Pathfinder Damage reduction barbarian build? [Archive]

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Deca4531

2018-04-04, 09:42 PM

Deca4531

2018-04-05, 08:51 PM

Aw, I was really hoping for at least one suggestion.

upho

2018-04-05, 10:18 PM

Nicely compressed combo. Though I've seen the invulnerable rager + Stalwart + Bolster Resilience combo quite a few times before, I don't think I've seen it fully online anywhere near as early as 5th. That may of course have been at least partially because of those builds having other/additional goals, but still.

However, AFAICT that's also unfortunately pretty much all this build is so far; a nicely compressed melee durability combo. If my suspicions are correct, this build, just like most of the other ones that I've seen including the same combo, is primarily based on the false premise that being able to take a lot of punishment is by itself a perfectly viable combat specialization, and that focusing exclusively on this "specialization" is a sound mechanical build goal.

So unless this was actually meant purely as a TO exercise to see "what's the most durable a Paizo build can be in melee at 5th?" or similar, I believe there's quite a few vital parts missing, to say the least. As is, at 5th I guess it would probably still be able to pull its weight as a melee combatant in most parties/games. But if clinging to the same durability focus, this build will become nothing except a literal meat shield not worth its costs within a few levels.

So my improvement suggestion is simply that you find a way to make all those investments into durability worthwhile, a way to put all that invulnerability to really good use of actual value to a party.

Arkain

2018-04-06, 02:09 PM

At level 11 there's Improved Stalwart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-stalwart) to consider and if barbarian is continued without interruption, Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex) comes online at level 13 (as well as Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-reflexes-combat)), so one could use the additional resiliency to negate the additional damage that will likely result from it. Using a feat for Extra Rage Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/extra-rage-power), one might get Spell Sunder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/spell-sunder-su) by level 9. Power Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat-final/) at 9 means no Improved Sunder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-sunder-combat-final) (for Spell Sunder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/spell-sunder-su)) though. Still, spell sundering can be quite useful. That might also be the moment for a second fighter level, at the cost of even more delay in rage powers. There's also Increased Damage Reduction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/increased-damage-reduction-ex) for a potential "always" on increase in DR. It's tricky and using up the early feats for the trick don't help in making the character a long term threat, as it takes a while to get other nice things or necessities. I'd probably delay the defense a bit and trust in the natural DR of the archetype, focusing on offense first.

On that note, it's a long journey from level 5 to 11+.

upho

2018-04-06, 03:37 PM

Come and Get Me (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/come-and-get-me-ex) (as well as Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-reflexes-combat)), so one could use the additional resiliency to negate the additional damage that will likely result from it.
Spell Sunder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/spell-sunder-su)
Power Attack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/power-attack-combat-final/)
Improved Sunder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-sunder-combat-final)These are all very sound suggestions. I'd perhaps add the Strength Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/Rage-Powers/paizo-rage-powers/strength-surge-ex) rage power to that if you intend to use Spell Sunder, and most importantly Internal Fortitude (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/Rage-Powers/paizo-rage-powers/internal-fortitude-ex) and a flawed scarlet and green cabochon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon/), replacing Roused Anger with full rage-cycling.

And for a really strong offense without even having to deal damage, I highly recommend the Savage Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/Rage-Powers/paizo-rage-powers/savage-dirty-trick-ex) rage power, plus the Dirty Fighting and Improved and Greater Dirty Trick feats of course. Add a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes and you'll be able to shut down enemies hard. Even greater when complemented with Come and Get Me, and hilariously strong with Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat/) at 11th, as merely two successful dirty tricks against the same foe is enough to daze or nauseate it for at least 2.5 rounds on average, typically enough to effectively take it out of the fight completely. Works best with a dueling (PSFG) (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) furious (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/furious/) weapon for massive dirty trick CMB bonuses (add dispelling (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/dispelling/) for Spell Sunder).

There's also Increased Damage Reduction (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/increased-damage-reduction-ex) for a potential "always" on increase in DR.This is unfortunately useless for this build, as the DR doesn't stack with that of the Invulnerability feature (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9uqg).

Arkain

2018-04-06, 04:20 PM

Come to think of it, Stalwart doesn't require Combat Expertise. I'd probably put it way back in the feat line, as the bonus will only be better than defensive fighting (with three ranks in acrobatics, mind you) at 12 BAB, so there's literally no gain, except a slightly reduced penalty to attack rolls. I'd wager getting other feats earlier is more than worth it, though.

These are all very sound suggestions. I'd perhaps add the Strength Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/Rage-Powers/paizo-rage-powers/strength-surge-ex) rage power to that if you intend to use Spell Sunder, and most importantly Internal Fortitude (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/Rage-Powers/paizo-rage-powers/internal-fortitude-ex) and a flawed scarlet and green cabochon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun-stones/scarlet-and-green-cabochon/), replacing Roused Anger with full rage-cycling.

And for a really strong offense without even having to deal damage, I highly recommend the Savage Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/Rage-Powers/paizo-rage-powers/savage-dirty-trick-ex) rage power, plus the Dirty Fighting and Improved and Greater Dirty Trick feats of course. Add a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes and you'll be able to shut down enemies hard. Even greater when complemented with Come and Get Me, and hilariously strong with Dirty Trick Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dirty-trick-master-combat/) at 11th, as merely two successful dirty tricks against the same foe is enough to daze or nauseate it for at least 2.5 rounds on average, typically enough to effectively take it out of the fight completely. Works best with a dueling (PSFG) (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) furious (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/furious/) weapon for massive dirty trick CMB bonuses (add dispelling (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/dispelling/) for Spell Sunder).

Very nice indeed. But now I can't shake off the mental image of a very angry guy being very stoic when hit by anything who seems to have some everlasting hatred for spells and pants. He must destroy them at all costs. If there isn't a spell, there's pants to destroy! Bonus points, if he's a dwarf wearing a kilt. :smallamused:

Hmm, with that ioun stone one could even try to retrain the Endurance feat one got from unbreakable. That does result in total dependence on it, though.

This is unfortunately useless for this build, as the DR doesn't stack with that of the Invulnerability feature (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9uqg).

Oh come on, Paizo!

Hogsy

2019-03-21, 08:32 PM

So I have been playing around with a Barbarian tank build, wondering if its any good and how to improve it. In short it works like this

Start off with a Barbarian with the invulnerable rager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/invulnerable-rager) archetype which gives you DR = to 1/2 Bar LV. Next take Combat Expertise to gain dodge bonus to AC then the feat Stalwart (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/stalwart) to turn that into DR that stacks with Bar DR. Then use the Bolster Resilience (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/bolstered-resilience) to double it all. Now the bolster resilience makes you fatigued, but if you take the Roused Anger rage power you become immune to the fatigue. This could all be done by lv 5.

Human: Feat Combat expertise
Lv1 Barbarian, feat Bolster resilience
Lv2 fighter with Unbreakable (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo-fighter-archetypes/unbreakable/) archetype to get endurance and diehard for free, pre reqs for stalwart
Lv3 Barbarian, feat: extra rage, Rage Power: Roused Anger
Lv4 Barbarian
Lv5 Barbarian, Feat: Stalwart, Rage Power: Reckless Abandon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/reckless-abandon-ex/) (offsets the hit penalty from combat expertise)

So assuming you have a good Con, mostly D12 hit dice, and a con boost from rage, you should have high HP. On top of that Diehard to stay up below 0, basically and extra 20 or so HP, heavy armor proficiency from fighter for a high AC, and DR 8/- against one hit per turn as long as you rage, and DR 4/- when not raging. At level 5 I think that's pretty good, but what do you guys think, did I miss something that would break this build, or do you have any suggestions to improve it?

Level 12 Halfling Invulnerable Rager (with Unchained if allowed) / MoMS 2 (to get Crane Style for free) with Improved Stalwart and 2x Improved DR power grants you DR 19/--.

Cautious Warrior trait

1. IuS (monk 1)
2. Crane Style (Monk 1)
3. Cautious Fighter (Level 1)
4. Diehard (Level 3)
5. Endurance (Level 5)
6. Stalwart (Level 7)
7. Crane Wing (increases dodge bonus when fighting defensively by a +4 as long as you're getting hit) (Level 9)
8. Impr. Stalwart (Level 11)
9. Come & Get Me (Level 13)

As an Ex-Monk you don't lose abilities you have already gained.

This means that when fighting defensively you only suffer a -2 to attack rolls and gain a +10, so you're maxxing your Impr. Stalwart DR. This is all you can do though and only get a free attack per round from Come & Get Me. With Haste you're looking at 4 attacks per round that will hit but they won't be dealing more than 3d6+12ish so that's a DPR of 88 at level 14. Not that great. You ain't getting killed though. PA at 15 means your DPR increases to 136 but it's still not that great. You ain't useless by any means, just not that great at dishing out damage.

RNightstalker

2019-03-28, 05:21 PM

If 3.0 is allowed, go with an ogre barbarian...racial adjustments give you two bonus feats (and con boost) for LA +2, which you use on toughness as a prerequisite for Roll With It (SS 39-Prerequisites Con 20, Toughness), which gives you DR 2/- that stacks with itself and any other sources. At Level 6 you'll have DR 8/-, dump all your feats in it for DR 21/- at level 19, then you can start going to the Epic Feat Damage Reduction for an additional 3/- per feat at 21 and beyond.

Kaouse

2019-03-29, 10:44 AM

Level 12 Halfling Invulnerable Rager (with Unchained if allowed) / MoMS 2 (to get Crane Style for free) with Improved Stalwart and 2x Improved DR power grants you DR 19/--.

Cautious Warrior trait

1. IuS (monk 1)
2. Crane Style (Monk 1)
3. Cautious Fighter (Level 1)
4. Diehard (Level 3)
5. Endurance (Level 5)
6. Stalwart (Level 7)
7. Crane Wing (increases dodge bonus when fighting defensively by a +4 as long as you're getting hit) (Level 9)
8. Impr. Stalwart (Level 11)
9. Come & Get Me (Level 13)

As an Ex-Monk you don't lose abilities you have already gained.

This means that when fighting defensively you only suffer a -2 to attack rolls and gain a +10, so you're maxxing your Impr. Stalwart DR. This is all you can do though and only get a free attack per round from Come & Get Me. With Haste you're looking at 4 attacks per round that will hit but they won't be dealing more than 3d6+12ish so that's a DPR of 88 at level 14. Not that great. You ain't getting killed though. PA at 15 means your DPR increases to 136 but it's still not that great. You ain't useless by any means, just not that great at dishing out damage.

This is generally the build I go for, only I do it by grabbing a Deep Red Sphere Ioun Stone and putting it in a Wayfinder to get Improved Unarmed Strike without spending a feat on it. From there, retrain your earlier level feats into Dodge and Crane Style. As for Endurance (which I would point out, needs to be taken BEFORE Diehard), I would get that from a flawed Scarlet and Green Cabochon, which also enables rage cycling. Crane Wing isn't necessary, just Crane Style and Fighting Defensively.

As far as I can tell though, your build only has 18 DR, not 19. Which should be 16, because Paizo made the unfortunate and ludicrous ruling that Invulnerable Rager Barbarians can't actually take the Increased DR rage power, despite such a ruling basically being in conflict with an earlier ruling saying that archetypes replacing an ability with something functionally the same still count as said ability.

That said, this build goes down hard to higher level Power Attack and/or Rend users (or worse, Clustered Shot users), who basically ignore your DR. But against anything weaker/lower level than you? They'll struggle to deal damage. It's a pretty fun build, with lots of highs and lots of lows. I would definitely recommend grabbing Flesh Wound to increase your longevity.

upho

2019-03-29, 04:56 PM

I have to seriously question the value of this kind of build. It suffers even more than the OP's from very serious "Defender Imbalance". Meaning as I mentioned earlier (slightly compressed):
this build is primarily based on the false premise that being able to take a lot of punishment is by itself a perfectly viable combat specialization, and that focusing exclusively on this "specialization" is a sound mechanical build goal.

So unless this was actually meant purely as a TO exercise to see "what's the most durable a Paizo build can be in melee at 5th?" or similar, I believe there's quite a few vital parts missing, to say the least. As is, at 5th I guess it would probably still be able to pull its weight as a melee combatant in most parties/games. But if clinging to the same durability focus, this build will become nothing except a literal meat shield not worth its costs within a few levels.

In more detail:

Level 12 Halfling Invulnerable Rager (with Unchained if allowed) / MoMS 2 (to get Crane Style for free) with Improved Stalwart and 2x Improved DR power grants you DR 19/--.Nope, as both I and now Kaouse have mentioned, Improved DR does absolutely nothing for an Invulnerable Rager. Not that it matters much though, as you'll still be far more resilient in melee than you need to be.

This is all you can do though and only get a free attack per round from Come & Get Me. With Haste you're looking at 4 attacks per round that will hit but they won't be dealing more than 3d6+12ish so that's a DPR of 88 at level 14. Not that great. You ain't getting killed though. PA at 15 means your DPR increases to 136 but it's still not that great. You ain't useless by any means, just not that great at dishing out damage.Thing is, piling on melee defense without giving enemies any incentive to hit you instead of your allies is bound to fail in many (most?) games (see more below). And considering you hit like a wet noodle in comparison to most melee builds and have no melee control/debuff abilities to compensate for that fact, even at 15th level, you don't exactly provide enemies (with an Int score) with much of any such incentive to hit you. Which in turn also makes CaGM much less valuable since it will rarely trigger more than a couple of times per combat.

This is generally the build I go for,You actually play this build in a real game? How's that working out?

only I do it by grabbing a Deep Red Sphere Ioun Stone and putting it in a Wayfinder to get Improved Unarmed Strike without spending a feat on it. From there, retrain your earlier level feats into Dodge and Crane Style. As for Endurance (which I would point out, needs to be taken BEFORE Diehard), I would get that from a flawed Scarlet and Green Cabochon, which also enables rage cycling. Crane Wing isn't necessary, just Crane Style and Fighting Defensively.These changes are great IMO, as they may potentially free up enough resources to mitigate the serious defender imbalance and save the build from mediocrity (or being dead weight in higher op games).

That said, this build goes down hard to higher level Power Attack and/or Rend users (or worse, Clustered Shot users), who basically ignore your DR. But against anything weaker/lower level than you? They'll struggle to deal damage.Huh? How 'bout a simple blaster sorcerer? Or say a big monster using combat maneuvers? Or a Str-based unMonk, Mutagenic Mauler Brawler, Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy Bloodrager or combo thereof with Pummeling Style or - gods forbid - Pummeling Charge and Horn of the Criosphinx? Even these types of high damage and/or melee control builds which largely or completely ignore you DR will likely eat you for lunch, and most importantly will have your allies for breakfast. And there's very little you can do about it. Even worse, you don't have a credible defense against anything targeting your Will.

It's a pretty fun build, with lots of highs and lots of lows. I would definitely recommend grabbing Flesh Wound to increase your longevity.Really? You think even more hp damage protection, and one limited to once per rage cycle and requiring a potentially impossibly high Fort save at that, is a good idea? Why?

Again, I'd say there's one huge gaping hole in this build's practical functionality: it gives you tons of abilities telling your enemies to ignore you, and nothing telling them to hit you instead of your allies. In short, it does a great job at invalidating your investments. And once you're the last (wo-)man standing, you'll quickly go down to focused fire anyways.

On top of that, it's "invulnerability" is largely limited to mitigating melee hp damage, while it doesn't have particularly great defenses against any of the many other common types of offense employed by monsters commonly faced at this level, and even lacks Superstition. Nor does it have any viable active defenses enabling you to hamper/hinder/shut down enemies outside you own turn. Reducing yourself to a mobile 5' cube of meat isn't a particularly effective combat focus IME...

Barbarians can IME indeed be great martial party defenders with awesome durability - in a game limited to 1PP options the class is most likely only bested by the bloodrager in such a martial combat role/function/focus - but this is most definitely not the way to achieve that greatness.

Kaouse

2019-03-29, 08:18 PM

I'm playing this game right now in the Sword of Air campaign, combined with the Beastkin Berserker archetype (which has problems wearing armor to begin with). My AC is by far the lowest in the campaign, so enemies often aim for me rather than my compatriots. Like I said, lower level enemies often can't even deal damage to me, but facing higher level opponents always comes down to a bloody slogfest. I'm not facing a lot of enemy UnMonks or w/e, but I'm including them and all other strong physical damage powerhouses in the "Power attack/rend" bunch as the main problem for the build.

That said, I don't really have much problems with anything else. Due to Superstitious and the Human FCB, I have by far the highest saves in the party while I'm raging, and have managed to avoid a LOT of **** that otherwise would have killed me and/or my party. My Beastkin Berserker archetype also gives me a Beast Shape that stacks with Rage, which makes both my CMB and CMD rather titanic, so I've never had to worry about enemy combat maneuvers. My current plan with my next few level ups is to grab Throat Slicer and Strength Surge, which would allow me to grapple and kill almost anything in short order. Should work really well with enhanced reach from Beast Shape.

Flesh Wound is a bit of interesting thing for me. My GM allowed me to apply my DR to the damage BEFORE the save, meaning that the Fortitude save is often more than manageable, and with it, I basically negate one attack per round with rage cycling (although the nonlethal damage applies fully). I admit that it probably wouldn't be the best option if you were forced to make the save BEFORE the damage, though it's still rather useful against medium-sized hits that would otherwise chip you down through your DR. Note though, if you are going for Flesh Wound, you'd probably also want a Cyclops Helm in case an enemy lands a x4 crit or something. Since saves automatically pass regardless of DC on a nat 20, it's a nice once per day save vs huge damage.

I have yet to make use of Come and Get Me, but I assume that it should greatly help the slog. Unfortunately it doesn't work all that well with turning into a Huge sized beast, since my DEX falls below the 13 needed for Combat Reflexes. Eventually, probably all the way in the late game, I'll increase my DEX, and at that point I doubt that there'll be much that can match me in combat. Though for now, I'm gonna try and make use of my single attack of opportunity by attempting to tentacle-grab anyone who approaches me while I'm Beast Shape'd into a Giant Squid. Should be decent enough at stopping most full attacks, I'd wager.

upho

2019-03-30, 02:38 AM

Beastkin Berserker with SuperstitionNow this is something quite different than the build Hogsy described, having both a much greater need of increased DR due to the loss of AC when using beast shape, and more importantly significantly better offensive power with which to get the attention of enemies along with most likely greater melee reach.

Btw, with beast shape III on a party defender tank kinda build with CaGM, I'd definitely ignore the typical natural attack grapple and/or charge damage focused options, and instead go for a devil monkey (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/devil-monkey/) wielding say a huge double-chained kama for a baseline 37.5'+ threatening reach radius. Yes you can do that as a devil monkey (at least in games played according to the published suggestions regarding animal item use and slots (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Magic-items/#Magic_Item_Slots_for_Animals)). Add Savage Dirty Trick, rage cycling and maybe Dirty Trick Master and Ascetic Style for ridiculously effective large area melee control, allowing you to take multiple opponents out of the fight every round, especially with some relatively cheap supporting stuff (such as a dueling (PFSG) furious main end + training (Ascetic Style) off end double-chained kama, a training (Dirty Trick Master) Amulet of Mighty Fists for 4k and maybe a cracked opalescent white pyramid in a wayfinder (2k total) for darn cheap proficiency and Weapon Focus with the double-chained kama). Aside from the combat effectiveness, a major advantage with this is that you don't have to kill enemies in order to win combats, but can instead easily interrogate them afterwards.

But if you're set on grappling and believe some higher op combos would work with your game - and you're mostly looking to kill opponents with hp damage - I highly recommend you go for Raging Grappler, Unexpected Strike and say Vicious Stomp instead of Throat Slicer, retraining earlier choices if needed and/or complementing with training weapons and a cracked deep red sphere (200 gp) in a wayfinder (or headband of twisted intellect) for IUS. Like most coup de grace or grapple related things, Throat Slicer unfortunately has poor action economy, while the Raging Grappler combo can give you the equivalent of more than three additional hits per round with a high reliability. In any case, simply opting an "attack -> grab -> constrict -> release -> repeat" full attack routine with multiple natural attacks is going to be vastly more effective and less clunky to use than Throat Slicer, albeit even more boring IMO. And remember that you don't want to be grappling anything outside your own turn since it prevents you from making AoOs (and you can't release a grapple outside your own turn).

I have yet to make use of Come and Get Me, but I assume that it should greatly help the slog. Unfortunately it doesn't work all that well with turning into a Huge sized beast, since my DEX falls below the 13 needed for Combat Reflexes.Yeah, it's the classic melee control issue for Paizo builds. I recommend you either improve your belt for a Dex boost or buy a wand of cat's grace ASAP. You do really want to both increase that number of AoOs per round and take full advantage of being Huge size.