The Bag of Rats thing

[Jerrykhor]

Always mentioned whenever an ability has the 'when you kill or reduce a hostile creature to 0hp'. Has anyone actually tried it? I assumed it would be hard to find a DM who would allow such a thing.

Is it RAW though? My DM told me that rats aren't considered enemies. I tried finding the definition of enemy/hostile creature, but only found a brief mention of NPC attitudes in the DMG p288. 'A hostile creature opposes the adventurers and their goals but doesn't necessarily attack them on sight.' By that line, rats sure as hell aren't hostile. But some people said you can make the rats hostile by mistreating them, keeping them in a cage, etc. I'm no expert on rats, but still, I'd like to know if it would work by RAW.

It really gets on my nerves whenever people see something like the Mystic's Consumptive Knife and go like 'INFINITE PSI POINTS LOL'

[kardar233]

Our party Warlock has a bag of assorted fowl and such for getting his Hex going in the morning, so he can have it up at the start of an encounter and refresh that slot before the day starts properly. They also are good for breakfast, and he is an excellent cook. I’ve always assumed he just buys more at the towns we go to, or has our Ranger trap for him.

WRT the hostile/non-hostile thing; if you keep anything in a bag overnight it’s gonna be hostile in the morning.

[Mith]

Always mentioned whenever an ability has the 'when you kill or reduce a hostile creature to 0hp'. Has anyone actually tried it? I assumed it would be hard to find a DM who would allow such a thing.

Is it RAW though? My DM told me that rats aren't considered enemies. I tried finding the definition of enemy/hostile creature, but only found a brief mention of NPC attitudes in the DMG p288. 'A hostile creature opposes the adventurers and their goals but doesn't necessarily attack them on sight.' By that line, rats sure as hell aren't hostile. But some people said you can make the rats hostile by mistreating them, keeping them in a cage, etc. I'm no expert on rats, but still, I'd like to know if it would work by RAW.

It really gets on my nerves whenever people see something like the Mystic's Consumptive Knife and go like 'INFINITE PSI POINTS LOL'

For me, saying something is non hostile breaks immersion for me. Incapacitating and then murdering a creature that is unaware of your existance should be a valid option.

Anything that could allow infinite power loops I would cap the quantity of power, and the number of times you can get this power with said ability.

[JNAProductions]

A way I once worked around this is by giving HP equal to the enemy's CR (squared, in this case, but ultimately the point was basing it on CR).

That way, CR 0 (Harmless) enemies give nothing, and you have to have something at least VAGUELY a threat to gain anything.

[Mith]

A way I once worked around this is by giving HP equal to the enemy's CR (squared, in this case, but ultimately the point was basing it on CR).

That way, CR 0 (Harmless) enemies give nothing, and you have to have something at least VAGUELY a threat to gain anything.

If multiple enemies are killed at once, do you add up the CR before squaring or after? This makes <1 CR monsters reeeally inefficent.

[JNAProductions]

If multiple enemies are killed at once, do you add up the CR before squaring or after? This makes <1 CR monsters reeeally inefficent.

It'd be taken one at a time.

And I'm okay with that-though I think the feature only worked with a bite attack, which is obviously single-target.

[JellyPooga]

Our party Warlock has a bag of assorted fowl and such for getting his Hex going in the morning, so he can have it up at the start of an encounter and refresh that slot before the day starts properly. They also are good for breakfast, and he is an excellent cook. I’ve always assumed he just buys more at the towns we go to, or has our Ranger trap for him.

WRT the hostile/non-hostile thing; if you keep anything in a bag overnight it’s gonna be hostile in the morning.

I kind of like the idea of a Warlock that starts his day with a morning ritual sacrifice to his Dark Lord. It doesn't work for all characters that might abuse the "bag o' rats" idea, but for a Warlock or Cleric (or similar devotional character), I can see it working thematically, at least.

[Jerrykhor]

I kind of like the idea of a Warlock that starts his day with a morning ritual sacrifice to his Dark Lord. It doesn't work for all characters that might abuse the "bag o' rats" idea, but for a Warlock or Cleric (or similar devotional character), I can see it working thematically, at least.

My dark lord was Asmodeus, and my DM said that he most likely would not be pleased with a puny rat as offering lol.

[JellyPooga]

My dark lord was Asmodeus, and my DM said that he most likely would not be pleased with a puny rat as offering lol.

As a daily offering, you can hardly be expected to offer up a virgins' soul every morning (not until you get to higher levels, anyway...:smallamused:).

[Beltas]

I play a fiend pact warlock. My dm allows the bag of rats for hex, but not for the thp. His ruling is that a meaningful threat is required for that.

As far as I can tell, RAW makes no such distinction, but I can’t imagine many dms allowing what effectively turns something that is supposed to be an infrequent bonus to effectively an at-will power. I think that the RAI argument is easily made: if the power was intended to be at-will, it would have been written as at-will.

I do like the ritual sacrifice (or snackrifice since they’re eaten afterwards?) from kardar. Makes a deliciously thematic way of starting up hex for the day.

[DivisibleByZero]

If one of my players says the words "bag of rats" or any derivation thereof, rocks fall.
Their attempt at abuse (or their attempt to game the system, however you prefer to phrase it) will be much less effective than mine can be.

[Contrast]

I imagine most of the 'bag of rats' abuse could be reasonably controlled by a DM accurately representing how difficult it would be to successfully contain, transport and keep alive a large number of rats for any significant period of time :smallbiggrin:

Edit - In terms of making a ruling as a DM to try and avoid it, as a rough guide I'd probably say anything with a challenge rating of 0 doesn't count.

[Willie the Duck]

If one of my players says the words "bag of rats" or any derivation thereof, rocks fall.
Their attempt at abuse (or their attempt to game the system, however you prefer to phrase it) will be much less effective than mine can be.

Same logic, but I never let it get that far. Better to nip it in the bud before someone builds a character concept around something that won't fly. When one starts a campaign with new players, it is best to hammer out which... immersion-disrupting artifacts of the game's design one considers a step too far, and at the same time, offer up exceptions to the rules that favor the players to facilitate better choices.

My campaigns definitely do not include bags of rats, coffeelocks, wish-simulacrum abuse, one-handed PAM quarterstaves and shields, or elaborate danceline routines trying to maximize out-of-combat Healing Spirit. OTOH, an 11th level fighter who wants to be a thrown-weapon specialist can draw 3 javelins a turn (but that does not mean they get 3 other types of object-interaction actions). And if the warlock wants to cast Hex at the beginning of the day preemptively... well then we will sit back and discuss what we think the spell is supposed to do and if it should have to be cast the first round of combat or not, but bags of rats will not be involved.

I feel bad for the designers, I have the luxury of saying, "you know what I mean," or, "and don't bother with cheese, I'll just ban it," they don't.

[DivisibleByZero]

Same logic, but I never let it get that far.

I don't need to stop it from getting that far. My players aren't gamist exploiters. And if they tried to be, they're learn very quickly that I don't play like that and don't let players at my table do so either.

[Willie the Duck]

I don't need to stop it from getting that far. My players aren't gamist exploiters. And if they tried to be, they're learn very quickly that I don't play like that and don't let players at my table do so either.

I know. I don't think anyone really does. No one really tries the wish-simulacrum thing (unless they are deliberately trying to be cheeky). This is all white-room. :-P

[Unoriginal]

I know. I don't think anyone really does. No one really tries the wish-simulacrum thing (unless they are deliberately trying to be cheeky). This is all white-room. :-P

You'd be surprised. Some do try that kind of exploit.

Was more of a thing in the 3.X era, though. If it's dying or dead, I'm glad.

[Willie the Duck]

You'd be surprised. Some do try that kind of exploit.

Oh, I'm sure. Somewhere, at some point. It is never a good idea to speak in absolutes. :smallbiggrin:

Especially offline and with new players, where people don't go over this constantly, I'm sure it happens. There's probably even someone who thinks they are the first to think of it.

But,...


Was more of a thing in the 3.X era, though. If it's dying or dead, I'm glad.

...that's really what I mean. The culture of saying, "look what I can bend the rules into? Isn't that impressive/ridiculous?!" has morphed into rolled eyes and exasperated sighs.

[Unoriginal]

...that's really what I mean. The culture of saying, "look what I can bend the rules into? Isn't that impressive/ridiculous?!" has morphed into rolled eyes and exasperated sighs.

Indeed, indeed. Call me petty if you want, but I honestly think it's a change for the better.

Even nowadays on this subforum, people who post supposedly game-breaking stuff are mostly met with "yeah, no, it doesn't work" or "yeah, no, it's not that impressive.

[sir_argo]

Our party Warlock has a bag of assorted fowl and such for getting his Hex going in the morning, so he can have it up at the start of an encounter and refresh that slot before the day starts properly. They also are good for breakfast, and he is an excellent cook. I’ve always assumed he just buys more at the towns we go to, or has our Ranger trap for him.

WRT the hostile/non-hostile thing; if you keep anything in a bag overnight it’s gonna be hostile in the morning.

What benefit does this provide? Hex is a bonus action to cast, or if the target drops to 0 or fewer HP, you can use a bonus action to move the Hex to a new target.

So Sue doesn't use Bag of Rats. First encounter of the day, she uses her bonus action to cast Hex on one of the foes.

Joe uses Bag of Rats and has his Hex up early in the morning. First encounter of the day, he uses his bonus action to move his Hex to one of the foes.

Both Sue and Joe used a bonus action to get their Hex on one of the foes in the encounter. What did Joe "save" by casting it first thing in the morning.


I'm not getting it. What does casting Hex on a rat first thing in the morning actually accomplish?

-- just re-read the part where it says "refresh that slot". Isn't that a short rest? Which takes an hour and Hex only has a duration of an hour? How do you have Hex up after "refreshing" it?

[kardar233]

What benefit does this provide? Hex is a bonus action to cast, or if the target drops to 0 or fewer HP, you can use a bonus action to move the Hex to a new target.

So Sue doesn't use Bag of Rats. First encounter of the day, she uses her bonus action to cast Hex on one of the foes.

Joe uses Bag of Rats and has his Hex up early in the morning. First encounter of the day, he uses his bonus action to move his Hex to one of the foes.

Both Sue and Joe used a bonus action to get their Hex on one of the foes in the encounter. What did Joe "save" by casting it first thing in the morning.


I'm not getting it. What does casting Hex on a rat first thing in the morning actually accomplish?

-- just re-read the part where it says "refresh that slot". Isn't that a short rest? Which takes an hour and Hex only has a duration of an hour? How do you have Hex up after "refreshing" it?

Since we’re 7th Level, he’s casting Hex from a 4th-level slot which gives it an 8-hour duration. That gives him time to get up in the morning, cast it, have a leisurely meal of the rabbit he cast it on (short rest), then continue with the day.

The party doesn’t mind the delay because his cooking is really good.

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah, what kardar said.
There is a real, functional benefit to doing this. Otherwise it wouldn't even be worth mentioning.

Given how ambivalent most people seem to be about warlocks generally and Hex specifically, it seems the absurdity of the bag of rats part is more jarring than the actual attempt at getting the spell and spell slot too (especially since why else have the high duration for the spell?).

[rbstr]

It's an exploit to gain an extra spell slot per day (and, for fiends, THP for the kill). The bag of rats is just mechanical nonsense to enable it. Being some kind of breakfast cook is only making it fancier.

If I were DMing for someone that tried to do this I'd make it exceedingly laborious. Either gotta get up and catch something every morning with the associated time spend and survival check (better make sure your watch timing is correct to get that 8 hours+hours to hunt+1 hour short rest before it's noon...and hope while you're out hunting alone nothing comes to eat you instead). Or you gotta make sure you explicitly buy the chickens and haul the cages and feed for the chickens which might be quite heavy with a typical warlock's strength.
You're certainly not keeping "assorted fowl" in bags without them suffocating or overheating or freezing to death depending on the weather....those might happen in cages too.
Plus they're gonna be noisy all the time. And if you drop the pack to fight they'll certainly get caught in AOE...

Rats just kill each other in the bag overnight or escape or whatever.

[Beltas]

It's an exploit to gain an extra spell slot per day
Not sure I agree it’s an exploit. It’s clearly legal RAW and, I suggest, RAI as well. The increased duration at higher levels clearly envisions a situation where Hex carries past short rests.

Even your characterisation of “an extra spell slot per day” is loaded. While strictly true, it contextualises Warlock spells as a daily resource, making the extra slot seem cheesier. A better phrasing would have been, “an extra spell slot for the first combat of the day. Maybe. Unless the walock decides to lead off with a different concentration spell.” Getting same benefit for the first combat of the day that is already available for subsequent fights doesn’t sound quite so OP when phrased that way...