Is a War Cleric a good fighter

[Whit]

A variant human would have 15 +2 strength and 16 +3 wisdom at level 1. An ac of 16 chain mail. Or 18 with shield Hit points of 8+1 (9)con 13.
Feat: warcaster weapon&shield or great weapon master -5 to hits+10 damage (-1) to hit after modifiers.

War priest specials:
Lvl 1 bonus action attack equal to wisdom modifier 3x a long rest
Lvl 2 channel divinity 1x per short or long rest
Turn undead or guided strike +10 to your attack after you see the roll.
Lvl 6 channel divinity is x2: war god blessing +10 to a friends attack within 30 feet after you see the roll.
Lvl 8 divine strike add +1d8 to one of yiur attacks.
Lvl 17 you get resistance to physical non magical weapons

Now not getting into the higher levels as it would take to long of a discussion.

At low levels you can heal , bless concentrate to give you and 2 others +1d4 to attack and saves. Or shield of faith concentrate +2 ac to 1 person.

spiritual weapon lvl 2 spell gives you no concentrate bonus action attack 1d8+ spell mod.

So at lvl 1-2 you can attack 1 per turn and 3x a day 2 attack’s a turn. Based on wisdom mod.

At lvl 3 you have 2 attack’s per round with spiritual weapon

Lvl 1-2 Sword shield: 1d8+2 x1 attack and up to 3 rounds of 1d8+2 1d8+2

Or if greater weapon master -1 to hit but
2d6 +12 x1 attack and up to 3 rounds of 2d6+12 2d6+12

At lvl 3. Sword shield bow gets spiritual hammer as bonus attack per round 1d8+2 plus your basic sword shield or two handed great weapon master

Am I missing something or is this good

[JNAProductions]

You're a full caster. That's your main role.

You can serve as melee pretty well at low levels, and in a pinch at high levels, but a full fighter you are not. Actual Fighters have two to three times as many attacks consistently, with more ASIs and while being more SAD.

So, levels 1-4 especially? Go for it. You're a touch squishier, but you can mix it up as well as a Fighter, honstly.

Levels 5+? You never got Extra Attack. See if you can pick up a weapon cantrip, but the Fighter's gonna outshine you.

[solidork]

Melee will usually be your go-to form of at-will damage, but you're going to fall behind dedicated martial classes in that regard. The good news is that you're still a full caster, and Spirit Guardians is amazing. I played a War Cleric from 5-13 in Princes of the Apocalypse and there were plenty of fights where I was the MVP.

I agree that picking up a melee cantrip will help keep your at will damage relevant.

[CTurbo]

War Clerics are great fighters at low levels. At higher levels, not so much. The limited bonus action attack is great when you're wielding a big 2 handed weapon and GWM, but it's not worth it for sword and board considering you already get a basically unlimited 1d8 bonus attack with Spiritual Weapon. As with all Clerics, at higher levels, you're going to rely on your spells way more often than a weapon attack.

I would start with 16 in Str and Wis and 14 in Con. Great Weapon Master, Heavy Armor Master, or Res(Con) are all 3 great feats to start with if Vhuman. Sentinel is a good feat to pick up later if you really want to be melee focused. I could see picking up War Caster a little late. I'd bump Wis to 18 and maybe even 20 before taking a second feat though.


Also if you REALLY want a melee heavy Cleric, I think Tempest does it better.

[Snowbluff]

At higher levels, not so much. The limited bonus action attack is great when you're wielding a big 2 handed weapon and GWM, but it's not worth it for sword and board considering you already get a basically unlimited 1d8 bonus attack with Spiritual Weapon. This. Every Cleric gets a decent spell they can use as a bonus action. A bonus action attack isn't so good.




Also if you REALLY want a melee heavy Cleric, I think Tempest does it better.
I like it combined with blade cantrips. Same goes for Arcane cleric, but to a lesser degree.

[Whit]

Of course not taking primary fighter role, but as a secondary combatant with the versatility of spells it’s not shabby.
At lvl 5
Depending on s&b or GWM with spirit guardian and spirit weapon the damage is
1d8+2 or 1d8+12 plus 1d8+spell mod +3 plus 3d8 or 1/2 for save. 8-45(55) damage with each round or 18(28)
Also, instead of melee you can cast a spell with spiritual weapon going.

Now at higher levels SW loses value and most damage spells do for cleric. But if a cleric had the spell damage of a mage and the healing of a cleric it would be nasty. Hmmm. I think there is one.

[CTurbo]

I forgot to mention grabbing Magic Initiate for Booming Blade if you want to play the secondary fighter role. Sit out in the thick of things with Spirit Guardians up, hit them with Booming Blade, and let them decide if they would rather sit in your Spirit Guardians some more, or move and take damage.

I'd still take a look at Tempest instead. You still get heavy armor, you get to cause reaction damage which is great, and you get to maximize thunder or lightning damage once or twice per short rest while still having access to all the same healing spells and other goodies.

[Whit]

Hmm is tempest better than war?

I’m sure paladin outclasses cleric for melee and has decent heals, but the cleric brings the extra to the table.

[DivisibleByZero]

Also if you REALLY want a melee heavy Cleric, I think Tempest does it better.

I think Arcana does it better, with a one level Monk dip.
You can focus on Dex and Wis, have respectable AC, use Martial Arts for Dex staves, get SCAG-trips (with both Dex and Wis to damage) to supplement Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians (and not have to spend a feat to get them).
If magic isn't appropriate for whatever reason, you still have two attacks.

Respectable AC
Xd8+D+W action, plus rider (or any other spell you want/need)
Potential 1d8+W bonus
Potential 3d8 AoE
If you're doing that all, it's at 8d8+15 ~51
No feats needed. Not bad for a Cleric.

[CTurbo]

Hmm is tempest better than war?

I’m sure paladin outclasses cleric for melee and has decent heals, but the cleric brings the extra to the table.

Look what all Tempest gets you. Have you ever checked it out? I think it's the best Cleric domain. I have also played a melee heavy Tempest Cleric and it was a blast to play. I even bumped Str to 18 at level 4 and it was one of the funnest characters I have ever played. The ability to maximize thunder and Lightning damage will flat out shut down encounters sometimes before they even start.

[Snowbluff]

I second using the blade cantrips (again), but a sorc dip isn't bad for that if you can afford the cha, as it can give you Shield, Find Familiar, Absorb Elements, some other cantrips (like minor illusion), and a bonus action move (Storm) or an evasion (shadow).

You only get 1 attack, so might as well make the most of it. :p

Hmm is tempest better than war?


Certainly. War cleric doesn't really give anything other than extra armor and weapons, as clerics ALL can just cast spiritual weapon as a bonus action.

Also, Tempest gets a reaction ability, which Clerics don't normally have access too.

[Potato_Priest]

Hmm is tempest better than war?

I’m sure paladin outclasses cleric for melee and has decent heals, but the cleric brings the extra to the table.

I personally am a die-hard advocate of GWM war cleric as the melee cleric King, having played one myself. The war cleric's channel divinity gives you some impressive burst damage power, since it can turn a hefty GWM swing into a miss. Not having to prepare spiritual weapon and spirit guardians is also a big help.

Tempest clerics, on the other hand, get some seriously sweet options to buff their spellcasting like their channel divinity, (and may well be the more optimized choice overall) but don't get quite as much for melee combat specifically.

[Pex]

Levels 5+? You never got Extra Attack. See if you can pick up a weapon cantrip, but the Fighter's gonna outshine you.

Spiritual Weapon is a cleric's "Extra Attack" and get it at level 3. However, a Fighter is better at fighting as he's supposed to be. The War Cleric is decent enough as a secondary though.

[NathanialG]

Nature Cleric, with Shillelagh is a great option for a SAD melee cleric, then you only need booming blade from Magic initiate. It also lets you choose the flavor of you bonus damage from any element and if you go dwarf you HPs are almost as high as a fighter and you dont need the str investment to wear plate.

[HolyAvenger7]

What, no love for the Forge Cleric?

[Potato_Priest]

What, no love for the Forge Cleric?

Forge clerics get a lot of tanking abilities, but are really very low on offensive options in melee. Their lack of martial weapons makes using GWM with them less than ideal, and they don’t have the SAD of the nature cleric.

[DarkKnightJin]

As has been discussed: Fighter or Paladin makes for a better Martial character.

But the Cleric, with its d8 hit die, medium armor at the least, and full casting.. can make for a pretty dang nice secondary melee tank.
Magic Initiate or Spell Sniper (with DM fiat) to snag you up Booming Blade to 'scale' your single melee attack is helpful. Of course, you could just rely on Sacred Flame or Toll the Dead for some scaling damage. But those 2 put the 'control' with the DM instead of your own luck with the dice.

I'm planning to get MI (Wizard) for Booming Blade amd Prestidigitation, along with Find Familiar on my Dragonborn Death Cleric. But that is mostly for flavor reasons.

[visitor]

It has been said, in this thread and others, that at higher levels clerics will rely more on their spellcasting as full casters than their melee attacks in combat.

Not long ago there was another thread about how the cleric spell list (especially higher levels) was not as good as the wizard spell list. I agreed that personally, the cleric spell list is not as interesting or exciting. (I understand that especially for the cleric class, there is more to spellcasting than just the spell list. That thread went off in the direction of defending the class vs. the spell list)

So I'm interested: What are your cleric's go-to spells at that level, when cleric melee is definitely overshadowed by martials? Are you upcasting the same bless, spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians? Relying on domain spells? Becoming more support oriented? What have you found your typical role to be in combat?

[bid]

So I'm interested: What are your cleric's go-to spells at that level, when cleric melee is definitely overshadowed by martials? Are you upcasting the same bless, spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians? Relying on domain spells? Becoming more support oriented? What have you found your typical role to be in combat?
You know, that's a perfectly good question but it has nothing to do with this thread.

[Snowbluff]

I'm planning to get MI (Wizard) for Booming Blade amd Prestidigitation, along with Find Familiar on my Dragonborn Death Cleric. But that is mostly for flavor reasons.
Wizard also gets the reaction spells Shield and Absorb Elements. I would strong suggest these, as clerics don't get good reactions.

[bid]

Wizard also gets the reaction spells Shield and Absorb Elements. I would strong suggest these, as clerics don't get good reactions.
I don't think getting shield once per day will do anything useful. At least compared to find familiar.

[visitor]

You know, that's a perfectly good question but it has nothing to do with this thread.

Well, the question was "Is the War Cleric a good fighter?". The answers have been: yes, at low levels, then clerics rely on their spellcasting. I am just asking for more detail of peoples experiences.

[Snowbluff]

I don't think getting shield once per day will do anything useful. At least compared to find familiar.

Oh he said MI not mc. Yeah, that's not nearly as good.

[bid]

Well, the question was "Is the War Cleric a good fighter?". The answers have been: yes, at low levels, then clerics rely on their spellcasting. I am just asking for more detail of peoples experiences.
Sorry, I thought this was too good a question to hide in another thread.

But if you see it as "how can a war cleric do as good as a fighter around levels 8-12?", then yeah it's a good fit.

[Saggo]

So I'm interested: What are your cleric's go-to spells at that level, when cleric melee is definitely overshadowed by martials? Are you upcasting the same bless, spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians? Relying on domain spells? Becoming more support oriented? What have you found your typical role to be in combat?
It's useful to make a distinction between martials built for DPR and martials built for Sword & Board. Martials focusing on damage will definitely overshadow you, but a properly built Cleric can remain on par with other Sword & Board builds.

[DarkKnightJin]

Oh he said MI not mc. Yeah, that's not nearly as good.

I -might- take another 2 levels of Fighter somewhere down the line, and pick up Eldritch Knight as the Archetype. That would get me 2 more cantrips, and 3 spells known. With Shield and Absorb Elements absolutely being the 2 Abj/Evo spells I'd pick.
That would leave me with a single free pick of a Wizard first level spell. Any suggestion beyond Find Familiar, since I would have that from Magic Initiate?

OP: Sorry for derailing the thread a bit.

[HolyAvenger7]

Forge clerics get a lot of tanking abilities, but are really very low on offensive options in melee. Their lack of martial weapons makes using GWM with them less than ideal, and they don’t have the SAD of the nature cleric.

I just picked a Hill Dwarf and problem solved. The blessing and other buffs made it fun. To each their own I suppose.

[Galadhrim]

Well, the question was "Is the War Cleric a good fighter?". The answers have been: yes, at low levels, then clerics rely on their spellcasting. I am just asking for more detail of peoples experiences.

I played a martial tempest cleric with a sword and board set up through level 10. The problem you run in to is that many turns you have something better to do with your action or bonus action than a attack so sometimes you don't "feel like a martial". As long as you're ok with that, then you can be competitive damage wise on your free turns. I certainly still enjoyed cracking skulls when the opportunity presented itself, it just wasn't every turn. I enjoyed that aspect (having to decide from several options what to do), as it made play much more interesting, but not everyone would.

[visitor]

I played a martial tempest cleric with a sword and board set up through level 10. The problem you run in to is that many turns you have something better to do with your action or bonus action than a attack so sometimes you don't "feel like a martial". As long as you're ok with that, then you can be competitive damage wise on your free turns. I certainly still enjoyed cracking skulls when the opportunity presented itself, it just wasn't every turn. I enjoyed that aspect (having to decide from several options what to do), as it made play much more interesting, but not everyone would.

No, that's great. Personally, I wasn't looking to have purely melee cleric, I was just bothered that melee was a 'waste' of a cleric's round (specifically for War and Tempest) Having the "problem" of too many things to do is a great position to be in.

[Snowbluff]

I -might- take another 2 levels of Fighter somewhere down the line, and pick up Eldritch Knight as the Archetype. That would get me 2 more cantrips, and 3 spells known. With Shield and Absorb Elements absolutely being the 2 Abj/Evo spells I'd pick.
That would leave me with a single free pick of a Wizard first level spell. Any suggestion beyond Find Familiar, since I would have that from Magic Initiate?

OP: Sorry for derailing the thread a bit.

It's not a bad option. It's basically like taking a level in Wizard, in a way.
Anyway, I'd say you spotted the best three spells off the bat. Other than that, I'd say Silent Image (Minor Illusion is probably better) or Longstrider.