Help me Pick a two 4th Lvl Spells for 7th Lvl Wizard

[Vorpal Crowbar]

I play a 7th lvl wizard Necromancer. Other than my cantrips, I don't use any direct damage spells. I only like open ended, creative, and control spells. I would appreciate your help to pick two spells for my 7th level wizard.

Choices:


Banishment - 1 min work day, send extra-planar baddy away.
Charm Monster - Make a quick alliance with something cool.
Polymorph - PC -> Mammoth (bit fun for the other party members) or Baddy -> slug.
Summon Greater Demon - I have a Rod of Rulership, so might get a Babau Buddy for an hour.
Fabricate - make stuff into better stuff.
Dimensional Door - barely makes it on my short list, could be useful though.


What do you guys find are the "best", most fun, most useful. Maybe give some situations which made it stand out as the best choice. Or which spells turned out to be a dud in your experience.

(Btw: I know someone will end up suggesting it, so let me say: I've read all of Treantmonk's Guides - very thorough, good food for thought. No offense, but to me, he doesn't appreciate the potential in the more open ended creative spells like shape water or mold earth; so his guide seems more tailored for a blaster/melee wizard - not my style. So I'm looking for a little bit different type of opinions.)


Thanks You in Advance for anyone who posts,

VC

[LuccMa]

As a DM, my experience with Wizard Spells comes from a player who is currently a lvl 12 Diviner.

Over the campaign, he frequently used banishment, polymorph and dimension door.

Banishment: One of the most powerful spells i saw in the campaign. If you stay safe this comes often very close to a "save or die" spell for the whole encounter, especially if the opponent isnt from this plane (which happens quite often in higher lvls). Since its a Cha Save not that many monsters are good against it. Now this spell has the chance to totally screw the DM over in a good way. Big Bad walks up with his buddies, gives a speech and the Wizard just goes "Nope."
This spell caused memorable and funny scenes in my game!

Situation: At one point this spell One-Shot the would-be boss of a dungeon in a very comedic way and has been prepared ever since.

Polymorph: I rarely saw this being cast upon opponents in fights, only for fun (which is not a bad thing). Most of the time our barbarian became a giant ape and started smashing things. I as a DM dont have a problem with it, some might, so talk to yours about that. But it is a nice spell which opens a lot of opportunities outside of combat by polymorphing your companions into different beasts.

Situation:
1: Raging Dwarf becomes Raging Giant Ape. Nimble Rogue becomes... normal Giant Ape. Together they grapple that f-ing Dragon and repeatedly slam it into its own tower.
2: "Okay guys, ill polymorph you. Ready?" - Other Members think the apes are coming. Nope. Squirrels, but they chose to fail their save. Fun times.

Dimension Door: This spell deserves a spell on your list and you should pick it up at some point. It saved my group a bunch of times. Its range is huge, you dont actually have to SEE where you are going and it opens so many options for infiltrating, escaping, closing gaps and what-not.

Situation: No funny situations come to mind but if you want to get from A to B fast, this is always the spell for it.

I think you should pick up all three of them asap because all of them are 1) strong and 2) open up new possibilities.

[Asmotherion]

Do you have Magic Circle yet? It's important for the Chain to eventually bind your demon through Planar Binding, when you Get 5th level spells (and Upcast them, 'cause the cost is kinda huge).

If you're aiming for the Chain, get either the Demon or Devil summoning spell, according to your preferance of Demons or Devils. Demons may be for Free but Devils are at least up for a bargain if something goes wrong (and this is kinda why it's wiser to invest the expensive component, unless your DM is going to play it as "all fiends act the same" because he doesn't know.

Then, an other one from your selections, Dimension Door is always Relevant. Even when you do eventually get Teleport, a Mid Range teleport is always good to have. If your Misty Step (and Xanathar's more combat Aplicative variants) are your combat, short range teleports, that are your In-Outs for combat, this is a good Panic button for when you want to escape combat, go away from a trap, or generally get far away from were you are right now. Teleport is more of a Travel Spell, wile this is a "I don't want to be here right now" spell. Misty Step is "Think you can catch me? Nope". They can obviously be used for the reverse purpose, but from your post, I understand you don't generally want to be in melee combat (at least with this PC).

Privet Sanctum can be priceless. It's more than just "we camp without fear in the middle of the forest". It can occasionally mean a free long rest in the middle of a Dungeon populated by unfriendly creatures who passivelly are looking to find you (or even Activelly, if you and your party are invisivle at the time).

Resilient Sphere and Faithful Hound can be a funny combination, if you care to try it out. It's not so much outside the box thinking as much as inside of the sphere. Nope? ok.

Hallucinatory Terrain: Wile it's not quite Mirage Arcana yet, it's enough to take advantage of the dungeon you and your party see through, wile the ones chasing you will be seeing an oppen grassy field bathed in sunlight, and fall on all kinds of walls.

[Joe dirt]

personally i would go

polymorph... it is very versatile and allows for combat situations and maneuverability because u can change into things that fly and breath under water. the downside is it is concentration, so in combat its better to polymorph say the party rogue or fighter then u go hide and concentrate on the spell while they smash. otherwise the risk is u cast polymorph on urself, u get hit with damage and u loose that concentration.... never a good thing

and fabricate... assuming u have the skilled feat, (for skills like smithing, wood working, stone cutting) which i would take when u hit 8th level. this spell has made my character money, and money, my friend is what u need for other spells such as planar binding. plus as an added feature of this spell u can make traps on the fly, lets say ur party decides to sleep and u are in dangerous territory.... u go over to the cave wall and fabricate a trap where part of the ceiling will fall on a creature if it pushes on ur pressure plate. now the reason this works is because u have the skills combined with fabricate spell. otherwise the spell is almost useless because u cant make anything high quality.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

Over the campaign, he frequently used banishment, polymorph and dimension door.

I think you should pick up all three of them asap because all of them are 1) strong and 2) open up new possibilities.


Very good points, thanks for the feedback - Polymorph was my jam back in 3.0/3.5, but its lost most of its punch in 5th ed. But I will take it - and I think banishment too. 8th lvl - maybe get D-Door.

thanks again

VC

[Vorpal Crowbar]

Do you have Magic Circle yet? It's important for the Chain to eventually bind your demon through Planar Binding, when you Get 5th level spells (and Upcast them, 'cause the cost is kinda huge).

If you're aiming for the Chain, get either the Demon or Devil summoning spell, according to your preferance of Demons or Devils. Demons may be for Free but Devils are at least up for a bargain if something goes wrong (and this is kinda why it's wiser to invest the expensive component, unless your DM is going to play it as "all fiends act the same" because he doesn't know.

Then, an other one from your selections, Dimension Door is always Relevant.




Probably will get D-Door at 8th lvl that's 2 votes for it.

When you say go for "the chain", do you mean: summon Demon/Infernal Calling, magic circle, and Planar Binding cast as a 6th lvl+ spell? Is that correct?


VC

[Vorpal Crowbar]

personally i would go

polymorph... it is very versatile and allows for combat situations and maneuverability because u can change into things that fly and breath under water. the downside is it is concentration, so in combat its better to polymorph say the party rogue or fighter then u go hide and concentrate on the spell while they smash. otherwise the risk is u cast polymorph on urself, u get hit with damage and u loose that concentration.... never a good thing

and fabricate... assuming u have the skilled feat, (for skills like smithing, wood working, stone cutting) which i would take when u hit 8th level. this spell has made my character money, and money, my friend is what u need for other spells such as planar binding. plus as an added feature of this spell u can make traps on the fly, lets say ur party decides to sleep and u are in dangerous territory.... u go over to the cave wall and fabricate a trap where part of the ceiling will fall on a creature if it pushes on ur pressure plate. now the reason this works is because u have the skills combined with fabricate spell. otherwise the spell is almost useless because u cant make anything high quality.


I think I'm sold on polymorph.

I love the flexibility of fabricate but it might have to wait til 8th lvl - Please tell me more about how you made money with fabricate? maybe I'll take it at seventh then.

Thanks again,

VC

[Joe dirt]

I think I'm sold on polymorph.

I love the flexibility of fabricate but it might have to wait til 8th lvl - Please tell me more about how you made money with fabricate? maybe I'll take it at seventh then.

Thanks again,

VC

With fabricate as I mentioned u need a tool skill before it becomes awesome as an income source... (in fact I made a character based on his skills and the use of this one spell. He could make poisons, armor, traps, wood things, glass things, leather, alchemy items, ect... but that's a tale for another time....)
here how it works
1. U start with a raw resource say some wild forest...
2. U need to have the appropriate skill say wood carving tool skill
3. U cast fabricate and Presto u now have 10 cubic feet of say Longbows ..
4. U take ur longbows into town and sell them for a tidy profit and no material cost
5. Repeat steps 1-4 whenever and where ever u have downtime at 7th level u can cast the spell 2 times a day due to arcane recovery wizard feature.... that a LOT of manufacturing!!!
That's basically how u make money off this spell

[MrStabby]

I would say banishment and dimension door.

Banishment is a great spell as you already know, it will also pick up some juice over the coming levels as it is superb when upcast as well. The only downside is that you will also probably want wall of force later and the two spells kind of partially fill a similar role.

Dimension door might not be the best spell on your list but I suggest this as the compliment to banishment. They tend to solve very different types of problem. I am thinking that the question is not "which two of the spells on the list are best/most flexible/most fun?" but rather "which pair of spells together makes for the most power/flexibility/fun?"

[Asmotherion]

Probably will get D-Door at 8th lvl that's 2 votes for it.

When you say go for "the chain", do you mean: summon Demon/Infernal Calling, magic circle, and Planar Binding cast as a 6th lvl+ spell? Is that correct?


VC

That's right. This way you get a potentially powerfull summon that will also not be using up your Con slot. The only limiting aspect is the money you can spent on the spell (planar binding is expensive), that's why it's more optimal to use with a higher spell slot. That said, when you'll be able to replicate through Wish, it's one of the best ways to use to amass a Fiendish Army, and before that, depending on the survivability of your summon as well as your average loot rate (including rest variant used by the DM that may affect how fast the campain progresses), 10 days (6th level version) starts to be able to make up for the cost, provided you'll be able to keep your summon ally for at least half that duration.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

With fabricate as I mentioned u need a tool skill before it becomes awesome as an income source... (in fact I made a character based on his skills and the use of this one spell. He could make poisons, armor, traps, wood things, glass things, leather, alchemy items, ect... but that's a tale for another time....)
here how it works
1. U start with a raw resource say some wild forest...
2. U need to have the appropriate skill say wood carving tool skill
3. U cast fabricate and Presto u now have 10 cubic feet of say Longbows ..
4. U take ur longbows into town and sell them for a tidy profit and no material cost
5. Repeat steps 1-4 whenever and where ever u have downtime at 7th level u can cast the spell 2 times a day due to arcane recovery wizard feature.... that a LOT of manufacturing!!!
That's basically how u make money off this spell

Thanks for the help Guys! So, I took Polymorph and Fabricate.


We Crushed to death an Extraplanar Tentacle-monster T-Rex with our Paladin

How:


I polymorphed our Paladin into a Brontosaurus -
Then the other wizard used enlarge to make him into a 400,000 lb. Colossal Brontosaurus.
Then the Paladin did a Belly-Flop


Awesome!

2nd thing, on Fabricate - What if I:


I cast Fabricate on a few trees:
Which makes eight five foot cubes of paper
Approximately 6,000,000 sheets of paper (or equivalent as a continuous folded roll)
Valued at 2 silver a piece
Which converts to 1,152,000 gold


Enough to buy two palaces and three small castles, Per Cast!


Thoughts?
VC

[Joe dirt]

Thanks for the help Guys! So, I took Polymorph and Fabricate.


We Crushed to death an Extraplanar Tentacle-monster T-Rex with our Paladin

How:


I polymorphed our Paladin into a Brontosaurus -
Then the other wizard used enlarge to make him into a 400,000 lb. Colossal Brontosaurus.
Then the Paladin did a Belly-Flop


Awesome!

2nd thing, on Fabricate - What if I:


I cast Fabricate on a few trees:
Which makes eight five foot cubes of paper
Approximately 6,000,000 sheets of paper (or equivalent as a continuous folded roll)
Valued at 2 silver a piece
Which converts to 1,152,000 gold


Enough to buy two palaces and three small castles, Per Cast!


Thoughts?
VC

well, i would be careful not to "break" the game economy. in my game i made a deal with the GM where i could at most make 500gp per casting. which btw is still a lot of money if u think about it, 2 castings a day will pay for a future planar binding spell and i could do this every time i had downtime. it made for fun roll playing as i worked for a thieves guild as their main source for drugs

while technically u can do this RAW but basically, i would not piss off the GM. u need to have a side conversation so not to ruin their game but is fair at the same time.

[clem]

Have you considered Arcane Eye? Wonderful for scouting out a dungeon.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

Have you considered Arcane Eye? Wonderful for scouting out a dungeon.
No, not really, b/c I have a deal with a demon Quasit - making him my Familiar. He scouts invisibly a mile away and uses telepathy to tell me everything.

Not to mention I frequently and purposely don't uses him, because sometimes we have a rogue show up, a I don't want to steal their thunder :)

Thank you for the suggestion though!

VC

[Vorpal Crowbar]

well, i would be careful not to "break" the game economy. in my game i made a deal with the GM where i could at most make 500gp per casting. which btw is still a lot of money if u think about it, 2 castings a day will pay for a future planar binding spell and i could do this every time i had downtime. it made for fun roll playing as i worked for a thieves guild as their main source for drugs

while technically u can do this RAW but basically, i would not piss off the GM. u need to have a side conversation so not to ruin their game but is fair at the same time.

You are right - I talked to the DM - Basically I will us it between game session as a plot device - The PCs are leaders of a city-state that had recently been near destroyed by a terrorist attack. The spell Fabricate will be a coinage generator we will use to get the city rebuilt.


Btw: You really got me thinking about how to use fabricate, so I did some more calculations - here is a few other items that can be churned out - per cast.

Items_________________Amount_________Value
Ball Bearings____________56,250,000 BB_____56,250 gold
Whetstones____________19,509 stones_____195 gold
10 ft Poles_____________6,320 poles_______316 gold
Salt, from sea-water_____50,000 lbs________2,500 gold
Rope (hemp) 1.5" thick___256,000 ft________120 gold
Rope (silk) 0.5" thick_____576,000 ft________115,200 gold

Cheers!

VC

[djreynolds]

Greater invisibility-- for your friends
Phantasmal killer-- wisdom save
Wall of Fire--- helpful
Fire shield--- 10 minutes and no concentration

[Vorpalchicken]

Remember to manufacture things that require a high degree of craftsmanship with Fabricate, like weapons, you need the appropriate tool proficiency.

"I paid fifty gold for this longbow but it snapped in two the moment it was strung. It's almost as though the maker had no experience as a bowyer at all. With no way to hunt and no money our family will surely starve. I was a fool to buy a longbow from someone with a pet quasit."

[StorytellerHero]

On the off chance that your DM allows third party in the campaign and you want to expand your repertoire even more as a necromancer, I wrote a book of necromancy spells for DMsGuild. There are spells of all levels from 0 (cantrip) to 9 in the book.

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232249/THE-GRIM-Spells-of-Necromancy-5e

[Vorpal Crowbar]

Remember to manufacture things that require a high degree of craftsmanship with Fabricate, like weapons, you need the appropriate tool proficiency.

"I paid fifty gold for this longbow but it snapped in two the moment it was strung. It's almost as though the maker had no experience as a bowyer at all. With no way to hunt and no money our family will surely starve. I was a fool to buy a longbow from someone with a pet quasit."

Ha, true, true. I have a background with proficiency in artisan tools for: Blacksmithing and Glass Blowing.

So I can make a 5 ft cube of:

858 Maces = 4,290 gold
1,204 Longswords = 18,060 gold
18,000 Daggers = 36,000 gold
15,000 Glass Vials = 15,000 gold
3200 Spyglasses = 3,200,000 gold.

:smallbiggrin:
VC

[Vorpal Crowbar]

On the off chance that your DM allows third party in the campaign and you want to expand your repertoire even more as a necromancer, I wrote a book of necromancy spells for DMsGuild. There are spells of all levels from 0 (cantrip) to 9 in the book.

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/232249/THE-GRIM-Spells-of-Necromancy-5e

I would, but my DMs' have their hands full with everything I can come up with, just using the source material. Thank you though,

VC

[History_buff]

Dimension Door is the perfect spell for NOPING out of hairy situations. It’s also a great spell for infiltration and getting somewhere you need to be fast.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

Dimension Door is the perfect spell for NOPING out of hairy situations. It’s also a great spell for infiltration and getting somewhere you need to be fast.

Indeed, I had decided to pick it up at lvl 8. But the other Lvl 7 wizard has it already, but he does not have feather fall; which I do. So we made a pack: that if things get bad, I'll get near by, then he will DD; And if we end up teleporting into mid-air, I will use FF on us :)

VC

[Strangways]

I like Dimension Door, then try to save a level 4 slot for a "get out of jail free" card if something goes disastrously wrong and it looks like your party is going to wipe. The spell lets you take someone with you, so grab the cleric before you head out so you can bring him back later to resurrect your dead colleagues.

The other option I'd consider is Sickening Radiance, especially if you have other party members who can hold enemies inside its area of effect (e.g. grapplers, spell casters with Hold Person etc.).