Best Wizard and Cleric Subclasses (Level 1 to 10)

[FoxDropz]

Hey guys,

Tell which Subclasses do you think are the best to roll as a Wizard and as a Cleric.
Explain me why did you pick them.

Consider a campaign from level 1 to 10.

Thanks!

EDIT: consider the following conditions: Only PHB. RAW. No Multiclass, only monoclass. From level 1 to 10.

[Snivlem]

There is no real answer unless you tell us more of what you want to do with the classes

[Greywander]

From what I know about wizards, Illusionist and Diviner both seem to be pretty solid. Illusionist doesn't really come online until you get Illusory Reality at 14th level, though. Portent is really good, and comes online as early as 2nd level. You're sort of dependent on your Portent rolls in what you can use them for, but if you get a really low roll you can force an enemy to autofail a critical saving throw, which can dramatically shift the flow of a fight. High rolls are probably less useful, but sometimes its nice to say, "You know what? I succeed. I just succeed. No roll needed."

Really, though, any of the wizard schools are good, it just depends on what you're aiming for. Diviner makes a good neutral option because the main thing it brings to the table (Portent) can be used with almost any playstyle. You might take a look at Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?450158-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizards-5e) to get his take on the god-wizard (i.e. the battlefield controller, as opposed to the pure blaster). If nothing else, it can help condense the information down into a smaller space so that it's easier to compare and contrast than flipping through the PHB + SCAG + EE + XGtE.

For a 1 to 10 campaign, though, Diviner would be my top pick. I don't think it makes too much of a difference, though, so you should be able to play what you like without suffering much.

I don't know as much about clerics, but I've always been partial to the Knowledge domain, and most of my wizard builds either start as a 1st level Knowledge cleric or plan to dip one level into it later on. I guess I just like playing utility characters.

[Asmotherion]

For my personal taste, Abjurer is the best Wizard. You can keep yourself and your party safe, and at the same time be as effective as any other Wizard ever was. I would argue he's even better at tanking that actual tanks, if optimised to do so.

Fluff wise, Conjurer is just the most fun to play as. You can create anything you imagin, as long as it fits in a 3 foot cube, is non magical and weights no more than 10 pounds. This can be literally anything you can imagin. If you're good with Physics, Chemistry, or Herbology, you can imagin at least a thing or two you want to conjure and make explode, implode, have someone consume etc, etc. It's basically a free spell/cantrip, only limited by your knowlage, imagination, and DM's willingness to allow Science and Magic to interact with each other in his World. It's usefullness can vary from "as useful as Prestidigitation" wich is not half bad, to "5e's version of Limited Wish" If both you and your DM have an interest in Science.

Necromancer has a lot of potential, if build on a proper basis. That said, a lot of parties don't let Necromancers join them, or end up joining the Necromancer's Party Post Mortum. Ever Read/Played Corpse Party? That's why you have to remember to control your undead. Fun times.

For Clerics, Life Domain is very cool and I think there is a combo with Goodbery (wich you can get with Magic Initiate) for a lot of healing.

The Knowlage Cleric is mostly used as a Dip for Rogue/Bard Builds (Skill Monkey Builds). But it's respectable.

I like the Arcana Cleric. Has nice features.

The one that seems a bit over the edge to me is the Forge Domain Cleric. You basically create your Own +Equipment. It's a class feature, so noone can complain. Dip a level Wizard for the Shield Spell, and you'll eventually be tanking for something like 30+AC.

[A Fat Dragon]

If it’s non-UA, Theurgy Wizard (Tempest Domain) has some nasty capabilities. Though, if you’re looking for two separate classes, I like War Magic and Forge Domain. War Magic for its solid combat capabilities, and Forge Domain for its channel Divinity and its ability to give stuff +1. And, if you do plan on playing up to 17th level, and manage to find Martial Weapons proficiencies, you can be a rockin’, sockin’, robot clockin’ machine.

Though, if you are doing Multiclass, and UA, straight up Theurgy Wizard with either Death Domain, or Tempest Domain is a dangerous combination.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Ok well before we go further into discusssion can we set some established goals to finding the OPs answer? Best at what? All the subclasses are good. But what are they all best AT from 1-10.

[Zanthy1]

I'm a big fan of the Bladesinger from SCAG, though unless your DM waves the elf requirement you don't get to pick something else (though elves make great wizards).

As for cleric..I love life and forge clerics a lot

[FoxDropz]

There is no real answer unless you tell us more of what you want to do with the classes


Ok well before we go further into discusssion can we set some established goals to finding the OPs answer? Best at what? All the subclasses are good. But what are they all best AT from 1-10.

Well, we could stablish more points:
Level 1 to 10. Only PHB. RAW. No Multiclass, only monoclass. Analyzing in and out of combat usefulness, their ability to solve the campaign problems with their Class Spells/Features. Stuff that is gamechanger and help the yourself and/or the group.

As for Greywander, Fat dragon, Asmotherion and Zanthy1, thanks a lot for the info!

EDIT: But overall, I really liked Tempest Cleric and Divination Wizard. They both seem fun and strong. Are they both like "beginer-caster-friendly" subclasses? Cause I've only played like Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian characters.. Its my first time playing a full caster

[Greywander]

Only PHB. RAW.
For subclasses, or is this for spells, too? The availability of certain spells might influence your build or playstyle. For example, a Tempest cleric might want to look into picking up Booming Blade, which is a SCAG-only spell.


No Multiclass, only monoclass.
Okay. Nothing wrong with a straight wizard, but do be aware that wizards have a lot to gain from a single level dip in cleric. I can't speak for clerics, but I don't think they get quite as much out of multiclassing unless you have something specific in mind.


Analyzing in and out of combat usefulness, their ability to solve the campaign problems with their Class Spells/Features. Stuff that is gamechanger and help the yourself and/or the group.
Definitely check out that wizard guide I posted earlier, it doesn't assess out-of-combat usefulness that much, but it does approach combat with the idea of a controller instead of a blaster. Eliminating half of the enemies from a fight for a few rounds with, say, a Wall of Force is going to be much more helpful than simply throwing another fireball. That said, fireballs can solve a lot of smaller problems, especially if those problems are standing within a 20-foot radius.


Are they both like "beginer-caster-friendly" subclasses?
Honestly, if you want a "noob friendly" wizard subclass, Evoker might be the way to go. It focuses in on one specific school of magic so that you don't need to feel overwhelmed by all the different spells available to you, and Sculpt Spells lets you throw fireballs without worrying about hitting party members by accident. Personally, this isn't my cup of tea, and I believe that an experienced player playing an evoker will be a wizard first and evoker second. If you want to blast, you're better off going sorcerer instead, but sorcerer is less forgiving in your character building (particularly when choosing spells).

In my mind, the strength of a wizard over other full casters is their versatility, which is really hard to learn how to play effectively.

Diviner, as I've already mentioned, is a great subclass for when you don't know which subclass you want. Portent works well with any playstyle, contrast with the Evoker's features that skew the wizard toward damage spells. If you want more utility, I'd also recommend taking a look at Conjurer, Illusionist, and Transmuter. Some of these features may not seem like much, but creativity is an important part of getting the most out of a wizard. When reading a class feature or spell description, you shouldn't be asking yourself, "When would I ever use this?", but rather, "How can I use this?"
Take, for instance, Minor Conjuration, which the Conjurer gets at 2nd level. I basically lets you create any inanimate non-magical object that is less than 3 feet long and weighs 10 lbs or less. At-will. To some, it might not seem like much, until you start asking yourself, "How can I ruin the DM's day today using this one ability?" (Don't actually ruin the DM's day, but you get the picture.) Summon a weapon any time you want. Sell the "visibly magical" weapon and skip town before the effect expires. Create a small wall made of adamantium (provided you've "seen" adamantium before), use it to barricade a door. Going underwater? Make a diving bell or diving helmet. Summon flasks of acid and throw them at people. In the desert? Summon food and drink, for your whole party. Summon arrows for your bow. Summon healer's kits when treating injuries. Summon manacles when you need someone restrained. Summon a bag of caltrops or marbles, or a flask of oil, and drop them behind you while you run away. Summon some obviously magically glowing bait for the wandering patrol while you slip by behind them.

Not all of these uses might be allowed by your DM (summoning food and drink, for example, or flasks of acid, as eating/drinking/throwing them might trigger the "until it takes damage" clause), but if you get creative you can use seemingly useless spells and abilities to great effect. And the many uses and abuses of Minor Conjuration is just an allegory for the entirety of the wizard class. See also the cantrips Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Shape Water, and Mold Earth, and think about how those could be used and abused.


Cause I've only played like Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian characters.. Its my first time playing a full caster
Now all that said, and I do love wizards, but if this is your first time playing a full caster then cleric might be a better choice, for a few reasons. First of all is that clerics get full access to all of their spells. Wizards are much better than sorcerers in this regard, but still require you to track down scrolls and spellbooks to fill out your own spellbook, while clerics get the full list right from the get-go.

Second, clerics get medium armor and shields, making them much more durable than wizards. They'll feel more like the martial classes you've already played than a wizard will.

Thirdly, clerics have a smaller spell list and are more focused and less versatile than wizards. Clerics simply have fewer options available to them, so it will take less time to figure out which ones work the best for what you want to do at a given moment. Clerics are also really good at what they do, and most of what they do is stuff that wizards can't do. Always have Healing Word prepared, and shoot it off as a bonus action if someone is making death saving throws. Bless is a really good spell, too. Hand out Guidance like it's candy. Have Revivify ready for when things go south. I'm definitely not a cleric expert, though, so maybe listen to some more experienced cleric players.

At the end of the day, I think you'll do fine if you play whatever sounds the coolest to you. The biggest difference will be the choice between wizard and cleric, but you'll hopefully have fun and settle into the class before too long either way. Subclasses offer additional features, but both wizard and cleric offer the bulk of their abilities from their base class, so you should be fine regardless of subclass. Just have fun trying something new, I say, and don't sweat the details.

[MrStabby]

Wizard I would say the top ones are: divination, abjuration, enchantment.

Clerics are a lot more complex to rank. Interaction of proficiencies, domain spells and so on makes it a bit context specific.

I would put tempest top. It can tank, blast and be a cleric.

Then life or nature. Both tough and both with fantastic domain abilities.

Light can be pretty good - fireball mainly!

Even the much derided trickery cleric has a lot going for it with a great domain list. The extra d8 damage being poison isn't great as a type due to common immunity but much of that is from undead, and you can turn those.

[FoxDropz]

For subclasses, or is this for spells, too? The availability of certain spells might influence your build or playstyle. For example, a Tempest cleric might want to look into picking up Booming Blade, which is a SCAG-only spell.

Now all that said, and I do love wizards, but if this is your first time playing a full caster then cleric might be a better choice, for a few reasons.

At the end of the day, I think you'll do fine if you play whatever sounds the coolest to you. The biggest difference will be the choice between wizard and cleric, but you'll hopefully have fun and settle into the class before too long either way. Subclasses offer additional features, but both wizard and cleric offer the bulk of their abilities from their base class, so you should be fine regardless of subclass. Just have fun trying something new, I say, and don't sweat the details.

Well, my DM said PHB only. BUT, there were 2 exceptions so far. One of the players asked for Revised Ranger and the Rogue asked to be a Goblin, the DM accepted both. So there is a possibility that I could ask him about SCAG Spells or another thing from other books that are important too my build, but he will not allow a lot of things.
Oh I forgot to say, my party will be me, a monk, a rogue, a revised ranger and X (another player that havent choose his class yet).

Thanks a lot for the great piece of info you provided, I really feeling more Cleric right now. Like you said, its more simillar to what I've played as a melee character.. I can ease into the whole Caster role and see if I really like it. And then if I do, I'll definetly play a Wizard in another campaign. I think I'll definitly have fun playing Cleric, seing how you described it.


Wizard I would say the top ones are: divination, abjuration, enchantment.

Clerics are a lot more complex to rank. Interaction of proficiencies, domain spells and so on makes it a bit context specific.

I would put tempest top. It can tank, blast and be a cleric.

Then life or nature. Both tough and both with fantastic domain abilities.

Light can be pretty good - fireball mainly!

Even the much derided trickery cleric has a lot going for it with a great domain list. The extra d8 damage being poison isn't great as a type due to common immunity but much of that is from undead, and you can turn those.

Seems like a common sense that Tempest is at top for Cleric and Divination/Abjuration for Wiz.