doesn't know so much about her. Any suggestions are appreciated!

I started focusing on whatever offensive spells I could get right away, didn't think of much else. Now I see I need to focus. I've been looking at ranged offensive and disabling capabilities. How can I kick ass and still assist my team the best? Party info maybe useful; I'm an Elven Sorceress in a party with a Human Paladin, Gnome Ranger, Elf Ranger, Half Elf Cleric, Halfling Rogue.

[Eldariel]

Hey! Any tips on specialties and play for a novice Sorceress? Suggestions or advice of any kind would be awesome; I don't want to goof up a Sorcerer from the start. Thanks!

I'm new to D&D (3.5) and it's killer! I could of course use some help though; I need suggestions for the direction of my Sorceress. She's my only my second character, and my first magic character altogether. It took me until level 4 for it to really sink in how important spell choice is across all levels (duhhh); I haven't been thinking strategically enough. My DM checked in asking how I was feeling about the Sorceress and if I was considering a sort of specialty. I've leaned on the DM (my buddy) a lot through the development of her, so I'd like to seek advice elsewhere; both to give him a rest and so he doesn't know so much about her. Any suggestions are appreciated!

I started focusing on whatever offensive spells I could get right away, didn't think of much else. Now I see I need to focus. I've been looking at ranged offensive and disabling capabilities. How can I kick ass and still assist my team the best? Party info maybe useful; I'm an Elven Sorceress in a party with a Human Paladin, Gnome Ranger, Elf Ranger, Half Elf Cleric, Halfling Rogue.

What sources are you working with and what's your current spell selection? Level 4 is nice: you just hit level 2 spells so you have some extras to work with. Core (PHB) spells of particular note on low levels are:
1. Grease, Color Spray, Sleep, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image, Charm Person, Protection from Evil, (Mage Armor)
2. Glitterdust, Web, Pyrotechnics, Invisibility, Command Undead, Alter Self, (False Life)

The spells in brackets are luxury defenses you prepare when you have extra spells known on this level. At this point you can probably afford Mage Armor. My advice is the opposite of your DM's; the game tends to reward generalisation rather than specialisation. If you know a spell to take down big dumb brutes (Glitterdust, Grease, Color Spray are all good) and a spell to take down agile buggers (Glitterdust, Color Spray, Pyrotechnics, Sleep all work), a spell to take down backline threats (Ray of Enfeeblement, Web) and a spell to take down mindless enemies (Silent Image, Glitterdust) you're much better off overall than if all your spells are good only against big dumb bruisers.

As a sorcerer, you can pick Heighten Spell and down the line use the lower level crowd control effects with higher level DCs to get by with one spell known for each save. Glitterdust and Web are great choices and Grease is worth knowing for general utility anyways. Rest, adjust to tune. Definitely make sure to at least have scrolls of situationally very powerful effects like Protection from Evil (blocks mind control entirely) and Silent Image (illusions in general particularly shine against mindless things since they lack the wits to test if it's real).

On this level you still lack a good Fort-save targeting spell. Next level has Stinking Cloud to that end but Spell Compendium contains Wall of Smoke which is a 1st level version of Stinking Cloud, and also a very strong way to address this particular deficiency.

As a Sorc, just remember that you can be good at anything but not everything. Pick carefully and make sure to cover your bases at least far as being able to attack Will/Ref/Fort/Touch and have utility go. Enlarge Person is a nice spell to know since giving a beatstick reach and bigger damage dice is almost always useful for example. Charm Person is a great non-combat spell that fills a niche you might have trouble filling otherwise, Invisibility is great both in and out of combat (and your Rogue will love you), and Command Undead allows you to build a personal cavalcade of undead underlings to tank for you and do things for you; turn enemies into allies for days/level!

Alter Self does everything from granting you any movement modes and skill bonuses to giving you lots of natural armor (+6 from Trogdolyte, +8 from Tren) and natural attacks and some special qualities (Trogdolyte Stench for example) so it's a very powerful, versatile personal spell that does almost anything. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2811)

[Falontani]

Also look into the summoning lines. At low level they won't help too much, but later on you can choose one summon monster to gain access to a large variety of creatures as Summon Monster IX (the highest one) can summon any monster from 1-9 making it have great utility.

Debilitating effects are worth much more than they seem at first glance.

Damage spells are very rarely worthwhile to focus in, but it is boring to play a sorcerer that doesn't have some blasting potential. I would suggest 1-2 blasting spells every other level at most. So at low levels if you grab Burning hands then dont grab scorch or scorching ray immediately.
If your blasting spell has secondary effects that are useful (like ice storm, cloudkill, and Delayed Blast Fireball) then they are better choices than one and done spells (Fireball, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold)

Finally since your still low level look into prestige classes. You will want to join a prestige class that doesn't cost you any spellcasting levels and grants you something, perhaps a theme, additional spells, or even just a little bit more of an edge in combat.

[Zombulian]

Hey! Any tips on specialties and play for a novice Sorceress? Suggestions or advice of any kind would be awesome; I don't want to goof up a Sorcerer from the start. Thanks!

I'm new to D&D (3.5) and it's killer! I could of course use some help though; I need suggestions for the direction of my Sorceress. She's my only my second character, and my first magic character altogether. It took me until level 4 for it to really sink in how important spell choice is across all levels (duhhh); I haven't been thinking strategically enough. My DM checked in asking how I was feeling about the Sorceress and if I was considering a sort of specialty. I've leaned on the DM (my buddy) a lot through the development of her, so I'd like to seek advice elsewhere; both to give him a rest and so he doesn't know so much about her. Any suggestions are appreciated!

I started focusing on whatever offensive spells I could get right away, didn't think of much else. Now I see I need to focus. I've been looking at ranged offensive and disabling capabilities. How can I kick ass and still assist my team the best? Party info maybe useful; I'm an Elven Sorceress in a party with a Human Paladin, Gnome Ranger, Elf Ranger, Half Elf Cleric, Halfling Rogue.

First off, is your DM letting you mess with spells you already know, or are you just trying to take a new direction moving forward?
If the latter is true, what spells do you already know?

Anyhow, when it comes to Sorcerers, you need to make the most of the few spells known you'll have, specializing is the last thing you want to do, so pick spells with lots of utility, reserving only a few for damage (especially since you can pick up Metamagic later to change damage type and such to get around resistances). Grease is great, though it'd be better if you had a Rogue (two rangers huh? yeesh.). Enlarge Person may be useful to put on your Paladin. The Summon Monster line of spells can be pretty useful (Summon Monster I can pretty much replace the need for a Rogue if you're ok with just triggering traps instead of disabling them). The Conjure Ice Beast line can set up some neat damage and action economy stuff. Alter Self can give you nice movement of defense options (shifting to a form with flight or high natural armor, for example).

Edit: Missed the halfling rogue part. Doubling down on my Grease suggestion as well as the Summoning spells (free flanking buddy!).

[kweek]

Thanks, awesome help! Source is the base game (if that's what you're asking) and my starting spells are these:
1) Magic Missile, Color Spray, Shield, Animate Rope,
Grease 2) Flaming Sphere, Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
Already I've got regret, but no biggie I'm definitely taking Alter Self next, that sounds awesome and damn handy! Great link. You know, I think the generalization would be a good choice for my assumed style. Maybe I'll look at the spells I like and their schools of magic to see if I could focus on those spell types. My DM would work most any cool ideas in for types or specifics I bet.
I've taken the Empower Spell feat so far, Heighten looks like it would be a good choice at lvl 6. I've been looking at Slow for my first 3rd level spell (worked well in a lvl 10 one-off); any recommendations instead of that?

Summon Monster 3 I thought would be the lowest for that I'd get; definitely want it at some level.
I'll look into prestige class, I've heard it mentioned but didn't really understand it; I'll look it up.

No fiddling around with spells; I think he was just trying to see if I wanted to go in a certain direction

[Cosi]

Command Undead

command undead is way too niche to spend a slot on unless you're in some kind of anti-undead campaign. It works against one creature type, and is only really effective against a subset of that type. It is devastatingly effective when it works, but it is insane when it works. It is practically the definition of a Wizard spell.


a spell to take down mindless enemies (Silent Image, Glitterdust)

I can't recommend silent image highly enough for dealing with mindless enemies. A mindless opponent will generally be completely unable to cope with "snipe it from behind an illusion of a wall" at any level. Even against enemies with minds, it can be very effective depending on what the DM interprets on allowing a save/granting a bonus on a save. It's one of the best spells for a creative player, and it only takes a 1st level slot (also, Shadowcraft Mage is not a bad long term plan if you play a Gnome).


Also look into the summoning lines. At low level they won't help too much, but later on you can choose one summon monster to gain access to a large variety of creatures as Summon Monster IX (the highest one) can summon any monster from 1-9 making it have great utility.

I would never pick summon monster as a top level slot -- it's just too anemic offensively. Picking up summon monster IV (I think that's the first one to get Mephits) at ~10th level gets you a nutty amount of utility though.

[kweek]

Wow, lots of prestige classes! Anybody mind sharing a favorite prestige class for their sorcerers. I'm looking, but daaamn there are a lot to sift through. Do any have more spells per day or spells known? I am looking for myself too, I promise; just so many.

[Zombulian]

Wow, lots of prestige classes! Anybody mind sharing a favorite prestige class for their sorcerers. I'm looking, but daaamn there are a lot to sift through. Do any have more spells per day or spells known? I am looking for myself too, I promise; just so many.

When you said that sources were "the base game" does that mean just Core (Player's Handbook, Monster Manual, Dungeon Master's Guide)? Because then there aren't actually that many PrC's to pick from.

[kweek]

Ah, I see. Thank you; yup core.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ah, I see. Thank you; yup core.

90% of the material from the core game can be found here; http://d20srd.org/index.htm ; under the links on the left column. The center column is variant rules from other sources so ask your DM. The right column is various tools for some of the more tedious parts of the game.

[kweek]

Sorry so basic, but I'm having trouble finding solid answer on spells and spells per day; now I've got real people available for an answer. The Bonus Spells provided by my Ability Modifier; are those a bonus to Spells Known or Spells per day? I've got a Cha modifier of +5, so to what are those bonuses applied; known or per day? .. Sweet guide Kelb_Panthera Thanks!

[Cosi]

In core, I'm pretty sure that your only real option as a Sorcerer is Archmage. You can't actually qualify for Loremaster as a straight Sorcerer until 17th level (you only have one Knowledge as a class skill), the Theurge PrCs don't really work as straight Sorcerer, you can't become a Red Wizard because Tattoo Focus requires you to be specialized in a school of magic (which, as a Sorcerer, you are not), and Thaumaturgist requires you to be able to cast a spell Sorcerers don't learn.

Outside of core, there's not much that's amazing for Sorcerers specifically. Generically good PrCs are good. Shadowcraft Mage is marginally higher value because you learn less spells. Anima Mage is cool if you can get in with a 1-level Binder dip (though it declines in the long term when you run out of class levels and your binding falls behind). Really, you can make almost anything work, so it depends to a large degree on your concept. I would generally caution against giving up caster levels though, because it puts you an enter level behind the Wizard.

[Zombulian]

Sorry so basic, but I'm having trouble finding solid answer on spells and spells per day; now I've got real people available for an answer. The Bonus Spells provided by my Ability Modifier; are those a bonus to Spells Known or Spells per day? I've got a Cha modifier of +5, so to what are those bonuses applied; known or per day? .. Sweet guide Kelb_Panthera Thanks!

Just a bonus to spells per day. Look at this table. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores)

[kweek]

Awesome people! You're all a great help. I might have it together finally

[Telonius]

Yeah, the big limiting factor of Sorcerers is that you only have a small number of Spells Known. In "Core" D&D, this means you really have to pick those spells well. A bad choice isn't totally catastrophic - you can switch out one spell known for another at each even level after 4th - but it's not like you're a Wizard and can just go down to Ye Olde Magick Shoppe and scribe another necessary scroll into your spellbook.

What you really don't want to do is get into a situation where you only have a few spells, and the monster you're fighting is immune to them all, or they aren't appropriate to the situation. For example, don't learn just cold spells; if you run into undead (which are immune to cold) you're not going to be able to do anything useful. At least in Core, sticking to a single specialty is actually not that great of a strategy for a Sorcerer. You want to pick things that are generally versatile, that you're going to want to use in every (or almost every) combat. (Outside of Core, there are a lot of ways to help add spells to your list, but as is you'll just have to pick carefully).

That's not to say, don't go with a theme. Just be sure to take things that are going to be generally relevant while still supporting the theme.

I would strongly suggest that you look at the "Shadow Evocation" and "Shadow Conjuration" spells, when you're high enough level to cast them. Just those two spells can emulate multiple other spells that you might need.

[Arkain]

If you're using only Core then you're mostly out of luck in terms of prestige classes, as has been said. Archmage might be worth it, but costs a lot of feats and you don't bonus feats, unlike a wizard. If your group allows other sources, obvious ones would be Spell Compendium, which really broadens your options and Sandstorm, for the Sand Shaper prestige class (costs you a caster level, but gets you some 40 spells known) - if that fits with your flavor at all, of course. There's others too, with various flavors of celestial, fiendish or whatever influence, but then again, you're currently in Core only.

As has been said, you can certainly try limiting yourself to only a few spells whose DC you then improve via Heighten Spell. What this implies is of course that you should also try to not needlessly double spells. Teleport or Greater Teleport, not both, that kind of thing. Tricky though, as often there's an improved version in the higher spell levels that might be worthwhile anyway, especially in the realm of fog spells, so it's worthwhile to have both Solid Fog and Stinking Cloud, for example (of course the point there isn't so much only the fog anymore, as with say Fog Cloud). And sometimes the improved version is just so much better that you might want to swap the lesser spell out when you get the opportunity.

[Sleven]

My advice would be to not specialize. Generally, when people talk about sorcerers and specialization, they're talking about feats. Feats generally only influence a few key spell choices (that they are intended to synergize with), beyond that it's mostly about covering the bases for yourself (first) and your party (second).

Here's one of my corecerer spell lists you can feel free to steal from:

Spells:
1 - Grease, Magic Missile, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image
2 - Glitterdust, Web, Mirror Image, Resist Energy, Rope Trick
3 - Fly, Haste, Stinking Cloud, Magic Circle Against Good
4 - Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Resilient Sphere, Dimensional Anchor
5 - Telekinesis, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Baleful Polymorph
6 - Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Planar Binding
7 - Summon Monster VII, Limited Wish, Plane Shift
8 - Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Greater Shadow Evocation
9 - Shapechange, Time Stop, Disjunction

You might actually want to take the Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats with a core list like this. Take Spell Focus (Transmutation) and (Conjuration) if you intend to go into Archmage. If you do, you probably don't need more than 2 levels of it.

Pick your Magic Circle according to the types of creatures you want to bind (probably good, unless you take Greater Planar Binding, but also because you have a Paladin). The anti compulsion, possession, etc. effect works regardless of alignment and is what really matters about the spell.

You probably won't need Disjunction (depending on your DM). In this instance, feel free to grab something like Gate and lose Plane Shift for something like Greater Shadow Conjuration or Greater Arcane Sight. Alternatively, use it to get something like Dominate Monster or Prismatic Sphere and keep Plane Shift (since it can be used offensively).

You'll be relying on the creatures you call and summon for detection, divination, healing, and a few other things. They effectively expand your spell list. In the meantime, you can feel free to pick up See Invisibility or something if your DM starves you for items.

Polymorph Any Object is always a clutch pick for an 8th, but in this case you'll want to replace it with Greater Shadow Evocation, which will leave you without Contingency (unless you want to replace a 6th).

In the early levels you'll want to keep 1 or 2 (scaling) blasting spells and then trade them out later (remember, if a creature's low on HP and your turn comes around it's on you to finish them off). You'll also want the base version of Dispel Magic until ~ level 14-16, at which point you'll be trading it out.

[Eldariel]

command undead is way too niche to spend a slot on unless you're in some kind of anti-undead campaign. It works against one creature type, and is only really effective against a subset of that type. It is devastatingly effective when it works, but it is insane when it works. It is practically the definition of a Wizard spell.

Well, you can also combine it with your own Animate Dead to essentially infinitely expand your control pool, albeit that comes online a bit later.


My advice would be to not specialize. Generally, when people talk about sorcerers and specialization, they're talking about feats. Feats generally only influence a few key spell choices (that they are intended to synergize with), beyond that it's mostly about covering the bases for yourself (first) and your party (second).

Here's one of my corecerer spell lists you can feel free to steal from:

Spells:
1 - Grease, Magic Missile, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement, Silent Image
2 - Glitterdust, Web, Mirror Image, Resist Energy, Rope Trick
3 - Fly, Haste, Stinking Cloud, Magic Circle Against Good
4 - Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Resilient Sphere, Dimensional Anchor
5 - Telekinesis, Teleport, Wall of Stone, Baleful Polymorph
6 - Greater Dispel Magic, Disintegrate, Planar Binding
7 - Summon Monster VII, Limited Wish, Plane Shift
8 - Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Greater Shadow Evocation
9 - Shapechange, Time Stop, Disjunction

You might actually want to take the Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration feats with a core list like this. Take Spell Focus (Transmutation) and (Conjuration) if you intend to go into Archmage. If you do, you probably don't need more than 2 levels of it.

Pick your Magic Circle according to the types of creatures you want to bind (probably good, unless you take Greater Planar Binding, but also because you have a Paladin). The anti compulsion, possession, etc. effect works regardless of alignment and is what really matters about the spell.

You probably won't need Disjunction (depending on your DM). In this instance, feel free to grab something like Gate and lose Plane Shift for something like Greater Shadow Conjuration or Greater Arcane Sight. Alternatively, use it to get something like Dominate Monster or Prismatic Sphere and keep Plane Shift (since it can be used offensively).

You'll be relying on the creatures you call and summon for detection, divination, healing, and a few other things. They effectively expand your spell list. In the meantime, you can feel free to pick up See Invisibility or something if your DM starves you for items.

Polymorph Any Object is always a clutch pick for an 8th, but in this case you'll want to replace it with Greater Shadow Evocation, which will leave you without Contingency (unless you want to replace a 6th).

In the early levels you'll want to keep 1 or 2 (scaling) blasting spells and then trade them out later (remember, if a creature's low on HP and your turn comes around it's on you to finish them off). You'll also want the base version of Dispel Magic until ~ level 14-16, at which point you'll be trading it out.

If you have PAO, you can generally make do without Disintegrate as it does most of the same things and then some. This list also can't Polymorph allies, which is another thing it'd do. Obviously, removing Greater Shadow Evocation does a lot more than just remove Contingency from your list though. And yeah, you can have Permanencied Arcane Sight to make up for that deficiency; you don't really need See Invisibility that much anyways since most things that are invisible are so because of magic or at least carries magic items (Hellcat, Invisible Stalker & Will-O'-Wisp not withstanding). Glitterdust tends to suffice against the rest.

The above list might also benefit of Black Tentacles over e.g. Dimensional Anchor (I tend to prefer Dimensional Lock anyways, which can be scrolled for when you need it; it's pretty niche for when you need to stop someone's movements without killing them).

@OP: Slow is a really good spell but you'll have to think about if it's better enough than Glitterdust to be worth a slot. It can hit a larger area and more enemies, which is nice, but on the flipside the effect is less brutal (works vs. more things though) and you need to target with it (Glitterdust is a simple area). Generally I prefer picking up things you can't do with 2nd level slots like Haste, Dispel Magic, Stinking Cloud, Shrink Item, etc. first.

[Calthropstu]

In order to have a no vice sorceress she needs to not engage in any activity that could be considered a vice. Hope this helps!

Kidding aside, here's some real advice for playing a sorcerer.

Sorcerers are my favorite core class. They have anssers to most situations but don't need to have something for every possible thing ever to occur.

Pick a main, secondary and tertiary role. Something like "buff, summons, blast." Each spell level you have a certain number of choices at each level. The spells known max out at 5/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3 if I recall. So 1st level, spells get 2 spells of your main schtick, 2 of your second one of your third. Repeat for spell level 2 and 3, for fourth spells get 2-1-1 and 7+ get one of each.

For example, if you take blast/utility/travel your first level spells might look like magic missile, burning hands, sleep, mage armor and expeditious retreat.

[ericgrau]

In regard to sorcerer specialization, don't. It's better to have spells that don't overlap with each other. Though you can have a few spells in each wide category.

I didn't save a link to any of my old sorcerer spell lists so I did a quick google and found this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14181042&postcount=7

It's not a perfect match to what you're asking but there are some good spells on that list.

Generally battlefield control > multi-target damage > hour/level or swift/immediate buffing > multi target buffing > multi target debuffing > single target no save just suck > multi target save or suck/die > hour/level or swift/immediate utility > single target damage > utility > single target save or suck > single target buffing. Lower spell levels tend to favor buffing and utility a little more than what that ranking would indicate, while higher spell levels would put them lower. Hour/level or swift/immediate utility and buffs are especially good with lower level slots. Low level scrolls favor buffs and utility far more, especially utility. And hour/level or swift/immediate isn't as special on scrolls. Level 1-2 utility scrolls are amazing. Get 1-4 for nearly every level 1 utility spell, and eventually level 2 too.

But like I said you want to get multiple types of spells. You could do all battlefield control and do pretty well, but it would be better to make them 1st priority and also go down the list to get other types too. And even within battlefield control & etc. you don't want your spells to be too similar. Plus as you level replace your lower level spells with hour/level and swift/immediate spells. Mostly buffs, but maybe utility too. Spell compendium has a lot of wonderful swift/immediate options (not on my quickly Googled list, which is just core).

In case you're new to battlefield control, the simplest example is a wall. Area effects that stop/slow foes like solid fog also qualify. The basic concept is to divide and conquer your foes. Trap some, kill the rest, then kill the trapped ones. Fights get WAY easier.

Hope that helps.