Monk flexibility fix

[Spacehamster]

So love the idea of the monk but don’t like how inflexible it is in that you are “forced” to at least have 20 DEX and 18(pref 20) WIS whilst also needing a decent CON. To me(and my group) who loves feats this feels limiting. And were wondering if this would not break the class making it too powerful? An extra feat at 6 or at 10, thus freeing up for having two feats in total while maxing your two “mandatory” stats?

[Aett_Thorn]

Personally, I feel like Monks get a ton of cool features as they level up, and they don't need many feats. Certainly, they can be helpful, but it seems as if they knew that Monks were MAD, so made them fairly self-reliant in terms of using their ASIs for stats not feats, while still having plenty of options for what to do on a turn.

I think that giving them extra feats would be a bit imbalancing. But that's just my opinion.

[Spacehamster]

Personally, I feel like Monks get a ton of cool features as they level up, and they don't need many feats. Certainly, they can be helpful, but it seems as if they knew that Monks were MAD, so made them fairly self-reliant in terms of using their ASIs for stats not feats, while still having plenty of options for what to do on a turn.

I think that giving them extra feats would be a bit imbalancing. But that's just my opinion.

Feel it would not make that big a difference since most monks don’t need any of the “big” feats like GWM, polearm master and such, so would allow for mostly flavor making your monk a bit more unique.

[nickl_2000]

I could easily see you doing this at level 6 or 10 for a Four Elements monk, that may be enough to bolster the subclass to make it worthwhile to take.

As for the others I personally don't think it would break anything at level 10, but level 6 may be early. By that level 10 other classes are dropping level 5 spells so the effect wouldn't be as strong.

[Spacehamster]

I could easily see you doing this at level 6 or 10 for a Four Elements monk, that may be enough to bolster the subclass to make it worthwhile to take.

As for the others I personally don't think it would break anything at level 10, but level 6 may be early. By that level 10 other classes are dropping level 5 spells so the effect wouldn't be as strong.

Yeah saw the rogue level of 10 as most fitting too.

[Aett_Thorn]

Well, if you're using standard array: 15 14 13 12 10 8, and with a decent race choice (say +2 to one stat that you need and +1 to something that you don't, so we'll go with high elf for this example), 8 16 13 15 13 10 for stats. If we just use ASIs:

Level 4: Con to 14, and Wis to 16
Level 8: Dex to 18
Level 12: Dex to 20
Level 16: Wis to 18
Level 19: Wis to 20

Now, if you're okay with Con at 13, then you could take a half-feat at level 4. And you could leave Wis at 18 as you say in the OP, and have room for another feat. But yes, you're going to need to make some choices here. But again, I think that Monk features more than make up for needing to make those choices.

[Spacehamster]

Well, if you're using standard array: 15 14 13 12 10 8, and with a decent race choice (say +2 to one stat that you need and +1 to something that you don't, so we'll go with high elf for this example), 8 16 13 15 13 10 for stats. If we just use ASIs:

Level 4: Con to 14, and Wis to 16
Level 8: Dex to 18
Level 12: Dex to 20
Level 16: Wis to 18
Level 19: Wis to 20

Now, if you're okay with Con at 13, then you could take a half-feat at level 4. And you could leave Wis at 18 as you say in the OP, and have room for another feat. But yes, you're going to need to make some choices here. But again, I think that Monk features more than make up for needing to make those choices.

Curious why people seem to bring the monk features to the sky compared to for example a fighter? The monk is quite weak damage wise for a melee class in my opinion. :)

[nickl_2000]

Curious why people seem to bring the monk features to the sky compared to for example a fighter? The monk is quite weak damage wise for a melee class in my opinion. :)

Well at level 5 you can do 3 attacks per round every round without expending any resources. Verses the fighter's 2 (or three with the right fighting style and feat). Using one Ki you can make 4 attacks in a round. You move like crazy, and can move further with expending 1 Ki. Missile attacks aren't really a worry, nor is falling damage. You get evasion, immunity to poison, disease, charm, and frighten. AND You get proficiency in all saving throws (and this is all without subclasses).

A fighter has more offensive options, and can do more raw damage overall. However, a Monk is amazing at avoiding anything with a save or magical. A monk verses a mage is a bad day for the mage. A fighter verses a mage is a bad day for the fighter.


I still think that 1 feat at level 10 wouldn't be to impactful and would make it so the monk would have more variety overall, but the monk base ability set is really good.

[Spacehamster]

Well at level 5 you can do 3 attacks per round every round without expending any resources. Verses the fighter's 2 (or three with the right fighting style and feat). Using one Ki you can make 4 attacks in a round. You move like crazy, and can move further with expending 1 Ki. Missile attacks aren't really a worry, nor is falling damage. You get evasion, immunity to poison, disease, charm, and frighten. AND You get proficiency in all saving throws (and this is all without subclasses).

A fighter has more offensive options, and can do more raw damage overall. However, a Monk is amazing at avoiding anything with a save or magical. A monk verses a mage is a bad day for the mage. A fighter verses a mage is a bad day for the fighter.


I still think that 1 feat at level 10 wouldn't be to impactful and would make it so the monk would have more variety overall, but the monk base ability set is really good.

True I suppose, the monk is a bunch of abilities not too impactful on their own but when combined it makes it powerful.

[Citan]

So love the idea of the monk but don’t like how inflexible it is in that you are “forced” to at least have 20 DEX and 18(pref 20) WIS whilst also needing a decent CON. To me(and my group) who loves feats this feels limiting. And were wondering if this would not break the class making it too powerful? An extra feat at 6 or at 10, thus freeing up for having two feats in total while maxing your two “mandatory” stats?
You know, one way to "fix" this is going Variant Human with Magic Initiate.
Either go Druid, pick Shillelagh and Longstrider, and boost WIS, compensating the non-increased AC (because non-increased DEX) by using a bit more of Dodge.
Or go Wizard/Sorcerer, grabbing Mage Armor and weapon cantrips, so you can safely max DEX while keeping starting WIS. AC 18 is not "great" but largely good enough for a frontliner. Higher level Monk abilities will compensate the fact you get hit more and more often because of increasing to-hit on opposing force.

Both are perfectly acceptable and work very well, although obviously each works better with specific archetypes...
- "DEX" way: Shadow, (Drunken? Tranquility? don't remember those): the only really WIS-dependant is Stunning Strike.
- "WIS" way: Open Hand: the iconic lvl 3 feature relies heavily on WIS. Also that dreadful Quivering Palm.

Works both ways:
- 4E: I'd argue that WIS way is better because of low-level controllish abilities and higher level spells, but you could still take only non-WIS disciplines.
- Kensei: I'd argue that DEX way is better because Kensei is extremely geared towards weapon attacks, but you could also use the lvl 11 ability to instead offset a lowish DEX.
- Long Death: Fear ability is great and relies in WIS, but uses your action. THP on kill relies on weapon attacks, and Shillelagh only improves Extra Attack unless you also grab PAM (but then why go Monk? XD). So both ways are defendable.

And you could also (or instead) stack a Cleric dip on this to get some use for your concentration with Bless or Shield of Faith, even if only 2 times per day it's still a great boost of survivability on the first half-life, largely worth the investment.

[Tanarii]

So love the idea of the monk but don’t like how inflexible it is in that you are “forced” to at least have 20 DEX and 18(pref 20) WIS whilst also needing a decent CON. "forced" is the correct way to write it nothing is being forced. These players are just choosing to value Dex, Wis and Con higher than taking a Feat as an alternative to the ASI.

[JackPhoenix]

The original premise is untrue. You aren't forced to anything. Math-wise, you're expected to have your main stat at 16 until level 12 or so, 18 afterwards. You don't ever need to have stat at 20, if you do, it's a bonus, not requirement. But you're perfectly fine with keeping your main stat at 16 until level 20, you'll be slightly weaker.

If you can get the proficiency and don't mind the loss of unarmored defense, faster movement and martial arts, you can even have Str monk in armor swinging a greatsword, if you wish.

[Naanomi]

Adding extra feats just means a lot of Lucky, Alert, Mobile Monks... it isn’t going to increase Monks taking ‘fluff feats’ in any way (the kind of players who often take those are also the ones who would be fine with an 18 WIS in my experience)

[Theodoxus]

You know, one way to "fix" this is going Variant Human with Magic Initiate.
Either go Druid, pick Shillelagh and Longstrider, and boost WIS, compensating the non-increased AC (because non-increased DEX) by using a bit more of Dodge.
Or go Wizard/Sorcerer, grabbing Mage Armor and weapon cantrips, so you can safely max DEX while keeping starting WIS. AC 18 is not "great" but largely good enough for a frontliner. Higher level Monk abilities will compensate the fact you get hit more and more often because of increasing to-hit on opposing force.

Both are perfectly acceptable and work very well, although obviously each works better with specific archetypes...
- "DEX" way: Shadow, (Drunken? Tranquility? don't remember those): the only really WIS-dependant is Stunning Strike.
- "WIS" way: Open Hand: the iconic lvl 3 feature relies heavily on WIS. Also that dreadful Quivering Palm.

Works both ways:
- 4E: I'd argue that WIS way is better because of low-level controllish abilities and higher level spells, but you could still take only non-WIS disciplines.
- Kensei: I'd argue that DEX way is better because Kensei is extremely geared towards weapon attacks, but you could also use the lvl 11 ability to instead offset a lowish DEX.
- Long Death: Fear ability is great and relies in WIS, but uses your action. THP on kill relies on weapon attacks, and Shillelagh only improves Extra Attack unless you also grab PAM (but then why go Monk? XD). So both ways are defendable.

And you could also (or instead) stack a Cleric dip on this to get some use for your concentration with Bless or Shield of Faith, even if only 2 times per day it's still a great boost of survivability on the first half-life, largely worth the investment.

Another option is to go with Tortle. You'll have a 17 AC until you raise your Dex/Wis to some combination of +8. With a bonus to strength, you could even tank dex if you wanted, going for a more Wis based build with as many ASI devoted to feats as you'd like. Might not be as fun as a human with a starting feat, but definitely an idea.

Personally, I'm really enjoying my tabaxi monk. At 3rd level, capable of running 240 feet in a full out Ki fueled sprint when I really need to get out of dodge, has been pretty amazing.

[Wisefool]

You know, one way to "fix" this is going Variant Human with Magic Initiate.
Either go Druid, pick Shillelagh and Longstrider, and boost WIS, compensating the non-increased AC (because non-increased DEX) by using a bit more of Dodge.

Monk's AC increases with WIS and DEX, so boosting WIS befire DEX hurts attack/dmg/init rolls but not AC.

Also, I went the Vuman w/ MI route for my monk. Its a solid choice.

[Citan]

Monk's AC increases with WIS and DEX, so boosting WIS befire DEX hurts attack/dmg/init rolls but not AC.

Also, I went the Vuman w/ MI route for my monk. Its a solid choice.
You read too fast it seems. ;) I was speaking of lesser AC because in comparison with a Monk that would max DEX and WIS both. ^^

But yeah, it can work very fine with only 16 DEX. Especially if you have a minimum of teamwork in party.

Another option is to go with Tortle. You'll have a 17 AC until you raise your Dex/Wis to some combination of +8. With a bonus to strength, you could even tank dex if you wanted, going for a more Wis based build with as many ASI devoted to feats as you'd like. Might not be as fun as a human with a starting feat, but definitely an idea.

Personally, I'm really enjoying my tabaxi monk. At 3rd level, capable of running 240 feet in a full out Ki fueled sprint when I really need to get out of dodge, has been pretty amazing.
So what are those races I keep reading on? :/
I have guessed from some time ago they come from Voldo or Xanas, but it doesn't help me much since I don't own either...

[Naanomi]

Tortle was an ‘official’ race published online as part of a charity event; AL legal so it has more acceptability than other web-material.

[Theodoxus]

And tied to XGtE, for AL's +1 rule, so it's pretty nice.

[Lombra]

So love the idea of the monk but don’t like how inflexible it is in that you are “forced” to at least have 20 DEX and 18(pref 20) WIS whilst also needing a decent CON. To me(and my group) who loves feats this feels limiting. And were wondering if this would not break the class making it too powerful? An extra feat at 6 or at 10, thus freeing up for having two feats in total while maxing your two “mandatory” stats?

To be honest Wisdom >>> Dexterity on a monk. Any day of the week. You can leave dex at 16 but you want that stunning strike to matter when you need it.

[Daithi]

For me, the Mobility Feat is a must for the monk -- extra speed and don't trigger opportunity attacks. Hit and get out of the way so you aren't hit is how I want to play the monk. In fact, I played a Vuman just so I could start with the Mobile Feat. Beyond that, it was add to WIS and DEX.

I don't think I would have played any differently if I had an extra Feat at 6th and/or 10th level. I would have just done it quicker. I also didn't feel under powered compared to other characters. I was the quick player that dealt moderate damage, stunned opponents, and didn't get hit often.

[Talionis]

I have thought the same thing. The Monk getting another ASI (like a Rogue) would've been a really good idea. They are probably the most MAD class in the game, precisely because as a melee character they should also want a pretty good amount of Constitution. Another option might be a stat boost to Constitution at 7 and 14. This might not free up the ASI's much since you'd still want to get as high of Wisdom and Dexterity, but at least you would have some boosts built into the class.

Its not a glaring error, it doesn't make Monk unplayable, but I can understand how many would feel like the Monk does not allow you the freedom to take more than one feat, because the best option for almost every Monk will be a Stat boost at every ASI, which seems like poor design to me.

[Tanarii]

Its not a glaring error, it doesn't make Monk unplayable, but I can understand how many would feel like the Monk does not allow you the freedom to take more than one feat, because the best option for almost every Monk will be a Stat boost at every ASI, which seems like poor design to me.Even if it were true that ASIs were actually required over Feats for the class, which it's not, its not poor design, because feats are an optional rule in the first place. Every single class could be designed so that ASIs were flat out superior to Feats and it would still be fine design.

[Naanomi]

Even if it were true that ASIs were actually required over Feats for the class, which it's not, its not poor design, because feats are an optional rule in the first place. Every single class could be designed so that ASIs were flat out superior to Feats and it would still be fine design.
In some ways, having useful things with ASIs is a good thing... I’d hate to play a fighter in high levels without feats; and be forced to take +2 to some tertiary stat while other party members are still actively improving their main role

[Tanarii]

In some ways, having useful things with ASIs is a good thing... I’d hate to play a fighter in high levels without feats; and be forced to take +2 to some tertiary stat while other party members are still actively improving their main roleA good reason why including optional feats that aren't always better than ASIs are not poor design.

If there's some classes where they might work well at higher levels, and others where players aren't likely to use them at all, that says something about them being well balanced, as well as appropriate for optional content. In games that aren't expected to go to Tier 4, or even Tier 3, they're not necessarily required at all.