Shadows of the Future... is Star Frontiers coming to 5E?

[LordEntrails]

I've seen some indications for awhile now that WotC is looking to bring the Star Frontiers IP under closer control while at the same time increasing the name awareness. Seems to me this is an indication that WotC might be looking to publish Star Frontiers under the 5E mechanics in the next few years. Below is what I've noticed. What have I missed and what are your thoughts?

- Distribution rights for pdf versions of all the original books have been pulled from community publisher(s). (Why do this unless you want to regain control of distribution? Why start to worry about distribution if you don't want to leverage it for profit?)

- Print on Demand and pdf versions are now only available for purchase through OneBookShelf's sites (along with many other TSR classics). Again, this controls distribution, but also brings the brand into the 'front' and brings it to the attention of the larger RPG community. All the hard core fans already have copies from when they were distributed for free, so you're not looking to monetize from the current fans.

- Starfinder... seems a big consideration that they can't let the competition get away without considering putting out a competing product.

- Hasbro seems pretty keen on sci-fi IP, and building brands, would Star Frontiers fit with their larger efforts? I think it likely.

[Kane0]

I must admit, I had no knowledge of Star Frontiers until this post prompted me to google it.

And old TSR rpg? With Starfinder out and not failing it would seem a safe bet they are up to something.

[Unoriginal]

Any Sci Fi game coming to 5e is hugely unlikely at best.

WotC and Hasbro are veeeeeeeery unwilling to invest too much into D&D. It's unlikely they'd hire a whole new team for a product that experimental and without guaranteed success, and it's even less plausible that they'd take the current D&D team away from their current job to do something else.

At worse they might do a Spelljammer book.

[LordEntrails]

I must admit, I had no knowledge of Star Frontiers until this post prompted me to google it.

And old TSR rpg? With Starfinder out and not failing it would seem a safe bet they are up to something.
What?!?!? Does that mean you probably never played "Top Secret" or "Gangbusters"? Oh, you're youth must have been misspent!


Any Sci Fi game coming to 5e is hugely unlikely at best.

WotC and Hasbro are veeeeeeeery unwilling to invest too much into D&D. It's unlikely they'd hire a whole new team for a product that experimental and without guaranteed success, and it's even less plausible that they'd take the current D&D team away from their current job to do something else.

At worse they might do a Spelljammer book.

Why it is unlikely for WotC to make a Sci Fi game? Starfinder seems to be successful right? Any reason to think the market would not bear another SF RPG.

I won't argue about investment in 5E, instead it is the most successful edition of D&D ever, so whatever business decisions have been made have been good ones.

A new genre would not require the same size team as exists for D&D now. Though why would it be out of character for WotC to invest some of their profits in expanding their product base?

And, more to the point, what other conclusion might be reasonable from the few facts we do know about recent changes with the Star Frontiers IP? Why would have the recent changes been made if their wasn't some change going on?

[Millstone85]

Starfinder takes Pathfinder into space, right? Like, your halfling captain can make a log about finding a planet whose inhabitants played too much with the Plane of Fire.

Wouldn't a renewal of Spelljammer be the answer to that, rather than a space TRPG which, as far as I can tell, doesn't have such fantasy elements?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Starfinder takes Pathfinder into space, right? Like, your halfling captain can make a log about finding a planet whose inhabitants played too much with the Plane of Fire.

Wouldn't a renewal of Spelljammer be the answer to that, rather than a space TRPG which, as far as I can tell, doesn't have such fantasy elements?
Eh, not really? Starfinder is Star Wars-- standard space-opera elements, plus some magic thrown in around the edges. Spelljammer is more John Carter-- standard fantasy elements, but with "other planets" replacing "other kingdoms/dimensions."

[Millstone85]

Eh, not really? Starfinder is Star Wars-- standard space-opera elements, plus some magic thrown in around the edges. Spelljammer is more John Carter-- standard fantasy elements, but with "other planets" replacing "other kingdoms/dimensions."I would expect Starfinder to go much beyond Star Wars, what with the existence of gods and portals to Hell. But I am going by Starfinder's page on Tv Tropes, and I don't know what the SWEU is like these days.

Anyway, MToF will apparently have a steampunk giff. I suppose it does convey a very different feel than the Mass Effect getup I am seing Starfinder characters in.

[Arkhios]

Just a note, though. I'm not aware if the original Star Frontiers used d20 system, but every RPG that comes from WotC doesn't immediately mean it has to be D&D.

WotC has more brands under their wings than just D&D. Granted, D&D is probably the most succesful, but that shouldn't be assumed as their only brand of interest.

[Sigreid]

I wouldn't mind a Star Frontiers reboot. It could even make sense to use the 5e engine as a means of steering science fiction fans to D&D. Much as the Plain Shift documents are an effort to cross pollinate D&D and MtG players.

[Willie the Duck]

What?!?!? Does that mean you probably never played "Top Secret" or "Gangbusters"? Oh, you're youth must have been misspent!

Don't forget Buck Rogers. :smallbiggrin:
(One hopes D&D is done with Dille-family transactions, but I bet a 5e equivalent could be produced as "XXVc")



Why it is unlikely for WotC to make a Sci Fi game? Starfinder seems to be successful right? Any reason to think the market would not bear another SF RPG.

Rather than 'unlikely', I would phrase it as it would be 'surprising' -- WotC has stuck with the minimalist attitude towards the edition despite it being an unmitigated success so thoroughly and with such diligence that it seems like they really really really took lessons from 2e-4e (where increased output did not lead to increased profit, nor evergreen brands).

Honestly, although Gamma World and Saga Edition Star Wars saw some modest success for WotC, overall they have not had much luck expanding D&D outside the bounds of D&D. Frankly, all attempts at expanding TTRPGs beyond D&D have been... successes smaller than Hasbro has seemed interested in chasing.

So yes, 'out of character' and 'surprising' are probably better descriptors than unlikely, but I'm still not holding my breath.

[Consensus]

At worse they might do a Spelljammer book.

How's that an at worst scenario?

[Unoriginal]

How's that an at worst scenario?

I suppose "at best" could have been more appropriate, since Spelljammer is certainly a setting that deserves to be revisited (and we're certainly getting a few elements of it in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, according to the spoilers), but in the context in the post it's "at worst, Hasbro and WotC decide to force a Spelljammer book out to compete against Spacefinder".

[Consensus]

I suppose "at best" could have been more appropriate, since Spelljammer is certainly a setting that deserves to be revisited (and we're certainly getting a few elements of it in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, according to the spoilers), but in the context in the post it's "at worst, Hasbro and WotC decide to force a Spelljammer book out to compete against Spacefinder".

Ah I misread the tone, and I didn't know that elements of it would be in MToF, I haven't kept up with spoilers for it

[Unoriginal]

Ah I misread the tone, and I didn't know that elements of it would be in MToF, I haven't kept up with spoilers for it

Let's just say that according to spoilers, we're going to see a few hippos...

[Willie the Duck]

Let's just say that according to spoilers, we're going to see a few hippos...

They're adding a Fantasia port? I knew Disney was everywhere! :smalltongue:

[Consensus]

Let's just say that according to spoilers, we're going to see a few hippos...

ngl giff aren't my favorite thing about my setting, but Im really glad for this nod to the setting. I really wish I was around for when it was supported.

[LordEntrails]

Star Frontiers used a percentile system. But nothing that wouldn't work well with a d20 system. The biggest challenge, imo, would be the way skills are used. The biggest being in original SF, their are many skills that you can't use if you are not trained in them. The second being that you learn/train skill areas, and most areas have multiple sub-skills in them. So for instance, you train in Computers, you then know how to access data, hack security, run a program, etc.

I still haven't heard any discussion that gives any other conclusions to the observations I made in the OP. No thoughts?

[Sigreid]

Star Frontiers used a percentile system. But nothing that wouldn't work well with a d20 system. The biggest challenge, imo, would be the way skills are used. The biggest being in original SF, their are many skills that you can't use if you are not trained in them. The second being that you learn/train skill areas, and most areas have multiple sub-skills in them. So for instance, you train in Computers, you then know how to access data, hack security, run a program, etc.

I still haven't heard any discussion that gives any other conclusions to the observations I made in the OP. No thoughts?

I can see the logic.

The SF setting is a pretty cool one. Using the 5e engine would be very different as the original rules were very thin and loose. They worked, but the people who lament 5e's flexibility would go insane. Haha

[rbstr]

Personally, I think a Sci-Fi RPG built on the 5e system could work quite well.

Honestly I think I'd try to be more on the pure sci-fi end and keep more distance from spells/gods/fantasy compared to stuff like 40k, Starfinder and Spelljammer.
Someone referenced MassEffect and I think a setting in that direction is a good way to go.

Most base rules would stay about the same. Increase emphasis on gun types as the primary weapons, write up some new classes. Many spells port pretty well to tech/psychic type stuff. You're most of the way there. Fluff up a basic galaxy setting and you're rolling!

[Honest Tiefling]

I'd like to point out that while we've gotten a few glimspes of Eberron, the darling of third edition fans, we really haven't gotten much for it. Heck, I don't think there's much of Ravenloft outside of Curse of Strahd. I'd expect an Eberron supplement before a reworking of the system due to these hints and trying to appeal to old D&D fans.

Through, if you have one sci-fi rule set, it might be easier to release one setting book and a bunch of smaller supplements. Or am I mistaken and is Star Frontier really that different mechanically so it can't use the same rules as Spelljammer?

[Regitnui]

I'd like to point out that while we've gotten a few glimspes of Eberron, the darling of third edition fans, we really haven't gotten much for it. Heck, I don't think there's much of Ravenloft outside of Curse of Strahd. I'd expect an Eberron supplement before a reworking of the system due to these hints and trying to appeal to old D&D fans.

I HAVE BEEN SUMMONSED FROM THE 998TH LAYER OF THE ABYSS!! FREE ONCE MORE TO SPREAD MY FIENDISH GOSPEL!!

In all seriousness, if D&D wanted to pull on the sci-fi fandom, Spelljammer would probably be their best choice. It's almost sci-fi but keeps the iconic races and monsters of D&D in it, making it "D&D in Space" more effectively than some old, obscure setting. I mean, Eberron's more likely to be overhauled from 3.5 than Ghostwalk. Hasbro via WotC is always likely to go for the bigger name recognition, because the bigger name recognition is the bigger fanbase, and a bigger fanbase is more wallets disgorging delicious and hard-earned, should-really-be-going-to-living-expenses-or-debt cash.

[Unoriginal]

I still haven't heard any discussion that gives any other conclusions to the observations I made in the OP. No thoughts?

It could be anything from them planning to do something new with it to it being some legal shenanigans to keep the rights.

[LordEntrails]

I'd like to point out that while we've gotten a few glimspes of Eberron, the darling of third edition fans, we really haven't gotten much for it. Heck, I don't think there's much of Ravenloft outside of Curse of Strahd. I'd expect an Eberron supplement before a reworking of the system due to these hints and trying to appeal to old D&D fans.

Through, if you have one sci-fi rule set, it might be easier to release one setting book and a bunch of smaller supplements. Or am I mistaken and is Star Frontier really that different mechanically so it can't use the same rules as Spelljammer?

SF reboot would not be attempting to appeal to old D&D fans, imo. It's not a D&D setting. It was is a complete game in it's own right. It happened to be one of many game systems created by TSR, but it was/is it's own game. There are no dwarves, no elves, no magic.

Spelljammer is just a setting and some new mechanics. Its appeal would be for D&D players and a few people who aren't opposed to D&D but wanted something more "spacey". Star Frontiers would be able to target a whole different market than SJ. You like Firefly, The Expanse, or The Orville but don't want medieval fantasy? That is who Star Frontiers would be able to pull in. Though it could have many 5E mechanics, it would not use the D&D PHB, DMG, or any thing else already published.


It could be anything from them planning to do something new with it to it being some legal shenanigans to keep the rights.

This is what I'm wondering. What legal need or reasoning? The only thing I can think of is to prep for a future product. I would love to hear other reasons though why they might want or need to do this. I'm curious.

[Regitnui]

SF reboot would not be attempting to appeal to old D&D fans, imo. It's not a D&D setting. It was is a complete game in it's own right. It happened to be one of many game systems created by TSR, but it was/is it's own game. There are no dwarves, no elves, no magic.

And that's your problem. Putting "by the makers of D&D" or trying to pull any of the success of D&D into a mundane sci-fi would hurt both. People who want to play Firefly go look at the Firefly RPG. There are ways of getting the same feel of spaceflight and outlaws on a ship in existing D&D, but they always feel magic to some degree.

If they're removong fan projects or sealing trademarks, it could just be as simple as consolidating their IP. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll do anything with it, just that there's executives somewhere wanting to look at their IP all in a row and consider what's good. They could just leave it to be locked under renewed legal pressure until it expires again.

[LordEntrails]

...
If they're removong fan projects or sealing trademarks, it could just be as simple as consolidating their IP. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll do anything with it, just that there's executives somewhere wanting to look at their IP all in a row and consider what's good. They could just leave it to be locked under renewed legal pressure until it expires again.
This is a viable reasoning, to me at least. Thanks.

[Arkhios]

Slightly unrelated, but my mind races into weird frontiers every so often...
The developers of the infamous website "d20pfsrd" that lists all pathfinder rules had to change various Paizo-owned trademarked names into something different because the website is kept up with 3rd party commercials - and Paizo doesn't like it.

Anyway, as soon as they made a similar website for starfinder (named as "starfindersrd"), it didn't take long that under pressure from Paizo, most likely, they had to change the name of the website into "Starjammersrd" xD


...I can't help but chuckle at that website whenever someone mentions starfinder, spacejammer, or even refer to the game as starjammer.

[LordEntrails]

I would have thought they would have stuck with the same nomenclature/abbreviation as they did with the PF site and go with "d20sfsrd"

Would have made more sense than starjammer which is something totally different anyway.

[Kane0]

...I can't help but chuckle at that website whenever someone mentions starfinder, spacejammer, or even refer to the game as starjammer.

Could be worse, you could be thinking of Spacejam.

[8wGremlin]

have you seen the Hyperlane sci-fi dnd game. it's not bad.


https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/235742298/hyperlanes-cinematic-scifi-for-dnd-5e

[Arkhios]

I would have thought they would have stuck with the same nomenclature/abbreviation as they did with the PF site and go with "d20sfsrd"

Would have made more sense than starjammer which is something totally different anyway.

I've come to understand that Starjammer is a 3rd party project to add more content for Starfinder. It could be there's a sponsorship somewhere between the website and Starjammer.

It's stilly very fishy. Babel fishy, even.


Could be worse, you could be thinking of Spacejam.

Haha, very true!