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hydraphantom
2018-04-06, 12:22 AM
I've been a 3.5e DM for about 4 years now, there is some scenario throughout the campaigns that I want to share with you guys, mostly ridiculous ones.

1. At the final boss fight, the Kensai took a bunch of missiles to the face and barely alive, the cleric wants to heal him but it's not her turn yet. Kensai decides to activate a few buffs to AC and charge the Boss, hoping to negate the boss' AO against charging. I rolled a crit and he becomes meat paste. The guy was PISSED at me for "deliberatly killing him", and says that he ain't suppose to die with such a high AC.

2.
My dwarf PC: I will grab on to the "fin" of the huge mechanical monster (submarine).
Me: OK....? As it starts submerging, you've been dragged into the ocean, if you let go, you will likely be killed by the device that spits blue fire at the back of the machine (engine).
PC: I will try to locate an entrance into this monster. (rolled natural 20)
Me: You discovered a metal hatch 20 feet ahead of you, perhaps it's an entrance.
PC: I will try to crawl to it.
Me: (After a successful crawling roll) OK, you crawled to the hatch, but it's locked, what do you wanna do?
PC: I will use my hammer to smash it open.
Me: huh? Huh?? HUH???

3.
Me: A bunch of metal-skin constructs is heading towards the door, there's a valve to close the door, but it won't budge due to rusting, what do you do?
Wizard PC: I will cast cloudkill on those constructs.
Me: ......They don't seem to be affected by the poison cloud.
Him: But why? It always works!
Me: (How am I suppose to tell him that robot doesn't even have CON stat.)

Pleh
2018-04-06, 06:58 AM
1 sounds like a new player. After the session is resolved, explain the boss's roll and bonus and show how it overcame AC.

2 seems legit. Why not smash it open with a hammer? You might tell him after the first attempt if he's not making progress quickly, but let him figure that out himself.

3 sounds like it's time for the wizard to roll a knowledge check to see if the character is familiar with construct traits.

Gorum
2018-04-06, 12:04 PM
I've been a 3.5e DM for about 4 years now, there is some scenario throughout the campaigns that I want to share with you guys, mostly ridiculous ones.

1. At the final boss fight, the Kensai took a bunch of missiles to the face and barely alive, the cleric wants to heal him but it's not her turn yet. Kensai decides to activate a few buffs to AC and charge the Boss, hoping to negate the boss' AO against charging. I rolled a crit and he becomes meat paste. The guy was PISSED at me for "deliberatly killing him", and says that he ain't suppose to die with such a high AC.

2.
My dwarf PC: I will grab on to the "fin" of the huge mechanical monster (submarine).
Me: OK....? As it starts submerging, you've been dragged into the ocean, if you let go, you will likely be killed by the device that spits blue fire at the back of the machine (engine).
PC: I will try to locate an entrance into this monster. (rolled natural 20)
Me: You discovered a metal hatch 20 feet ahead of you, perhaps it's an entrance.
PC: I will try to crawl to it.
Me: (After a successful crawling roll) OK, you crawled to the hatch, but it's locked, what do you wanna do?
PC: I will use my hammer to smash it open.
Me: huh? Huh?? HUH???

3.
Me: A bunch of metal-skin constructs is heading towards the door, there's a valve to close the door, but it won't budge due to rusting, what do you do?
Wizard PC: I will cast cloudkill on those constructs.
Me: ......They don't seem to be affected by the poison cloud.
Him: But why? It always works!
Me: (How am I suppose to tell him that robot doesn't even have CON stat.)

1. Character loses an arm and is now dying. he must now try to find a replacement or a regeneration spell. There's so many creative things that can happen without a character death! (Death is a psychological anchor, like a very low first bid in negotiations. Reminds him that rule-wise, you've killed him, but the rules are subordinate to YOU, then offer a long term consequence. It might even turn out as a bonus after a while!)

2. I literally don't see a problem with it, unless he's already underwater. In that case, I would suggest he try to pry it open, using the hammer's handle as a crowbar. Then, after he's done, I'd note the hatch don't prevent water from pouring in anymore.

3. I would probably allow a knowledge check beforehand, and give the information on a success. But yeah, a bad player in a bad system.

Kelb_Panthera
2018-04-06, 01:29 PM
1. Dumbass actions are rewarded with pain and death and even the lowliest of mooks will hit one time in 20 no matter how high your AC is. It was a boss he underestimated and he payed the price of his error in judgement. He needs to get over it.

2. He's allowed to swing his hammer in that circumstance by RAW. The penalties suck but it's perfectly rules legal. I hope you allowed it.

3. Nothing but nothing -always- works. If you think he can handle the meta without being a dink just straight-up tell him the rule interaction. If not, have him roll the knowledge arcana and either tell him the type traits when he succeeds or tell him you're following the rules and he'll just have to trust you if he fails.

JNAProductions
2018-04-08, 03:29 PM
1) 20s always hit in D&D. So even a lowly mook can hit him on a 20. The boss? Even with buffs should be hitting on probably no higher than a 15. He did a stupid, and died.

2) That makes perfect sense. He's trying to get in-who cares what damage he causes?

3) Yeah, that's the player being dumb, or over-reliant on their one trick.

MrStabby
2018-04-13, 11:06 AM
1) 20s always hit in D&D. So even a lowly mook can hit him on a 20. The boss? Even with buffs should be hitting on probably no higher than a 15. He did a stupid, and died.

2) That makes perfect sense. He's trying to get in-who cares what damage he causes?

3) Yeah, that's the player being dumb, or over-reliant on their one trick.

Yeah, for 1 seems everyone was doing OK. Kensei wanted to play the hero and take the risk. He took the risk and died. That's what risk means in D&D. It wasn't "stupid" if there was a good reason for it.

For 2 I assumed he was trying to make the pilot bring the submarine to the surface by making it spring a leak rather than actually climb inside.

For 3... yeah, neither smart nor in the spirit of the game really.

Gorum
2018-04-14, 02:09 AM
Hey, OP, why not share awesome stuff too? I'll start.

Star Wars Saga
K.O.T.O.R. universe, on the verge of the Mandalorian wars.
Before I begin, be aware that I heavily houseruled that game. The Jedi class was nerfed and subdivised and equipments could be upgraded by replacing the synthetic catalysts for various gems (this is important). Also, everyone got Space-related talents for free every 3 levels so that no one would be stuck being the taxi.

Two groups of PCs each selected from a list their employer and built their PCs accordingly. They were given an introduction mission, and sent on their merry way.

The artefacts sought were huge crystals which could store Force energy gathered from the planet it was on, and were corrupted to align to one of each deadly sins. One group began on a catfolk planet recently overran by Mandalorians (anger), but received hints for their next destination (Gluttony) before they completed it, and planned their path along the galaxy accordingly. And each artefact's resting place was an abandonned Sin-themed battleship who were dangerous to approach and explore for various reasons.

Anger gave quite a bit of trouble, as its shenanigans was exploring a ship under lockdown while a Force-Wraith kept ambushing and berzerking only to die and come back again. So when they saw Gluttony as the center of a swarm of Mynocks (which followed the last inbred occupiant of the ship), they asked me:


Wrath is full of energy, right?
And the crystal is basically like those used in Blaster weaponry, right?
And the reddish metal that served as the Force-Wraith could channel the force, am I right?
As a tech specialsit, can I load it in a Blaster Cannon?

I answered "yes" to all, they weaponized Wrath, one-shotted the Gluttony Ship, and then, the whole campaign shifted.

Glutonny crashed unto an unstable planet. The PCs' ship all but blew up(-10 cond. Track), the turret blew, and one super-hardened Rodian, and the artefact of Wrath made planetfall without a ship. The ripple of force was immense.

From then on, it wasn't My campaign anymore, but the PCs. Ended in pure, undiluted fun.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-14, 04:24 AM
I don't feel you lose out a great deal by communicating clearly.

1: Crits don't miss.

2: If you ruin the hatch, water will flood the sub and you still wont have any air to breathe.

3: The character might very well know how the spell works. Just explain that it's not going to work.

dps
2018-04-14, 11:23 AM
For 2 I assumed he was trying to make the pilot bring the submarine to the surface by making it spring a leak rather than actually climb inside.


Well, it's not clear; I had assumed the opposite. If he was trying to make it surface, the idea has merit, but if he was intending to enter it himself, doing damage that would cause it to sink is, well, suboptimal.

Chad Hooper
2018-04-14, 01:19 PM
With regard to scenario1:

I used to have a House Rules handout I gave every player a copy of. Top of the list was

1. Stupidity Kills: If you are playing smart, making good choices, but just not making good dice rolls I as DM will not allow flukes of the dice to kill you. On the other hand, if your character is already wounded and insists on charging a dragon with nothing more than a pocket knife, roll a new character, because that will be fatal.

Jarawara
2018-04-15, 09:00 PM
With regard to scenario1:

I used to have a House Rules handout I gave every player a copy of. Top of the list was

1. Stupidity Kills: If you are playing smart, making good choices, but just not making good dice rolls I as DM will not allow flukes of the dice to kill you. On the other hand, if your character is already wounded and insists on charging a dragon with nothing more than a pocket knife, roll a new character, because that will be fatal.

This, this, 10 times this. I tell my players that I will not let errant dice during standard play kill their character. They can be defeated, they can be hurt, they can be captured, but I will not kill them simply cause the dice don't like 'em. But if they start acting stupid, the protections come off, and they are on their own.

The only thing of your statement I would disagree with is the final part "...because that WILL be fatal." (My emphasis, not yours.) I never decide to kill the character. I never determine that something "WILL" happen. I just take away all protections and let the dice fall where they may. Now of course, they got a pocket knife vs a dragon, then yes, practically, they WILL die. But if the player then comes up with some amazing idea to extract themselves from the stupid they put themselves into, if they have some moment of brilliance that overcomes their earlier denseness, if they are just lucky sons of b****es, then maybe they actually CAN slay the dragon with a pocket knife. But it's up to them now, I ain't pulling punches.

I've had a few rare times where a player insists on the stupid, and then found the brilliance and savy to extricate themselves from their stupid, combined with really, really good die rolls, and these are the stories that last for years afterwards. And sometimes it's less spectacular, but the dice just don't kill them off, and they are lucky enough to get away with it. But much of the time they just die.

In regards to the OP, scenario 1. If he was at full health, charging the boss is his job, and you should protect him accordingly, let him do his job. But he was nearly out of HP, one unlucky hit away and a cleric about to heal him up. It was stupid for him to go forward. It might have worked, it might have been glorious, it might have been a tale worth telling. But instead he died. Them's the breaks, he goofed by going forward before healing up, and the dice did not favor him. He will be remembered for his bravery, not his wisdom.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-16, 02:54 PM
I rolled a crit and he becomes meat paste.

I remembered something.

Years ago, in a game of Shadow Run, a new player grossly misread a situation. It was his first session. In a firefight, a drone swoops in - I had made the effort in advance to explain that it might be unwise to mess with the corporate police, but when did that ever work?

So a drone swoops in. I do explain that it mounts twin multi launchers.

New player jumps onto the roof of a minivan, and opens up with his two SMG's. Now, as things will it, the range on such weapons isn't great. He gets in a few shots, but doesn't kill drone.

Then it's the drone's turn. The range on it's multi launcher is much more impressive. All 6 shots hit. There is zero chance of survival.

Now, let's be clear: I didn't do anything wrong. I explained the danger in advance. He did something that might be described as silly. Even stupid. And his character died for it. And he never showed up again.

But was what he did cool? Hell yea! As a move, I loved it. It's the style of play I want to reward, overall.

So why didn't I just tell him the targeting systems of the missiles went for the van - and let the explosion toss him through the window of one of the surrouinding buildings, emphatically down but not out?

I didn't. It simply didn't occur to me at the time. But I should have. What's there to gain from punishing a player for playing the hero? Isn't that what the game is all about?

Koo Rehtorb
2018-04-16, 05:41 PM
But I should have. What's there to gain from punishing a player for playing the hero? Isn't that what the game is all about?

No? Shadowrun isn't even a little bit about playing the hero.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-17, 01:25 AM
No? Shadowrun isn't even a little bit about playing the hero.

Call it anti-hero then. Same thing. It's definitely not about playing the timid mouse who gets a proper job, and a haircut, and prioritizes a steady income, health insurance and pension.

Delta
2018-04-17, 02:42 AM
Call it anti-hero then. Same thing. It's definitely not about playing the timid mouse who gets a proper job, and a haircut, and prioritizes a steady income, health insurance and pension.

Going by the rules, it's very much about playing the "timid" guy, there's absolutely nothing in the rules encouraging going into open confrontation with your opposition, because in most circumstances, that opposition can almost always escalate matters to the point where the characters cannot compete. Shadowrun as written is very much a game about knowing when to keep your head down and run. (now of course nothing's stopping you from playing it as a game of anti-superheroes, but it's definitely not the default play style)

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-17, 03:43 AM
Going by the rules, it's very much about playing the "timid" guy, there's absolutely nothing in the rules encouraging going into open confrontation with your opposition, because in most circumstances, that opposition can almost always escalate matters to the point where the characters cannot compete. Shadowrun as written is very much a game about knowing when to keep your head down and run. (now of course nothing's stopping you from playing it as a game of anti-superheroes, but it's definitely not the default play style)

Staying in cover and making sure you have better modifiers than the opposition is smart - but it's not 'timid'. Like I said originally, it was certainly silly and possibly even stupid.

But that's entirely beside the point.

The point is that nothing would have been lost if I'd interpreted the rules in a way that allowed the character to survive. There is literally no reason why I wouldn't decide the missiles targeted the van. Nothing at all was gained by killing the character and losing the player. Keeping him alive but hospitalized would have taught him the value of staying in cover. Killing him and having the player leave the game taught him nothing.

Delta
2018-04-17, 03:55 AM
The point is that nothing would have been lost if I'd interpreted the rules in a way that allowed the character to survive.

That was not the point you originally made and a completely different discussion. You simply said (to paraphrase) "Isn't Shadowrun about playing the hero?" and it simply isn't by default.

Some here would argue that there was something that would've been lost, and that would be RAW. The drone had targeted the player, not the van (targeting the van which was most definitely not attacking the drone wouldn't make sense), so having the missiles hit the van instead would have been breaking the rules. Now I personally don't mind the GM breaking the rules here and there especially in situations like this, it was just to make a point that yes, you are losing something there, you might not care about it, but some players would.

What would've been the best solution would have been to talk about in advance how everyone would like to play the game, there's a reason why the "black mirrorshades vs. pink mohawk" discussion for Shadowrun has been going on forever, if the player thought he was playing the action movie hero with a certain amount of script immunity and the GM thinks he's running a game for a group of highly trained professional criminals who know that every stray bullet can be their last, then bad things tend to happen (personally, I'd just have asked the player before jumping on the minivan "Are you sure? That drone has missiles which can easily wipe you out" especially if he's a new player, and then have that discussion after the game)

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-17, 04:09 AM
"Isn't Shadowrun about playing the hero?" and it simply isn't by default.

Increasingly, this is a derail. But let me state more clearly: ALL roleplaying games are about playing the hero. Whether that hero be a hero, antihero or actual villain is unimportant. You play the lead role - not a bystander.

I suggest we simply agree to disagree on this.


Some here would argue that there was something that would've been lost, and that would be RAW. The drone had targeted the player, not the van (targeting the van which was most definitely not attacking the drone wouldn't make sense), so having the missiles hit the van instead would have been breaking the rules. Now I personally don't mind the GM breaking the rules here and there especially in situations like this, it was just to make a point that yes, you are losing something there, you might not care about it, but some players would.

What would've been the best solution would have been to talk about in advance how everyone would like to play the game, there's a reason why the "black mirrorshades vs. pink mohawk" discussion for Shadowrun has been going on forever, if the player thought he was playing the action movie hero with a certain amount of script immunity and the GM thinks he's running a game for a group of highly trained professional criminals who know that every stray bullet can be their last, then bad things tend to happen (personally, I'd just have asked the player before jumping on the minivan "Are you sure? That drone has missiles which can easily wipe you out" especially if he's a new player, and then have that discussion after the game)

Missiles run on targeting software. As do drones, btw, unless they're remote controlled.

Ruling that the targeting mistook the vehicle, not the person, as the attacker, would be 100% justifiable - sure, the only reason for doing that would be to keep the player alive, but it's still 100% justifiable.

I did explain about the game in advance. And I did ask, specifically 'are you sure that's the action you want to perform - you'll be without cover, in plain view of a heavily armed security drone'. I'm not kidding when I say it was silly and quite possibly stupid. He had every warning. Still, nothing was gained.

Gorum
2018-04-17, 06:56 PM
I think I can solve the derailing problem here: Replace "hero" with "protagonists".

That said:

1. Karma runs are about being the good guy, and making a carnage is frowned upon by EVERYONE. In Shadowrun, the system is the BBEG, heroes HAVE to be criminals by nature. Not unlike how the heroes are terrorists in XCOM 2.

2. Shadowrunners do care about health insurance and some about their day jobs. Doc Wagon wouldn't exist.

3. If you need cover, it's because you expect to be shot at. Really good Shadowrunners don't need cover. They need plans, back-up plans, alibis, false identities, surprise and leg work far more than their weapons.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-17, 11:39 PM
1. Karma runs are about being the good guy, and making a carnage is frowned upon by EVERYONE.

3. If you need cover, it's because you expect to be shot at. Really good Shadowrunners don't need cover. They need plans, back-up plans, alibis, false identities, surprise and leg work far more than their weapons.

These are personal views. It's not that I entirely disagree, but that is by no means the only - or the correct - way to play the game.


2. Shadowrunners do care about health insurance and some about their day jobs. Doc Wagon wouldn't exist.

Doc Wagon is, of course, very much like a health insurance. But I disagree. Doc Wagon is the GP component of a D&D Ressurection spell.

Now, this is becoming a discussion about Shadowrun - and I didn't intend that, so I'm bowing out.

Mr Beer
2018-04-18, 12:07 AM
Responding without reading other replies:

1. You crit, that's a hit? I assume player is familiar with the rules, if not explain them...if he's still PISSED that is his problem. Maybe a disconnect between expectations here, you may need to ensure your players know you won't keep them alive if the dice say they die.

2. You know and I know that if you smash your way into a submarine, that will negatively affect the vehicle's performance, maybe the character doesn't know that though. Could just be roleplaying this?

3. "Some things are not affected by poison gas".

Jay R
2018-04-18, 03:25 PM
1. The guy was PISSED at me for "deliberatly killing him", and says that he ain't suppose to die with such a high AC.
"You're right - you ain't. You knew you were low on hit points, but had the opportunity to move back to the cleric to get some more. But you chose not to do that. There is one character I cannot protect you from, and that's you."


2.
PC: I will use my hammer to smash it open.
Me: huh? Huh?? HUH???

"Um - OK. The next few actions will happen very quickly, so tell me your whole plan. If you succeed in breaking this extremely powerful item with your hammer, and you are pulled by the floodwaters into a rapidly filling deathtrap, what will you do next?"


3.
Me: ......They don't seem to be affected by the poison cloud.
Him: But why? It always works!
Me: (How am I suppose to tell him that robot doesn't even have CON stat.)

"Not always. You've never seen it work on anything except living meat. Creatures that don't breathe don't inhale poisonous gases."