Durkon's moment of glory?

[Mad Humanist]

There is that look of astonishment on Durkula's face. Inside he is probably asking Durkon for a memory (presumably about Roy) that explains what is going on. Durkon has little reason (or motivation for that matter) to connect the giraffes to Hilgya. So now he has a free hand to throw up some memory to completely mislead Durkula. This is his chance to shine and I have no idea how he should play it.

[hroþila]

I don't think Durkon can show the vampire anything he wants as a response to a request/command if there's no matching memory.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html

[Mad Humanist]

I don't think Durkon can show the vampire anything he wants as a response to a request/command if there's no matching memory.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html

The point of my question is that Durkula's question might be so vague that Durkon has an almost free hand.

[D.One]

The point of my question is that Durkula's question might be so vague that Durkon has an almost free hand.

Quite sure that's not how it works. Durkon is probably as bugged as Greg in the matter.

That said, I do agree Durkon will be highlighted in the fight to come.

[Morquard]

Greg has shown a remarkable ability to not be able to connect the dots between two memories, and Durkon realized that.

So my guess is, he will answer any question with a serious of absolutely true memories, that would solve the riddle if connected, but if not will portrait a false impression.

I've no idea what and how.

[D.One]

Greg has shown a remarkable ability to not be able to connect the dots between two memories, and Durkon realized that.

So my guess is, he will answer any question with a serious of absolutely true memories, that would solve the riddle if connected, but if not will portrait a false impression.

I've no idea what and how.

Greg: "What the Hel is this?!"

Durkon: "Colorful giraffes, me' think."

[Mad Humanist]

Greg: "What the Hel is this?!"

Durkon: "Colorful giraffes, me' think."

Which might prompt Durkon to show a montage of Elan's illusions.

[factotum]

Thing is, as far as we know Durkon has never seen these things before either--I don't recall Hilgya summoning anything similar in the short time he knew her back in the day. It's unclear exactly what memory he could thus provide.

Also, Durkula's puzzled expression doesn't mean he's taking time out to speak to Durkon, because he's already said that those interactions happen at the "speed of thought"--it effectively takes so little "external" time for him to check those memories that it might as well be instant.

Now, that isn't to say that Durkon is going to have no input whatsoever in the upcoming fight, but I just don't think it's happening right now. Maybe once Hilgya actually walks into the room the internal monologue will really start.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is starting to become the new "Thisis the scene when Belkar dies" thing, isn't it?

Now, I might be wrong, but if Durkon manages to affect Greg from his prison, I doubt it will happen at any time prior to the climax of Book 6. By my calculations, this fight is mid-point-ish. The Exexarch has been sent away, which suggests there will be another confrontation down the line. That tells me that this fight will not end with Greg's destruction. I doubt he will win (although I wouldn't bet anything of value on a specific outcome), but he won't lose completely either.

Now, I suppose Durkon could be a meaningful part of why Greg loses this fight, and I respect Rich's storytelling ability to trust he could spin that story even if I cannot, but all in all, I would not expect Durkon to figure out how to break Greg from the inside until the final fight. This just seems too early.

Instead, I wouldn't be surprised if Durkon got another piece of the puzzle, one that will come in handy in the climax fight, but won't be of any immediate use for this fight.

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

For what it's worth, I do think Durkon has something in mind for this fight, but this is a gut feeling and more based on the fact that he was given one panel all to himself so that he could muse about the oncoming fight than on any kind of reasoning on my part.

[hamishspence]

Now, I might be wrong, but if Durkon manages to affect Greg from his prison, I doubt it will happen at any time prior to the climax of Book 6. By my calculations, this fight is mid-point-ish.


The books tend to alternate in size.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338549-OOTS-By-Page-Count/page9

War & XPs was thicker than Paladin Blues
Don't Split The Party was thinner than War & XPs (by online count at least)
Blood Runs in the Family was thicker than Don't Split The Party


Maybe Book 6 will be thinner than Blood Runs In the Family?

If so, if it's close to Don't Split The Party in thickness, we may be close to the climax.

[Keltest]

The books tend to alternate in size.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338549-OOTS-By-Page-Count/page9

War & XPs was thicker than Paladin Blues
Don't Split The Party was thinner than War & XPs (by online count at least)
Blood Runs in the Family was thicker than Don't Split The Party


Maybe Book 6 will be thinner than Blood Runs In the Family?

If so, if it's close to Don't Split The Party in thickness, we may be close to the climax.

Indeed. Didn't Rich mention somewhere that the Godsmoot fight was the mid point?

Edit: No, it was a third of the way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472566-The-pace-the-pace-The-pace-is-too-slow/page2&p=20211651#post20211651).

Regardless, that tracks with this being the big climactic fight where things start de-escalating and problems get resolved faster than they get created, at least pertaining to this book's story.

[D.One]

Indeed. Didn't Rich mention somewhere that the Godsmoot fight was the mid point?

Oh, mighty wisdom from fruitter places
We summon thee for what we don't know
Give us the answer in Giant phrases
Mystic Banana, it's time to show

Edit: Ok, answer came without fruitty intervention. I'll keep the verse, anyway. Liked it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The books tend to alternate in size.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338549-OOTS-By-Page-Count/page9

War & XPs was thicker than Paladin Blues
Don't Split The Party was thinner than War & XPs (by online count at least)
Blood Runs in the Family was thicker than Don't Split The Party


Maybe Book 6 will be thinner than Blood Runs In the Family?

If so, if it's close to Don't Split The Party in thickness, we may be close to the climax.

We're only about a dozen pages from matching DSTP's on-line content. The kicker, as always, is the bonus content.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The books tend to alternate in size.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338549-OOTS-By-Page-Count/page9

War & XPs was thicker than Paladin Blues
Don't Split The Party was thinner than War & XPs (by online count at least)
Blood Runs in the Family was thicker than Don't Split The Party


Maybe Book 6 will be thinner than Blood Runs In the Family?

If so, if it's close to Don't Split The Party in thickness, we may be close to the climax.

My calculations are not based on number of pages but on where the story is. As I said, this does not feel like the fight where Greg will get destroyed, not with the Exexarch still at large. because that would mean the final fight with vampires would not be against Greg, but against his former second in command, and that just doesn't fit.

GW

[Fyraltari]

Oh, mighty wisdom from fruitter places
We summon thee for what we don't know
Give us the answer in Giant phrases
Mystic Banana, it's time to show

Edit: Ok, answer came without fruitty intervention. I'll keep the verse, anyway. Liked it.
Needs more eldritch.


For what it's worth, I do think Durkon has something in mind for this fight, but this is a gut feeling and more based on the fact that he was given one panel all to himself so that he could muse about the oncoming fight than on any kind of reasoning on my part.
Maybe something to do with Odin. A brawl to the death taking place in the hall of the main War-God of the Norse/Northern Pantheon... Okay I admit I have no idea where I'm going with it.


This is starting to become the new "Thisis the scene when Belkar dies" thing, isn't it?

Now, I might be wrong, but if Durkon manages to affect Greg from his prison, I doubt it will happen at any time prior to the climax of Book 6. By my calculations, this fight is mid-point-ish. The Exexarch has been sent away, which suggests there will be another confrontation down the line. That tells me that this fight will not end with Greg's destruction. I doubt he will win (although I wouldn't bet anything of value on a specific outcome), but he won't lose completely either.

Now, I suppose Durkon could be a meaningful part of why Greg loses this fight, and I respect Rich's storytelling ability to trust he could spin that story even if I cannot, but all in all, I would not expect Durkon to figure out how to break Greg from the inside until the final fight. This just seems too early.

Instead, I wouldn't be surprised if Durkon got another piece of the puzzle, one that will come in handy in the climax fight, but won't be of any immediate use for this fight.

Grey Wolf

I don't know. The dwarven vampires without Lurkon are pretty weak, they could be easily dispatched without getting climatic. I also suspect that at least one vampire will (un)live to plague the Dwarven Lands for years to come so that Durkon's prophecy gets more fullfilled that "oh about two-dozen people died". The Exaarghistheonlyother prominent vampire, he'd beperfect for that role.

The Climax of the book could easily involve Hilgya. I am afraid that three climatic fights withthe same villain in such a quick succession would be repetitive.

[hamishspence]

Indeed. Didn't Rich mention somewhere that the Godsmoot fight was the mid point?

Edit: No, it was a third of the way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472566-The-pace-the-pace-The-pace-is-too-slow/page2&p=20211651#post20211651).

Regardless, that tracks with this being the big climactic fight where things start de-escalating and problems get resolved faster than they get created, at least pertaining to this book's story.


We're only about a dozen pages from matching DSTP's on-line content. The kicker, as always, is the bonus content.

Given that book 6 began on strip 947, and the Godsmoot Battle ended on strip 1026 - that's 80 strips.

By extrapolation from "1/3 of the way through" - this suggests on the order of 240 strips for this book.

We're currently about 170 strips in - so, just over 2/3 of the way through, and we might expect another 70 strips.

This might be an upper rather than a lower bound estimate though.

[Keltest]

Given that book 6 began on strip 947, and the Godsmoot Battle ended on strip 1026 - that's 80 strips.

By extrapolation from "1/3 of the way through" - this suggests on the order of 240 strips for this book.

We're currently about 170 strips in - so, just over 2/3 of the way through, and we might expect another 70 strips.

This might be an upper rather than a lower bound estimate though.

I am, at this point, expecting an extended sequence of Greg's plans steadily falling apart as he learns that he wasn't half as clever and capable as he thought he was. Durkon doing... whatever it is he is going to do... will feature prominently in this, and probably fairly soon, because he needs to get at least a few actually effective shots in before the end of the book.

[Kish]

I'll guess there's at least one book section after the current one. (Sections we've already had include: Gnometown confrontation with Crystal and Bozzok, The Godsmoot, and Bandana defeating Andi while the Order defeated frost giants.)

[Fish]

As I said, this does not feel like the fight where Greg will get destroyed, not with the Exexarch still at large. because that would mean the final fight with vampires would not be against Greg, but against his former second in command, and that just doesn't fit.
This is true, but as I see it, if Durkon is raised before the battle with the Exarch, then we will be able to witness what Durkon has learned from the experience, and how he has grown.

My prediction:

1. Durkula is in fact destroyed here.
2. Hilgya stays behind to resurrect Durkon (a 10-minute spell).
3. The rest of the Order goes forward to defeat Exarch.
4. Order begins to fall prey to the disease, as foreshadowed by Hel.
5. Durkon resurrected by Hilgya, saves day.

This seems like a likely sequence to me. It gives Durkon and Hilgya an opportunity to talk together, and even work together (go Team Cleric!) without interference from the others. This is Durkon's growth moment; it is the revelation of his changed character. It also allows Durkon to save the day himself, perhaps with Hilgya's assistance, to show if (and whether) he mended fences with her.

I could be wrong, of course. But I could totally see why this is the final "battle" with Durkula, still leaving significant content for later.

[Fyraltari]

4. Order begins to fall prey to the disease, as foreshadowed by Hel.


The virus does not love Hel enough for it to matter now. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html)

[Kish]

Hel might have other minions she can send, though.

That said, I think more likely when the battle turns against the vampires Greg will retreat in mist form, leaving any of his spawn who haven't been destroyed yet to be destroyed (including the one with the poncho, to the distress of some forum posters), and join up with the Exarch for another final battle later.

[Fyraltari]

Hel might have other minions she can send, though.

That said, I think more likely when the battle turns against the vampires Greg will retreat in mist form, leaving any of his spawn who haven't been destroyed yet to be destroyed (including the one with the poncho, to the distress of some forum posters), and join up with the Exarch for another final battle later.

You know they really need a way to counter that disappearing trick of his. Is there a way they could ? Some sort of air spell maybe?

EDIT: Hel is rather short on minions and it doesn't look like Thrym has many more to offer, unless another god secretely made a deal with them and is still willing to go through with it (not Hermod for example) I really think she's played all the cards she had.

[tyckspoon]

You know they really need a way to counter that disappearing trick of his. Is there a way they could ? Some sort of air spell maybe?


Forcecage and other force-structure creating spells will do it neatly, as could most Wall spells (assuming the floor and ceiling are solid and do not offer gaps a stream of mist could flow through.) Walls are generally Conjuration, however, which is V's banned school, so if they need to try to contain a gaseous form vampire another Forcecage or something like Resilient Sphere would be the best bet. These spells typically require teleportation or special means to escape that aren't on the normal Cleric list, so Durkula is unlikely to be able to get out of one on his own (1 main exception: You can usually destroy them with Disintegrate, which is a spell on the Destruction clerical Domain. Durkula may reasonably have this.)

You can also affect a gaseous form's movement with wind spells, such as Gust of Wind, but that's only going to blow the vampire against a wall or something and isn't useful for long-term control or destruction.. unless you can Gust it directly into one of the things that destroys it, I suppose, like blowing it out a window into sunlight or forcing it into running water (underneath a waterfall or a flowing font of holy water, possibly?)

[Kish]

Greg can still be harmed when in mistform, and while he can fly, he's slow. If he's reduced to 0 hit points, he loses the ability to shift out of it, and has two hours to reach his coffin. If he does so, he is helpless for the next hour; if he doesn't he's destroyed outright.

[Morquard]

I'm expecting Roy's sword to reveal a new undead centered power soon, to counter that somehow. Maybe force him back into flesh form.

[factotum]

1. Durkula is in fact destroyed here.
2. Hilgya stays behind to resurrect Durkon (a 10-minute spell).


What reason would she have to do that? She hates him, remember?

[RatElemental]

What reason would she have to do that? She hates him, remember?

For the satisfaction of killing him again?

[factotum]

For the satisfaction of killing him again?

She's a cleric. She can Plane Shift and taunt him directly in the afterlife rather than having to bring him back to life to do so (a la Vaarsuvius). :smallwink:

[Goblin_Priest]

I think there's a hint of disappointment in his face, that his much anticipated villain gloat speech was ruined by the most bizarre and anticlimactic opening.

[Rogar Demonblud]

So, Nale getting upstaged by Thog, version 2?

[D.One]

I was looking at the Page count thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338549-OOTS-By-Page-Count/page9), and Book 6 is pretty close to reach NCftPB, W&XP and DStP in number of online strips and pages. Maybe we are closer than we thought of the book's climatic battle...

[Fincher]

The Exexarch has been sent away, which suggests there will be another confrontation down the line. That tells me that this fight will not end with Greg's destruction. I doubt he will win (although I wouldn't bet anything of value on a specific outcome), but he won't lose completely either.

I can think of at least one movie offhand where the final conflict wasn't against the main villain, but against what they'd already put into motion.

[skim172]

My theory is that Durkon has been feeding specific memories to Durkula that paint Roy as a brash, reckless hothead who always rushes into battle without a plan or strategy, loses his self-control easily in response to emotional triggers, and has an especial, obsessive fixation on Xykon. This leads Durkula to plan for a battle with a completely incorrect reading of his foe, leading to Durkula's defeat.

However, I predict that Durkula will escape and still try to carry out his plan at the meeting of the dwarven kings, leading to the big climax of the plot there.

I also think Durkon won't be resurrected in the end. :(

[D.One]

My theory is that Durkon has been feeding specific memories to Durkula that paint Roy as a brash, reckless hothead who always rushes into battle without a plan or strategy, loses his self-control easily in response to emotional triggers, and has an especial, obsessive fixation on Xykon.

I think Elan describes my opinion better than myself... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1110.html)

[Mandor]

This is true, but as I see it, if Durkon is raised before the battle with the Exarch, then we will be able to witness what Durkon has learned from the experience, and how he has grown.

My prediction:

1. Durkula is in fact destroyed here.
2. Hilgya stays behind to resurrect Durkon (a 10-minute spell).
3. The rest of the Order goes forward to defeat Exarch.
4. Order begins to fall prey to the disease, as foreshadowed by Hel.
5. Durkon resurrected by Hilgya, saves day.

This seems like a likely sequence to me. It gives Durkon and Hilgya an opportunity to talk together, and even work together (go Team Cleric!) without interference from the others. This is Durkon's growth moment; it is the revelation of his changed character. It also allows Durkon to save the day himself, perhaps with Hilgya's assistance, to show if (and whether) he mended fences with her.

I could be wrong, of course. But I could totally see why this is the final "battle" with Durkula, still leaving significant content for later.While I mostly love this proposed sequence, I just can't see Hilgya working together with Durkon. I COULD see her casing a rez just to read him the Extended Dance Remix version of the Riot Act, and to forbid him from seeing Kudzu ever again. That would be sad, but duty-bound Durkon might accept it. Now, whether or not some OTHER member of the party (Elan?) could get through her preconcieved viewpoint and bring her around.... I dunno. She's not Miko, but she's VERY able to justify her preconceptions, at least to her own satisfaction.

[Fish]

While I mostly love this proposed sequence, I just can't see Hilgya working together with Durkon.
To be honest, I can't see how Hilgya would want to work with Durkon ... but when I wrote the sequence, I also knew there were damn few other clerics that we know of who are capable and willing to do the job. The alternatives to Hilgya are a) a mysterious high-powered cleric pops out of nowhere to rez Durkon but then doesn't come help save the world, or b) the Order goes back to the Godsmoot and asks some cleric there for help. They aren't particularly likely either. Being rezzed by Hilgya is more likely, I feel, precisely because she's not likely to want to accompany Durkon after this.

[AutomatedTeller]

I am pretty sure Durkon will be returned to the party, somehow. It seems likely that it will be Hilgya who will do it, though I have no idea why she would. Maybe so she can have the satisfaction of killing him herself - after all, her intent was to come here to do just that.

If she tries to kill him, I think Durkon will try to stop the Order from killing her, since she's the mother of his son. Thor only knows what would happen then. But I'm starting to speculate on a chain of events that will probably not take place the way I see them.

[D.One]

To be honest, I can't see how Hilgya would want to work with Durkon ... but when I wrote the sequence, I also knew there were damn few other clerics that we know of who are capable and willing to do the job. The alternatives to Hilgya are a) a mysterious high-powered cleric pops out of nowhere to rez Durkon but then doesn't come help save the world, or b) the Order goes back to the Godsmoot and asks some cleric there for help. They aren't particularly likely either. Being rezzed by Hilgya is more likely, I feel, precisely because she's not likely to want to accompany Durkon after this.

I was thinking to myself... if Hylgia has any Rezz prepared, one thing she could have done to help them was to rezz brother Sandstone, adding another mid-level cleric to their troops.

[zimmerwald1915]

It seems likely that it will be Hilgya who will do it, though I have no idea why she would.
Ten gold says Roy dangles her out a window.

[TRH]

I was thinking to myself... if Hylgia has any Rezz prepared, one thing she could have done to help them was to rezz brother Sandstone, adding another mid-level cleric to their troops.

Rezz is really expensive, and not to be done lightly. More importantly, it's a really high-level spell, and not one most clerics would prepare on days when they're knowingly entering combat. Honestly, I'm surprised looking back that Durkon had it ready at all when they were in Girard's Pyramid, given that sizable opportunity cost.

[zimmerwald1915]

Rezz is really expensive, and not to be done lightly. More importantly, it's a really high-level spell, and not one most clerics would prepare on days when they're knowingly entering combat. Honestly, I'm surprised looking back that Durkon had it ready at all when they were in Girard's Pyramid, given that sizable opportunity cost.
It probably says something about how pessimistic he was that the Draketooths would help the Order, and that the entire Order would survive.

[TRH]

It probably says something about how pessimistic he was that the Draketooths would help the Order, and that the entire Order would survive.

Well, the Doylist reasoning is obvious enough - to drive home the point about the Draketooths' deeply ingrained paranoia regarding the Sapphire Guard. Watsonian reasoning - I guess he wanted to make sure there wasn't another DSTP situation, or something.

[Jasdoif]

It probably says something about how pessimistic he was that the Draketooths would help the Order, and that the entire Order would survive.And/or he was worried about losing his marbles diamonds again (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html), and/or he was expecting to use the slots for mass cure serious wounds so he had a lot of leeway on what he prepared in them.

[TRH]

Other other explanation: Durkon kept a spell slot or two open when he prepared spells that morning, and filled one with Resurrection once he realized he needed it. The question would be whether Hilgya felt inclined to do the same today. Still guessing no, honestly.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I was thinking to myself... if Hylgia has any Rezz prepared, one thing she could have done to help them was to rezz brother Sandstone, adding another mid-level cleric to their troops.

Why would she rezz some random Thorian cleric?

Anyhow, I'm wondering how Durkon's mother is going to factor into this.

[Keltest]

Ten gold says Roy dangles her out a window.

Ill take that bet. It will be over a mountain ledge.

[Fish]

Of course, there are always two other possibilities: Durkula gets away and is never destroyed, or Durkula is destroyed but Durkon is never rezzed at all.


Why would she rezz some random Thorian cleric?
Per this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), the cleric would receive a telepathic signal indicating Hilgya's alignment. So if Hilgya is Chaotic Evil, or even Chaotic Neutral, why would any cleric of Thor answer a call to be resurrected by her?

[Rogar Demonblud]

That would be the next question after mine is resolved, yes. Also, I think the spell identifies the cleric's patron deity, which also makes it a non-starter.

[Snails]

The thing about mistform is that you need an appropriate escape route or V just magic missiles you to oblivion. Really, most damaging spells could do the deed; V is powerful enough to blast through Protection from <energy> or Resist <energy> spells, albeit it may take some time.

"Realistically" speaking, Greg can easily escape if he makes his choice early and accepts that all these minions are speedbumps to be sacrificed to buy a round or two head start. If he sticks around and gets beaten down in an effort to win here, he could be killed outright by a single spell from V.

As for Durkon's moment of glory, no, I think this will be the first real round between them, where Durkon might claim a minor moral victory. The big showdown will be the big showdown at the council meeting, I would guess.

As for what the heck these giraffes were, Durkon would not know. Some kind of shadow magic from Elan is about as good as guess as Durkon could come up with, based on his direct experience with the Order. I note that this clever little plan has the interesting effect of delaying Hilgya's entrance, which I expect to be awesome in multiple ways.

[KorvinStarmast]

As for what the heck these giraffes were, Durkon would not know. Some kind of shadow magic from Elan is about as good as guess as Durkon could come up with, based on his direct experience with the Order. I note that this clever little plan has the interesting effect of delaying Hilgya's entrance, which I expect to be awesome in multiple ways. Yeah. Looking forward to that. :smallcool:

[D.One]

That would be the next question after mine is resolved, yes. Also, I think the spell identifies the cleric's patron deity, which also makes it a non-starter.

Yeah, I know, not likely at all the she would do it and the he would accept it.

OTOH, I find it really believable that she has Rezz prepared for two reasons:

1) She can always spontaneously convert it

2) She's bringing Kudzu for a fight. She would be ready to rezz him.

[Rogar Demonblud]

By RAW, infants and children can't be Raised or Resurrected because they aren't statted. Unintentional consequence of trying to keep people from using orc babies as an XP Mill, I guess.

[D.One]

By RAW, infants and children can't be Raised or Resurrected because they aren't statted. Unintentional consequence of trying to keep people from using orc babies as an XP Mill, I guess.

Couldn't find it written anywhere, only the restriction against raising/resurrecting someone who died of old age.

[RatElemental]

Couldn't find it written anywhere, only the restriction against raising/resurrecting someone who died of old age.

But does the child have a hitdie to lose? Do they even have a con score that can be lowered if not?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Nope. As stated, they don't have stats. Also, this means a bard can't get XP for putting on a puppet show for kids.

:elan: Awwww.

[Fyraltari]

Couldn't find it written anywhere, only the restriction against raising/resurrecting someone who died of old age.

Resurrecting makes you lose a level, right? And people who have negative level die? If children are stattless would that make them level 0?

Because if it does and I am correct then resurrecting a children would automatically re-kill them unless house-ruled.

Is that right?

[Kish]

Resurrecting makes you lose a level, right? And people who have negative level die? If children are stattless would that make them level 0?

Because if it does and I am correct then resurrecting a children would automatically re-kill them unless house-ruled.

Is that right?
Resurrection by a less powerful spell than True Resurrection normally makes you lose a level.

No one is level 0; conceptually that would be nonexistence.

If you're level 1 and you're resurrected, you lose 2 Constitution instead of a level.

[Fyraltari]

Resurrection by a less powerful spell than True Resurrection normally makes you lose a level.

No one is level 0; conceptually that would be nonexistence.

If you're level 1 and you're resurrected, you lose 2 Constitution instead of a level.

Okidok, thanks.

[Snails]

Baby Heracles had stats and could gain XP, too. He might be an unusual case.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And if you don't have a high enough CON score to allow that, the spell fails and you stay dead.

[D.One]

Yeah, but the case here is that we avoid giving stats for a kid because we are not interested at wall in putting them in the middle of a fight, for example. That doesn't mean they are undead that don't have a CON score. They have it, anyone who's alive has it.

I believe the main deterrent to Rezz a baby or a kid would be what happened with Roy's brother, possibly: being an inocent kid, he gained a free pass to a good (or at least a pleasant) afterlife, and thus he'd have little interest in returning.

[TRH]

Speaking of Durkon and glory, I just realized that he'll probably get a weapon upgrade before this is over. It seems like he lost his hammer in the pyramid, so he'll certainly need a replacement. Maybe the Council of Elders will give the Order something as a reward for saving the world. Seeing how everyone else (besides Vaarsuvius who doesn't use weapons) has had a weapon upgrade already, he's also overdue for one of his own.

[KorvinStarmast]

Durkon's glory is, I predict, going to play out like this.
The fight ends.
Durkula goes down.
Durkon gets rezzed.

Durkon stays in dwarfland, his exile finally over. That is his reward.

Hilgya joins OoTS as their cleric.
And this is a reach ... but Durkon stays home to raise Kudzu after he and Hilgya make peace with each other. Elan is the key mediator in that reconciliation. He doesn't have to be smart to do this; Roy can do smart, as can Haley. What he has to be is a good friend, and charismatic and persuasive.

As we head into book seven, Roy is heartbroken that his best friend won't be with him for the final battle.

[2D8HP]

Durkon's glory is, I predict, going to play out like this.
The fight ends.
Durkula goes down.
Durkon gets rezzed.

Durkon stays in dwarfland, his exile finally over. That is his reward.

Hilgya joins OoTS as their cleric.
And this is a reach ... but Durkon stays home to raise Kudzu after he and Hilgya make peace with each other. Elan is the key mediator in that reconciliation. He doesn't have to be smart to do this; Roy can do smart, as can Haley. What he has to be is a good friend, and charismatic and persuasive.

As we head into book seven, Roy is heartbroken that his best friend won't be with him for the final battle.


Oh wow.

That's beautiful, sweet, and sad all at once.

Call me impressed.

[Snails]

Hilgya's delays her big entrance, again.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah, but the case here is that we avoid giving stats for a kid because we are not interested at wall in putting them in the middle of a fight, for example. That doesn't mean they are undead that don't have a CON score. They have it, anyone who's alive has it.
Pretty much the bold. You can stat young and very young children of PC races, it's just that there's no point because 1) they're not interesting combatants to run and 2) having small children in combat makes most people uncomfortable, for good reasons.

Just as an exercise, though, if I were to stat Kuzdu, here's how I'd do it:

Kuzdu, 1st-level humanoid
Size/Type Tiny Humanoid (Dwarf)
Hit Dice 1d8+5 (9 hp)
Initiative +1
Speed 20 ft.
Armor Class 13 (+2 size, +1 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple +0/-11
Attack Unarmed strike -1 melee (1d2-3 nonlethal)
Full Attack Unarmed strike -1 melee (1d2-3 nonlethal)
Space/Reach 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks Dwarf traits
Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft., dwarf traits
Saves Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities Str 4 Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills Concentration +4, Diplomacy +2, Knowledge (religion) +2, Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats Toughness
Environment Temperate mountains (Deep: Underground)
Organization With Hilgya
Challenge Rating 1/6
Treasure -
Alignment Neutral
Advancement By character class
Level Adjustment +0

Humanoid babies get 1 Humanoid hit die and the size adjustments associated with Tiny size. I gave Kuzdu an Elite array of ability scores because as the child of two adventuring Clerics (one needs pretty high stats to qualify to take a PC class) he'd have better genes and be more inclined to eventually take a PC class at some point. He'd be well-suited to Cleric himself. Skills are fairly arbitrary.

[Keltest]

Pretty much the bold. You can stat young and very young children of PC races, it's just that there's no point because 1) they're not interesting combatants to run and 2) having small children in combat makes most people uncomfortable, for good reasons.

Just as an exercise, though, if I were to stat Kuzdu, here's how I'd do it:

Kuzdu, 1st-level humanoid
Size/Type Tiny Humanoid (Dwarf)
Hit Dice 1d8+5 (9 hp)
Initiative +1
Speed 20 ft.
Armor Class 13 (+2 size, +1 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple +0/-11
Attack Unarmed strike -1 melee (1d2-3 nonlethal)
Full Attack Unarmed strike -1 melee (1d2-3 nonlethal)
Space/Reach 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks Dwarf traits
Special Qualities Darkvision 60 ft., dwarf traits
Saves Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities Str 4 Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills Concentration +4, Diplomacy +2, Knowledge (religion) +2, Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats Toughness
Environment Temperate mountains (Deep: Underground)
Organization With Hilgya
Challenge Rating 1/6
Treasure -
Alignment Neutral
Advancement By character class
Level Adjustment +0

Humanoid babies get 1 Humanoid hit die and the size adjustments associated with Tiny size. I gave Kuzdu an Elite array of ability scores because as the child of two adventuring Clerics (one needs pretty high stats to qualify to take a PC class) he'd have better genes and be more inclined to eventually take a PC class at some point. He'd be well-suited to Cleric himself. Skills are fairly arbitrary.

Kudzu is pretty intelligent for somebody only a few months old. Ive met college students who aren't as smart as this baby.

[zimmerwald1915]

Kudzu is pretty intelligent for somebody only a few months old. Ive met college students who aren't as smart as this baby.
Not even slightly surprised.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I've known college students who could get outsmarted by a houseplant.

[2D8HP]

I've known college students who could get outsmarted by a houseplant.


Based on the grand total of the two college graduates that I've worked with long enough this decade to have an opinion on their intelligence and wisdom, one (the older one) had good mechanical aptitude, and was skilled in his trade, but had a deficit of interpersonal common sense (and I suspect is a psychopath), the other college graduate (the younger one) seems sharp, but a bit less mechanical aptitude, and I'd say is less of a jerk than the average man.

So based on that my conclusion is....

....dang that's still too small of a sample even for me to dare make up some stereotypes!

Oh!

My wife is a college graduate!

She's way smart!

She's also kinda fierce!

Um... that reminds me of something....
.

From age 39 of the 1977 Monster Manual:
"Drow: The "Black Elves," or drow, are only legend. They purportedly dwell deep beneath the surface in a strange subterranean realm. The drow are said to be as dark as faeries are bright and as evil as the latter are good. Tales picture them as weak fighters but strong magic-users.


From: "Descent to the Depths of the Earth" by Gary Gygax, 1978

"Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord, and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However, constant warfare between the two divisions of elvenkind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in the lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the Dark Elvenfolk, the Drow, found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts. And if they were strong enough to face and defeat their former brethren in battle, the Drow no longer desired to walk upon the green lands under the sun and stars. They no longer desired a life in the upper world, being content with the gloomy fairyland beneath the earth that they had made their own. Yet they neither forgive nor forget, and above all else they bear enmity for all of their distant kin - elves and faeries - who drove them down and now dwell in the meadows and dells of the bright world. Though they are seldom if ever seen by any human or demi-human, the Drow still persist, and occasionally they enter lower dungeon levels and consort with other creatures in order to work out their schemes and inflict revenge upon those who inhabit the world above.

Description: Drow are black skinned and pale haired. They are slight of build and have delicate fingers and toes. Their features are somewhat sharper and ears are pointed and large, but this does not make them unhandsome. Their eyes are very large, being all iris and pupil. Male drow are of thin build, about 5' tall, have dead black skin and dead white hair, and the irises of their eyes are orange to orange-yellow. Females are slender and shapely, about 5 1/2' tall, and have glossy black skin and shining silvery hair. The eyes of female Drow are amber, though a few are said to possess irises of lambent violet.

The usual Drow fighting/travelling garb includes a pair of black boots and a hooded black cloak which comes to the ankles of the wearer. The boots are simply black boots of elvenkind manufactured by a different sort of material. The cloaks are woven of spider silk and some unknown fiber which combined with the silk makes them very strong, slippery, supple, and nearly impossible to detect in dungeon-like surroundings. Thus, in boots and cloaks the Drow are 75% undetectable unless they are moving/attacking within 20', the former in direct view of an observer. Drow cloaks are usually not harmed by blows from weapons, as they slide aside and do not tear easily, nor are they easily burned (+6 on saving throws versus fire attacks). However, these garments are very difficult to tailor, and to be effective, the cloaks must neither be above the ankles nor dragging on the ground. Any alteration of a Drow cloak requires a saving throw of 76% or better. Less than this score indicates the material frays and will ravel away when worn, so the cloak is useless.

Drow wear a fine mesh armor of exquisite workmanship. It is an alloy of steel containing adamantite, and even the lowliest fighters have in effect +1 chainmail, with the higher level Drow having +2, +3, +4, or even +5 chainmail. Small bucklers are also used, shields of unusual shape, those of greater experience level and importance in the society having bucklers fashioned of adamantite so as to be +1, +2, or +3 value.

The extraordinary nature of the Dark Elves' armor and weaponry, their magic-like but non-magical plusses, is due only in part to the adamantite alloy from which they are fashioned. The value of this alloy is that when it is exposed to the strange radiation in the Drow homeland (see MODULE D3, VAULT OF THE DROW) for a period of a month, its magical bonuses come to the fore. If the item is kept from this radiation for more than a month, it loses the bonus and becomes merely a finely made item of normal sort."

From Vault of the Drow (also from 1978)

“The Vault is a strange anomaly, a hemispherical cyst in the crust of the earth, a huge domed fault over 6 miles long and nearly as broad. The dome overhead is a hundred feet high at the walls, arching to several thousand feet height in the center. The radiation from certain unique minerals gives the visual effect of a starry heaven… These ‘star’ nodes glow in radiant hues of mauve, lake, violet, puce, lilac, and deep blue. The large ‘moon’ of tumkeoite casts beams of shimmering amethyst which touch the crystalline formations with colors unknown to any other visual experience. The lichens seem to glow in rose madder and pale damson, the fungi growths in golden and red ochres. The rock walls of the Vault appear hazy and insubstantial in the wine-colored light, more like mist than solid walls. The place is indeed a dark fairyland.”

AHA!

"Strong magic-users"!, "Schooled in the arcane arts"!

Clearly college graduates are Drow!

-Your welcome.

[Fyraltari]

Durkon stays in dwarfland, his exile finally over. That is his reward.


Durkon enjoying his reward while there is still a chance that the world gets destroyed, which would mean the death of his newly discovered one-year old offspring on top of everything?

:belkar: Are we 100% sure that Durkon Thundershield isn't just, like, a super common name?

[Anterean]

Durkon enjoying his reward while te word isn't safe and their is still a chance that the world gets destroyed, which would mean the death of his newly discovered one-year old offspring on top of everything?


Yeah I find that somewhat unlikely as well

[factotum]

Durkon's glory is, I predict, going to play out like this.
The fight ends.
Durkula goes down.
Durkon gets rezzed.

Durkon stays in dwarfland, his exile finally over. That is his reward.


The prophecy that caused Durkon to be exiled in the first place was "When he next returns home, he will bring death and destruction for *us all*". I don't think enough of either has happened yet for that prophecy to have been fulfilled, so I'm awaiting the other shoe to drop. I don't think this fight is going to end with Durkula destroyed and Durkon rezzed...

[Fyraltari]

The prophecy that caused Durkon to be exiled in the first place was "When he next returns home, he will bring death and destruction for *us all*". I don't think enough of either has happened yet for that prophecy to have been fulfilled, so I'm awaiting the other shoe to drop. I don't think this fight is going to end with Durkula destroyed and Durkon rezzed...

Still betting that vampire infestation will be a long-term problem for Dwarfland.

[RatElemental]

I interpreted that to be Hel's plan. Death and destruction need not succeed to have been a threat, no?

[Kish]

Also, who's "us all"? We've already had a massacre of dwarven clerics.

[factotum]

Also, who's "us all"? We've already had a massacre of dwarven clerics.

Clerics of Thor. The prediction came from a cleric of Odin (the High Priest, in fact), and as far as we're aware they haven't been touched yet.

[Fyraltari]

Also, who's "us all"? We've already had a massacre of dwarven clerics.

That's about two dozens dead. If that is worthy of "death and desrtuction to us all" I wouldn't want to see what their oracles are like when there's a cave-in or a harsh winter.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's about two dozens dead.
Oh, a healthy society features an entirely predictable mass murder of that size every few weeks.

Right?

[Kish]

More to the point and less close to the no-politics rule, this is just ignoring what I said about who constitutes "us all" and treating it as a given that it means "dwarven society."

[Fyraltari]

Oh, a healthy society features an entirely predictable mass murder of that size every few weeks.

Right?

Are you being sarcastic? I legitimely can't tell.

Assuming you are (because this is the internet)

In a D&D universe? Probably.

Also murderers aren't the only reason people die in mass. See my "cave-in" and "harsh winter" example.


More to the point and less close to the no-politics rule, this is just ignoring what I said about who constitutes "us all" and treating it as a given that it means "dwarven society."
Well your post seemed to imply that we should consider the possibility that "us all" meant those clerics.


Also, who's "us all"? We've already had a massacre of dwarven clerics.
Or are you saying that the prophecy has not begun being fullfilled? That's a possibility but I can't see Durkon getting more "home" than he is now without vindicating Hurak. And I doubt that would happen.

[brian 333]

I have long surmised that Durkon will end his adventuring career upon being raised. Once I supposed that Hilgya would dump Kudzu off on him and proceed with the party to save the world, but her stated hatred of Thor's clerics leads me to believe she will not leave Kudzu in Durkon's care where he will be brainwashed with Dwarven ideals.

I am still leaning toward the idea that Durkon stays behind. After all, there are likely unknown Spawn running about who will become free-willed upon Durkula's destruction, and Durkon is the current highest level cleric in dwarven lands. He will feel an obligation to fix the problem.

And I don't think Durkula's destruction will be delayed. He may escape long enough to allow Durkon to get the last laugh, but Roy looks like he did in the arena with Thog. You know, the look that says, "Let's finish this."

[zimmerwald1915]

He will feel an obligation to fix the problem.
Elan didn't abandon the party to stay with Ian and co. Vaarsuvius was prepared to abandon the party to make restitution, but was convinced not to. Among other reasons, the whole quest is going to be wrapped up in a month at most.

[Fyraltari]

Elan didn't abandon the party to stay with Ian and co. Vaarsuvius was prepared to abandon the party to make restitution, but was convinced not to. Among other reasons, the whole quest is going to be wrapped up in a month at most.

One way or another the problem will be fixed. That's the beauty of the world ending. Your dad's evil empire? Gone. All those dead dragons? Reunited with their loved ones. That lich? Dead for good. That whole goblin/azurite conflict? Over. Those vampires in your home? Not killing your kin anymore. Pants? No need to wear them.


There won't be any problem if there isn't any of anything left!

http://i.imgur.com/K0KPgis.jpg

[/sarcasm]

[Kish]

Well your post seemed to imply that we should consider the possibility that "us all" meant those clerics.
Sure did! One priest of Thor said to another priest of Thor "death and destruction for us all"; you're choosing to read that as "all the dwarves," not "all the priests of Thor," not "everyone who lives in this temple," and not "everyone in the universe regardless of race."

factotum's point that the prophecy came from the high priest of Odin is a better counterargument; if the priest of Odin said "you all" rather than "us all," or if a priest of Odin was in the temple and died along with the Thor priests Greg recently slaughtered, it would be odd that no one commented on that (and of course, the former High Priest of Thor was already dead and the current High Priests of Thor and Odin are both far away from all the action at the Godsmoot). However--I don't consider it necessary for more than has already happened to happen for the prophecy to be true (though there may well be more casualties before Greg is stopped). Others are free to disagree.

[factotum]

An argument can be made either way, I reckon, so we'll have to wait for more story before we find out who's right. Unless anyone here can read the Giant's mind or foretell the future, that is, and I left my crystal ball in the other coat. :smallsmile:

[Fyraltari]

An argument can be made either way, I reckon, so we'll have to wait for more story before we find out who's right. Unless anyone here can read the Giant's mind or foretell the future, that is, and I left my crystal ball in the other coat. :smallsmile:

Let us listen to these wise words, aye.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Oh, that was your crystal ball? It turned up in the lost and found and, well, we had to sell it to pay for our flame war insurance.

[brian 333]

I find it likely that the Death To Us All comment refers to Hel's plot to destroy the world and gain all the dwarven souls that should have gone to other deities, as opposed to Durkula funning around vamping individual dwarves..

But, as has been mentioned, we need more comics to clarify things.

[dps]

Of course, there are always two other possibilities: Durkula gets away and is never destroyed, or Durkula is destroyed but Durkon is never rezzed at all.


Per this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html), the cleric would receive a telepathic signal indicating Hilgya's alignment. So if Hilgya is Chaotic Evil, or even Chaotic Neutral, why would any cleric of Thor answer a call to be resurrected by her?

Durkon is all about doing his duty, and sees helping Roy and company save the world as part of his duty. He can't really help Roy if he's dead unless he gets rezzed, so I think he wouldn't be picky about the alignment of any cleric willing to raise him.

[Snails]

Agreed. Duty. Durkon knows enough to understand that the Order is desperate enough to hire or negotiate for the services of anyone who could get Durkon back for the big showdown.

"Hi. This is Hilgya the Chaotic Evil priestess of Loki calling you back to the land of the living."

Should he say no? He might have a bad feeling about how this would play out, but he would definitely say yes and hope for the best.

[Snails]

The whole point of those rules about notification is to prevent smartass DMs and smartass Players from gaming the system in ways that would make the campaign feel stupid/unfair.

"Hey, the BBEG just escaped with the chopped off hand of the badass bodyguard we just killed. Let's Raise him, right now, so the BBEG cannot."

"You have stood in the way of the Lich King's plans for world dominance for the last time, Paladin. I just Raised you so I can kill you. Then I will Raise/kill you until you are level 1. Then keep doing it until your Con goes to 0."