Go-to spells for clerics at higher levels

[visitor]

It seems the consensus on this forum is that clerics are very capable melee fighters during the early levels, and in later levels, relying on their spellcasting as full spellcasters.


I don't have experience with high level clerics. So I'm interested: What are your cleric's go-to spells at that level, when cleric melee is definitely overshadowed by martials? Are you upcasting the same bless, spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians? Relying on domain spells? Becoming more support oriented? What have you found your typical role to be in combat?

[Princess]

It seems the consensus on this forum is that clerics are very capable melee fighters during the early levels, and in later levels, relying on their spellcasting as full spellcasters.


I don't have experience with high level clerics. So I'm interested: What are your cleric's go-to spells at that level, when cleric melee is definitely overshadowed by martials? Are you upcasting the same bless, spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians? Relying on domain spells? Becoming more support oriented? What have you found your typical role to be in combat?

Contagion them and watch it improve everyone else's ability to beat the crap out of them. You can get a minimum of three rounds of double damage with 1 fifth level slot.

[DarkKnightJin]

I'm playing a Fighter 1/Death Cleric 3 right now.
Nobody has Extra Attacks yet, so it's all relatively fine. I expect that I will be relying on Spirit Guardians more when I get 3rd level spells.

I honestly tend to not think ahead too much, and let the narrative guide what I do per level.

Though I'm getting access to Steel Wind Strike because I worked with the DM to make a more fitting Domain Spells list.

[stoutstien]

Contagion doesn't kick in till three failed saves but still worth the slot.
Up casted aid is a fine one bc it stacks with thp( or heros feast)
Conjure celestrial can get amazing allies
Anti magic Field can end most high cr fights

[tatsuyashiba]

Heroe’s Feast. One of the best buffs in the game, no concentration required, 24 hour duration. Takes 1k in materials however and an hour to consume. Pop it during your short rest before the boss to give the party:

* immunity to poison and frighten
* advantage wisdom saves
* +2d10 max hitpoints
* cures all disease and poison

Also Aid scales very nicely for those mid-level slots and lasts 8 hours without concentration. Eg 4th level Aid gives three characters plus 15 max HP. Now your wizard/warlock/monk aren’t so squishy. Uber effective on a moon druid if DM rules it applies to animal forms.

[Princess]

Contagion doesn't kick in till three failed saves but still worth the slot.
Up casted aid is a fine one bc it stacks with thp( or heros feast)
Conjure celestrial can get amazing allies
Anti magic Field can end most high cr fights

By RAW it should happen immediately.

[stoutstien]

Raw could go either way. If your dm let's you destroy any encounter with slimey doom go for it. Would make it the most powerful spell per slot ratio in the game

[mephnick]

By RAW it should happen immediately.

Contagion was like..the first thing the designers clarified in the history of the entire universe. Like it may actually be written on a stone tablet buried beneath the earth by a future alien race that traveled into the past to seed the Earth with human life.

[Merudo]

I don't have experience with high level clerics. So I'm interested: What are your cleric's go-to spells at that level, when cleric melee is definitely overshadowed by martials? Are you upcasting the same bless, spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians? Relying on domain spells? Becoming more support oriented? What have you found your typical role to be in combat?

Level 4+ spells of common use for combat are mostly limited to Banishment (level 4), Hero's Feast (level 6), Holy Aura (level 8), & Mass Heal (level 9).

Domain spells of note for level 4-5 are Animate Objects (Forge), Confusion (Knowledge), Destructive Wave (Tempest), and Polymorph (Trickery).

So yeah, you'll mostly be relying on upcasted lower level spells (Bless / Spirit Guardians / Spiritual Weapon) for most of your career.


Also Aid scales very nicely for those mid-level slots and lasts 8 hours without concentration. Eg 4th level Aid gives three characters plus 15 max HP. Now your wizard/warlock/monk aren’t so squishy. Uber effective on a moon druid if DM rules it applies to animal forms.

Don't forget the nifty trick with Aid if you have spell slots left at the end of the day.

1 hour before the end of a long rest, cast Aid at maximum power on yourself and your team. Once the long rest is over 1 hour later, you'll still get all your slots back, but the Aid spell will remain active well into the day.

[Galadhrim]

I tended to use upcasted cleric spells for my concentration (generally bless or spirit guardians) although call lightning off of the domain list did see good use as well. For non-concentration it depended on what was needed for that combat. Destructive wave with maximized Thunder was a particular favorite. At higher levels I used sanctuary much more than I did at lower levels. I always had sanctuary, healing word, revivify, mass healing word, lessor restoration, death ward, and greater restoration prepared. Some of those only saw use once or twice but when they were needed, they turned the fight from loss to victory.

If everyone else was taking care of themselves adequately I tended to go with spirit guardians on a 4th level and spiritual weapon in a 4th level slot. After that it was booming blade + spiritual weapon for single target with maxed shatter or destructive wave for aoe.

[Snowbluff]

Bestow curse is a pretty nice spell to land, in a similar vein to contagion. The effect is weaker, but if you cast it with a 5th level slot, you don't need to concentrate on it. :3

[Legendairy]

Upcast banishment, multiple targets, charisma saves, great for low cha high cr mook types.


Well any actually that don’t have charisma saves. I have seen 17th+ clerics wreck encounters cause they vanish all the cr 14-16 mooks easily and can even vanish a lot of big bad types cause even with high charisma they fail the save, assuming legendary auto saves are used.

[MaxWilson]

Don't forget the nifty trick with Aid if you have spell slots left at the end of the day.

1 hour before the end of a long rest, cast Aid at maximum power on yourself and your team. Once the long rest is over 1 hour later, you'll still get all your slots back, but the Aid spell will remain active well into the day.

As I read the rules, spellcasting is a strenuous activity not compatible with resting.


A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, fighting, casting Spells, or similar adventuring activity—the characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

You could read it as "at least one hour of (walking/fighting/casting spells/etc.)" or "(at least one hour of walking)/fighting/casting spells/etc.", but given that (1) one hour of fighting or casting spells is a ludicrously long time, (2) this is a subclause talking about what counts as "a period of strenuous activity" and it would be silly to leave the time period vague if all of the activities in the period needed to last for an hour to count, I judge that the rule intends to say "(at least one hour of walking)/fighting/casting spells/etc."

If it were otherwise, it should have been written "If the rest is interrupted by at least one hour of strenuous activity--walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity" so as not to be redundant or unclear.

Conclusion: casting Aid, or any other spell, cannot be done while resting.

[DarkKnightJin]

As I read the rules, spellcasting is a strenuous activity not compatible with resting.



You could read it as "at least one hour of (walking/fighting/casting spells/etc.)" or "(at least one hour of walking)/fighting/casting spells/etc.", but given that (1) one hour of fighting or casting spells is a ludicrously long time, (2) this is a subclause talking about what counts as "a period of strenuous activity" and it would be silly to leave the time period vague if all of the activities in the period needed to last for an hour to count, I judge that the rule intends to say "(at least one hour of walking)/fighting/casting spells/etc."

If it were otherwise, it should have been written "If the rest is interrupted by at least one hour of strenuous activity--walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity" so as not to be redundant or unclear.

Conclusion: casting Aid, or any other spell, cannot be done while resting.

I can see where you are coming from. I also think that someone casting a single spell at the 7 hour mark of their 8 hour rest needing to start all over, is kinda bull manure.
If they start abusing it and pulling coffeelock shenanigans.. then you're in the clear for punishing them. If it happens every so often, like before a day where they have good reason to expect a tough fight? I'd let it slide.
Just be sure you inform them on that they can't expect that tactic to work every in-game day.

[Merudo]

You could read it as "at least one hour of (walking/fighting/casting spells/etc.)" or "(at least one hour of walking)/fighting/casting spells/etc.", but given that (1) one hour of fighting or casting spells is a ludicrously long time, (2) this is a subclause talking about what counts as "a period of strenuous activity" and it would be silly to leave the time period vague if all of the activities in the period needed to last for an hour to count, I judge that the rule intends to say "(at least one hour of walking)/fighting/casting spells/etc."

If it were otherwise, it should have been written "If the rest is interrupted by at least one hour of strenuous activity--walking, fighting, casting spells, or similar adventuring activity" so as not to be redundant or unclear.

Conclusion: casting Aid, or any other spell, cannot be done while resting.

Sage Advice (here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/19/casting-a-spell-during-long-rest-breaks-long-rest/), here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/02/1-hour-interruption), here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/20/will-participating-in-1-round-of-combat-break-a-shortlong-rest/), here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487280500902342656)) disagrees with your interpretation.

I agree the rule could have been written better.

[MaxWilson]

Sage Advice (here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/19/casting-a-spell-during-long-rest-breaks-long-rest/), here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/02/1-hour-interruption), here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/08/20/will-participating-in-1-round-of-combat-break-a-shortlong-rest/), here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/487280500902342656)) disagrees with your interpretation.

I agree the rule could have been written better.

Definitely. The rule as written makes a lot more sense than the rule as intended.

I think the rule as written is still quite clear though. This wouldn't be the first time that Jeremy Crawford made an outright rules error. (E.g. thinking that Jump spell increases movement speed, or ruling in favor of Greatberry.)

[visitor]

Thank you everyone!

I was getting the impression that clerics would mothball their maces and hang with the squishies casting in the back at higher levels. But it sounds more like their playstyle doesn’t change as much as I thought. Just amped up (like everyone else)

[Chugger]

By RAW it should happen immediately.

I'm pretty sure contagion was amended not to work immediately - at an official level. It's pretty much insta-death if it is immediate.

A cleric used to be "the healer" and is still "a healer", but healing is not quite as important in 5e. Of course it is, but not like it was in earlier versions.

Because you hit zero and are unconscious, not "dead".

Clerics can save people form all sorts of conditions. It's not so much any one thing clerics have - it's their big choice of very useful spells - take Silence - which bards also get iirc - but Silence can be amazing in the right situation - then you don't cast it again for a while - but you always want it loaded. I've run into players who play clerics and don't even know clerics have it. Daylight ends darkness, which can be a drag if used against the party. Removing curses and all those nasty conditions (charmed, cursed, petrified and so on). Rezzing - clerics are the only ones really good at it (a bard can steal it - iirc druids get some sort of ok rez at higher lvls - but clerics get early access to all the rez spells). Turn undead ... domain abilities - banishment.

[Princess]

Contagion was like..the first thing the designers clarified in the history of the entire universe. Like it may actually be written on a stone tablet buried beneath the earth by a future alien race that traveled into the past to seed the Earth with human life.

Well that's extremely inconvenient. Because it isn't in the PHB errata or any FAQ I can find.


Found a link elsewhere to a twitter comment my one of the designers. That's far from official or convenient at all

[OvisCaedo]

Well that's extremely inconvenient. Because it isn't in the PHB errata or any FAQ I can find.


Found a link elsewhere to a twitter comment my one of the designers. That's far from official or convenient at all

Yyyyeah. JC's reasoning for not bothering to include it in the errata pretty much equated to "well i saw people doing it right so we didn't bother including a clarification". Though looking at a further reply chain, it looks like he admitted that after the fact it seemed like they probably SHOULD have errata'd it. But I guess they just didn't want to keep doing more passes at errata.

[Princess]

Yyyyeah. JC's reasoning for not bothering to include it in the errata pretty much equated to "well i saw people doing it right so we didn't bother including a clarification". Though looking at a further reply chain, it looks like he admitted that after the fact it seemed like they probably SHOULD have errata'd it. But I guess they just didn't want to keep doing more passes at errata.

Yeah, I wasn't familiar with the "official" interpretation until just now because I've seen it used the other way in play a few times and that's how I read it as well.

That said, I've seen a lot of people complain that most high level cleric spells aren't that interesting

[bronzemountain]

It seems the consensus on this forum is that clerics are very capable melee fighters during the early levels, and in later levels, relying on their spellcasting as full spellcasters.


I don't have experience with high level clerics. So I'm interested: What are your cleric's go-to spells at that level, when cleric melee is definitely overshadowed by martials? Are you upcasting the same bless, spiritual weapon and spiritual guardians? Relying on domain spells? Becoming more support oriented? What have you found your typical role to be in combat?

Currently playing an 18th level Tempest cleric. Here's my experience with spells.

Heroes' Feast is, as mentioned, exceptional. But I would file that under preparation, rather than in-the-mix fun times. And when I think of operating as a spellcaster, I like to think about what I'm doing in the moment.

As a cleric, you have to remember that nearly all of your best spells are concentration, and so you want to think about staging those spells across encounters (assuming your GM is running a reasonably challenging adventuring day).

So my concentration hierarchy, from 'light encounter' to 'oh my god death' goes Bless (1), Spirit Guardians (3), Holy Weapon (5), Holy Aura (8). Holy Weapon is there because I've got a fighter and a ranger in the party, and between fighter attacks or hunter volley, I can rack up a ton of free damage on the back of their attacks.

There are a few really great long-lasting non-concentration buffs to keep in mind, based on situation. That list is Aid (2), Protection from Poison (2), Death Ward (4), and Freedom of Movement (4). Aid drops off a cliff pretty quickly, in my experience, but Freedom of Movement is a lifesaver.

Healing-wise, I've found that I more or less ignore my low level heals now. They're just too damn small to matter, even upcast. I rely much more on well-timed Heal than I do on Mass Healing Word, and Mass Heal is legitimately hilarious.

Finally, damage. Clerics are not good at this, unless they have domain help. Destructive Wave (I'm playing a Tempest Cleric) is great, especially because I can maximize half its damage. But, in my experience, the best way to create pain is to cast Spirit Guardians as a level 7 spell. Two reasons to do this. One, Clerics have really crappy 7th level spell options (the only level that's worse is 9th level spells, which has only one worthwhile spell). Two, 7d8 constant churning slowing damage is fun for the whole family.

Contagion, as mentioned by others, is great, but I would hold onto that as a Legendary Resist remover. On rare occasions, you'll get the effect off, and then it's party time. But otherwise, it's there to strip those auto-saves.

Oh! And take Dispel Magic. I adventure with a Bard and a Wizard and they are just too precious to take Dispel. Someone's gotta do it! And upcast it, because Clerics are generally dumb and don't have Arcana. Maybe that's just my group. Ahem.

In general, high level encounters mean (1) Bigger numbers [therefore small rolls count less], (2) More status effects, (3) Legendary resists. So plan for that.

Hope this helps!

[bronzemountain]

That said, I've seen a lot of people complain that most high level cleric spells aren't that interesting

That complaint is 100% on point. There are a few supremely useful/powerful high level cleric spells, but past 5th level spells, you start getting into '1 good spell per spell level' territory. It's a wasteland out there.

Edit: My easy solution to this would be to add a single domain spell for each of 6-9th level spells to all the domains. So, for Tempest, perhaps Chain Lightning, Whirlwind, Tsunami, and Storm of Vengeance.

[visitor]

Thank you!
Appreciate hearing your experiences

[bronzemountain]

Thank you!
Appreciate hearing your experiences

My pleasure! There's a big gap between most people's play experiences (level 1-10) and level 20 white room theory-crafting. So there's not a lot of discussion around what it's actually like to play in levels 14+ (spoiler: it's super fun!).

[Merudo]

Contagion, as mentioned by others, is great, but I would hold onto that as a Legendary Resist remover. On rare occasions, you'll get the effect off, and then it's party time. But otherwise, it's there to strip those auto-saves.


Not sure how Contagion is a "Legendary Resist remover", or how it strips auto-saves.

A creature won't use it's Legendary Resistance on Contagion unless the failed save it would be the third failure.

[Chugger]

None of the cleric spells are really all that interesting, but they're solid and dependable - and absolutely necessary to undo the pewp-avalanche-of-nastiness that often is DnD. Clerics are not the flashy guys out there taking all the credit for the cool stuff. But they're the reason everyone is still alive, uncursed and with no limbs or eyeballs missing. Just grasp what a cleric is supposed to be and see if that's you - and if not hope and pray someone else you play with will be a good, solid, dependable cleric for your group. A group without a good cleric is a sad thing indeed. It can function - but it's gonna hit a snag sooner or later and ultimately need to hire a cleric or the DM will need to have mercy and lend them an NPC cleric or something. It was that way in the 1970s - and it's still true with 5e today.

[Princess]

That complaint is 100% on point. There are a few supremely useful/powerful high level cleric spells, but past 5th level spells, you start getting into '1 good spell per spell level' territory. It's a wasteland out there.

Edit: My easy solution to this would be to add a single domain spell for each of 6-9th level spells to all the domains. So, for Tempest, perhaps Chain Lightning, Whirlwind, Tsunami, and Storm of Vengeance.

^If I ever move to Maryland, I want to know where you play

[Legendairy]

Our level 17+ go to concentration for a fight with one big bad and a few strong mooks is banishment, upcast, gets multiple targets and is a cha save, not all big mook types have any charisma worth mentioning.

[Citan]

None of the cleric spells are really all that interesting, but they're solid and dependable - and absolutely necessary to undo the pewp-avalanche-of-nastiness that often is DnD. Clerics are not the flashy guys out there taking all the credit for the cool stuff. But they're the reason everyone is still alive, uncursed and with no limbs or eyeballs missing. Just grasp what a cleric is supposed to be and see if that's you - and if not hope and pray someone else you play with will be a good, solid, dependable cleric for your group. A group without a good cleric is a sad thing indeed. It can function - but it's gonna hit a snag sooner or later and ultimately need to hire a cleric or the DM will need to have mercy and lend them an NPC cleric or something. It was that way in the 1970s - and it's still true with 5e today.
Amen to that. :smallbiggrin:

[Ogre Mage]

Holy Aura is an incredible protection spell.

[Waazraath]

None of the cleric spells are really all that interesting, but they're solid and dependable - and absolutely necessary to undo the pewp-avalanche-of-nastiness that often is DnD. Clerics are not the flashy guys out there taking all the credit for the cool stuff. But they're the reason everyone is still alive, uncursed and with no limbs or eyeballs missing. Just grasp what a cleric is supposed to be and see if that's you - and if not hope and pray someone else you play with will be a good, solid, dependable cleric for your group. A group without a good cleric is a sad thing indeed. It can function - but it's gonna hit a snag sooner or later and ultimately need to hire a cleric or the DM will need to have mercy and lend them an NPC cleric or something. It was that way in the 1970s - and it's still true with 5e today.

+1. Though, to be fair, Druid and Bard also have access to the relevant spells (lesser and greater restoration, regenerate, heal), and a wizard has remove curse, and stuff like the Divine Soul and Celestial Warlock are a thing. On the other hand: I've never seen anyone advocating a Bard to use his precious few spells known and magical secrets on spells like lesser and greater restoration, heal, remove curse and regenerate. So it's mostly theoretical that a Bard can fullfil a cleric's role.

In general, you are totally correct though. You need a party member that can fulfill the role that you describe. And the Cleric is most perfectly suited for that role, also at the high levels. Greater restoration for example is a great spell, but not flashy enough to get the credits.

[MaxWilson]

On the other hand: I've never seen anyone advocating a Bard to use his precious few spells known and magical secrets on spells like lesser and greater restoration, heal, remove curse and regenerate. So it's mostly theoretical that a Bard can fullfil a cleric's role.

That's probably because Lesser and Greater Restoration and Regenerate are already on the bard list, and Heal isn't a very good healing spell in the first place so people advocate for Aura of Vitality (or now Healing Spirit) instead. That leaves Remove Curse, which is also available to paladins, warlocks and wizards--if people aren't advocating for that it's probably because they consider the spell easy to get in other ways or straight-up unimportant in 5E play. (I lean towards the latter explanation. Cursed items don't seem to be very common in 5E.)

[Waazraath]

That's probably because Lesser and Greater Restoration and Regenerate are already on the bard list, and Heal isn't a very good healing spell in the first place so people advocate for Aura of Vitality (or now Healing Spirit) instead. That leaves Remove Curse, which is also available to paladins, warlocks and wizards--if people aren't advocating for that it's probably because they consider the spell easy to get in other ways or straight-up unimportant in 5E play. (I lean towards the latter explanation. Cursed items don't seem to be very common in 5E.)

Sigh. No, it doesn't. Read my post again. Espescially the "to use his precious few spells known" part. People sometimes seem to forget that (unlike,let's say, Cleric and Druid), a Bard only knows a few spells.

[MaxWilson]

+1. Though, to be fair, Druid and Bard also have access to the relevant spells (lesser and greater restoration, regenerate, heal), and a wizard has remove curse, and stuff like the Divine Soul and Celestial Warlock are a thing. On the other hand: I've never seen anyone advocating a Bard to use his precious few spells known and magical secrets on spells like lesser and greater restoration, heal, remove curse and regenerate. So it's mostly theoretical that a Bard can fullfil a cleric's role.

In general, you are totally correct though. You need a party member that can fulfill the role that you describe. And the Cleric is most perfectly suited for that role, also at the high levels. Greater restoration for example is a great spell, but not flashy enough to get the credits.

(Italics in original.)


That's probably because Lesser and Greater Restoration and Regenerate are already on the bard list, and Heal isn't a very good healing spell in the first place so people advocate for Aura of Vitality (or now Healing Spirit) instead. That leaves Remove Curse, which is also available to paladins, warlocks and wizards--if people aren't advocating for that it's probably because they consider the spell easy to get in other ways or straight-up unimportant in 5E play. (I lean towards the latter explanation. Cursed items don't seem to be very common in 5E.)


Sigh. No, it doesn't. Read my post again. Espescially the "to use his precious few spells known" part. People sometimes seem to forget that (unlike,let's say, Cleric and Druid), a Bard only knows a few spells.

I read your post, but now I'm even more confused why you mentioned magical secrets at all. If you'd just said, "I've never seen anyone advocating that a bard spend his precious spells known on XYZ" I would have just said, "Huh. That's weird. I see bards taking those spells all the time." The thing that caught my attention was you observing that no one ever spends magical secrets on those spells and stressing the magical secret cost. It looked like you were claiming that Bards have access to those spells only via magical secrets, and I didn't want any readers to walk away thinking that was the case.

Why did you mention magical secrets at all? Was it just for Remove Curse?

Bottom line: bards substituting for clerics with great success is absolutely a thing in 5E play.

[Waazraath]

I read your post, but now I'm even more confused why you mentioned magical secrets at all. If you'd just said, "I've never seen anyone advocating that a bard spend his precious spells known on XYZ" I would have just said, "Huh. That's weird. I see bards taking those spells all the time." The thing that caught my attention was you observing that no one ever spends magical secrets on those spells. It looked like you were claiming that Bards have access to those spells only via magical secrets, and I didn't want any readers to walk away thinking that was the case.

Why did you mention magical secrets at all? Was it just for Remove Curse?

The spells mentioned are examples. As for spells that Bards need magical secrets for, there are:

- remove curse (already discussed - and imo you can't just assume some other party member will have it, and disregard it because of that. Not every party has a wizard or pally, and a warlock also needs to spend a precious spell known for it).
- Heal - you stated as a fact that it 'isn't a very good healing spell', but it isn't fact. It's an opinion, and a flawed one as far as I'm concerned. Aura of Vitality and Healing Spirit are good spells, but have a totally different function. They are, mostly, efficient out of combat healing spells. Heal is a healing spell for during combat. If somebody goes down, or loses 100 hp, and it seems combat will take some rounds to be resolved, you really don't want to rely on a (concentration!) spell to restore 1d6 or 2d6 hp. You want to bring somebody really back into the fight. That's the purpose of Heal. This guide was written for 3.5, but most of it is still valid for 5e: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6656.0
- Mass heal - late level, but great spell
- Mass healing word - situational, but very good if 2 or 3 party members get down against (for example) a bad Area of Effect spell.

Btw: also for Healing spirit or Aura of vitality, a Bard needs to spend a Magic Secrets slot.

[MaxWilson]

+1. Though, to be fair, Druid and Bard also have access to the relevant spells (lesser and greater restoration, regenerate, heal), and a wizard has remove curse, and stuff like the Divine Soul and Celestial Warlock are a thing. On the other hand: I've never seen anyone advocating a Bard to use his precious few spells known and magical secrets on spells like lesser and greater restoration, heal, remove curse and regenerate. So it's mostly theoretical that a Bard can fullfil a cleric's role.

In general, you are totally correct though. You need a party member that can fulfill the role that you describe. And the Cleric is most perfectly suited for that role, also at the high levels. Greater restoration for example is a great spell, but not flashy enough to get the credits.

(Italics in original.)


That's probably because Lesser and Greater Restoration and Regenerate are already on the bard list, and Heal isn't a very good healing spell in the first place so people advocate for Aura of Vitality (or now Healing Spirit) instead. That leaves Remove Curse, which is also available to paladins, warlocks and wizards--if people aren't advocating for that it's probably because they consider the spell easy to get in other ways or straight-up unimportant in 5E play. (I lean towards the latter explanation. Cursed items don't seem to be very common in 5E.)


Sigh. No, it doesn't. Read my post again. Espescially the "to use his precious few spells known" part. People sometimes seem to forget that (unlike,let's say, Cleric and Druid), a Bard only knows a few spells.




I read your post, but now I'm even more confused why you mentioned magical secrets at all. If you'd just said, "I've never seen anyone advocating that a bard spend his precious spells known on XYZ" I would have just said, "Huh. That's weird. I see bards taking those spells all the time." The thing that caught my attention was you observing that no one ever spends magical secrets on those spells and stressing the magical secret cost. It looked like you were claiming that Bards have access to those spells only via magical secrets, and I didn't want any readers to walk away thinking that was the case.

Why did you mention magical secrets at all? Was it just for Remove Curse?

Bottom line: bards substituting for clerics with great success is absolutely a thing in 5E play.


The spells mentioned are examples. As for spells that Bards need magical secrets for, there are:

- remove curse (already discussed - and imo you can't just assume some other party member will have it, and disregard it because of that. Not every party has a wizard or pally, and a warlock also needs to spend a precious spell known for it).
- Heal - you stated as a fact that it 'isn't a very good healing spell', but it isn't fact. It's an opinion, and a flawed one as far as I'm concerned. Aura of Vitality and Healing Spirit are good spells, but have a totally different function. They are, mostly, efficient out of combat healing spells. Heal is a healing spell for during combat. If somebody goes down, or loses 100 hp, and it seems combat will take some rounds to be resolved, you really don't want to rely on a (concentration!) spell to restore 1d6 or 2d6 hp. You want to bring somebody really back into the fight. That's the purpose of Heal. This guide was written for 3.5, but most of it is still valid for 5e: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6656.0
- Mass heal - late level, but great spell
- Mass healing word - situational, but very good if 2 or 3 party members get down against (for example) a bad Area of Effect spell.

Btw: also for Healing spirit or Aura of vitality, a Bard needs to spend a Magic Secrets slot.

They're examples of what? I'm still at a loss why you got snippy with me for thinking you were talking Magical Secrets just because you emphasized with italics magical secrets. It's no mystery why people don't recommend Remove Curse as a magical secret for bards, but that's really weak evidence for why it is "mostly theoretical" that a bard can fill a cleric's role.

I'm not going to bother translating your cited 3.5E guide into 5E terms. If you think it has something valuable and applicable to say, make that case yourself. I'm not going to make it for you.

Bottom line: it's not theoretical that bards can fill the cleric role in 5E. It happens all the time and it works just fine. (IMO, better than a cleric would, but to be fair I haven't seen that many 5E clerics in actual play because bards and druids do it better.)

[Waazraath]

They're examples of what?

Eh... this discussion started with you replying to a point I make. Maybe examples of the point I made in the first place? The one where I quoted Chugger? But if you want, I can summarize it, it's about healing and removing (negative) status effects.



I'm not going to bother translating your cited 3.5E guide into 5E terms. If you think it has something valuable and applicable to say, make that case yourself. I'm not going to make it for you.


Dude, chill down. And again, read. I made my point in the post you quote, about Heal, and you ignore the content. Which you don't, which is telling. The link is extra, you really should be able to reply to the point "Heal has a different fuction than Healing Spirit and Aura of Vitality" without it.

And you talk about "snippy". Seriously, maybe instead of using a a disclaimer that "you don't mean to be agressive" just try not to be? As for "make your case yourself", now please click that link and see who wrote the guide. Before being snarky about a link, at least bother to click it.



Bottom line: it's not theoretical that bards can fill the cleric role in 5E. It happens all the time and it works just fine. (IMO, better than a cleric would, but to be fair I haven't seen that many 5E clerics in actual play because bards and druids do it better.)

.... so.... you haven't seen the Cleric in play, but that's because you know Bards and Druids do it better? That's just... great. Very convincing.

That a Druid can fulfill this role, I have no doubt. But for Bards, this sucks. It would require:
- Healing Word
- Lesser Restoration
- Greater Restoration
- Remove Curse (magical secrets)
- Mass Healing word (magical secrets)
- Heal (magical secrets)
- Mass Heal (magical secrets)
- Regenerate

Without Healing Spirit (assuming the party has enough out of combat healing already) this is over 1/3rd of all Bard spells known and half of its magical secrets. This is a huge cost, just to fulfill a role that any Cleric can fullfill anyway. You can, in theory, but I've never seen somebody do it, neither aspire to it. And of course, you can skip a few of the above spells, but than you're not as good in fullfilling this role, are you? Besides, this is ignoring some of the lesser or more situational spells in this department (cure, mass cure, protection from poison, protection from evil and good) that are also on the Cleric list. For free.


Bottom line: these types of spells are great to have, but aren't always useful. Which isn't a problem for a Cleric (or Druid) since they know all their spells. But for a Bard, they have a huge opportunity cost. So yes, in theory a Bard can fulfill this kind of support (healing / removing status effects).

[MaxWilson]

And you talk about "snippy". Seriously, maybe instead of using a a disclaimer that "you don't mean to be agressive" just try not to be? As for "make your case yourself", now please click that link and see who wrote the guide. Before being snarky about a link, at least bother to click it.

I did. What I remember is that it starts off acknowledging that in-combat healing is usually futile, but that when you need it, you need it, e.g. because someone is at negative HP. (Obviously that applies less in 5E because of death saves, pop-up healing, and easy access to spells that overcome death with no long-term consequences and sometimes no consequences at all besides the expense of casting the spell.) It then goes on to say that there are two ways to do it: heal a lot (less true for Heal in 5E than in 3.5E, at least according to the 3E SRD I checked) or heal without using as many actions (i.e. a bonus action like Healing Spirit).

I think we got off the wrong foot because somehow this has turned into an argument where each of us perceives the other (apparently) as trying to start an argument. So I'm going to skip the discussion on the pros and cons of Heal relative to Aura of Vitality or Healing Spirit. Clearly you think Heal is overall better and I think Aura of Vitality is overall better, but presumably we'd both agree that being able to cheaply keep your whole party near or at max HP and heal 2d6+ on a bonus action in combat is a big advantage, and that being able to revive someone from 0 HP to 70 HP in one round without spending concentration is also sometimes a big advantage. We just don't agree on which one is more of an advantage how often, probably due to differences in playstyle.

I came here to say that bards and to a lesser extent druids do just fine in the "party healer" role, and that isn't theoretical at all. You won't see most people suggesting cleric spells for magical secrets, but that's because the bard's organic spell list already has some pretty good condition-healing spells, and the best HP-healing spells aren't on the cleric list at all. You will occasionally see people taking Revivify or Death Ward as magical secrets though, and I enthusiastically agree with you, Waazrath, that the limited spells known of bards does force some genuinely painful tradeoffs relative to prepared-spell casters like wizards, paladins, druids, and clerics. (And wizards still face tradeoffs in spells-learnable, though the bard has it much worse.) That doesn't make bard as healer a "mostly-theoretical" niche though. Frankly the concerns you're raising about bards seem to be what's mostly theoretical.


That a Druid can fulfill this role, I have no doubt. But for Bards, this . It would require:
- Healing Word
- Lesser Restoration
- Greater Restoration
[S]- Remove Curse (magical secrets)
- Mass Healing word (magical secrets)
- Heal (magical secrets)
- Mass Heal (magical secrets)
- Regenerate

Fixed that for you. Add in Raise Dead though and Aura of Vitality/Healing Spirit (magical secret) and maybe Death Ward (magical secret), for a total of seven spells and two magical secrets, thus leaving about 2/3 of the bard's spell list and magical secrets free for other things like Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Polymorph, Confusion, Forcecage, True Polymorph, Symbol, Holy Aura (magical secret), and Wish. Revivify (magical secret) too if you really want to cleric hard.

Combine those spells with a little warlock 2 dip for Agonizing Repelling Blast or Agonizing Eldritch Spear and the party has all the best parts of having a cleric around[1] but it also has someone who can actually deal damage in a fight and cast useful control spells. Instead of giving up a full PC to get cleric stuff, you're only giving up about half of a PC, and you have better out-of-combat healing than a cleric can provide too.

[1] Bless can come from practically anywhere, and it's not always a good use of concentration anyway.

That is all.

[Waazraath]

I did. What I remember is that it starts off acknowledging that in-combat healing is usually futile, but that when you need it, you need it, e.g. because someone is at negative HP. (Obviously that applies less in 5E because of death saves, pop-up healing, and easy access to spells that overcome death with no long-term consequences and sometimes no consequences at all besides the expense of casting the spell.) It then goes on to say that there are two ways to do it: heal a lot (less true for Heal in 5E than in 3.5E, at least according to the 3E SRD I checked) or heal without using as many actions (i.e. a bonus action like Healing Spirit).

Adequate summary. Though you're too optmistic about death being not so much of a thread in 5e. If somebody goes down early in a fight, you might loose the fight, the entire party can be wiped out, or the body can be gone. Plenty of consequences.



I think we got off the wrong foot because somehow this has turned into an argument where each of us perceives the other (apparently) as trying to start an argument. So I'm going to skip the discussion on the pros and cons of Heal relative to Aura of Vitality or Healing Spirit. Clearly you think Heal is overall better and I think Aura of Vitality is overall better, but presumably we'd both agree that being able to cheaply keep your whole party near or at max HP and heal 2d6+ on a bonus action in combat is a big advantage, and that being able to revive someone from 0 HP to 70 HP in one round without spending concentration is also sometimes a big advantage. We just don't agree on which one is more of an advantage how often, probably due to differences in playstyle.


Fair enough. Both are good.



I came here to say that bards and to a lesser extent druids do just fine in the "party healer" role, and that isn't theoretical at all. You won't see most people suggesting cleric spells for magical secrets, but that's because the bard's organic spell list already has some pretty good condition-healing spells, and the best HP-healing spells aren't on the cleric list at all. You will occasionally see people taking Revivify or Death Ward as magical secrets though, and I enthusiastically agree with you, Waazrath, that the limited spells known of bards does force some genuinely painful tradeoffs relative to prepared-spell casters like wizards, paladins, druids, and clerics. (And wizards still face tradeoffs in spells-learnable, though the bard has it much worse.) That doesn't make bard as healer a "mostly-theoretical" niche though. Frankly the concerns you're raising about bards seem to be what's mostly theoretical.

Again: I've never seen somebody in actual play trying to fulfill that role with the Bard. It can be done in theory, but exactly because the painful choices you have to make for a Bard to make this work, when this role is needed in a party somebody plays a Druid or Cleric. But ymmv, maybe other folks do.


Fixed that for you. Add in Raise Dead though and Aura of Vitality/Healing Spirit (magical secret) and maybe Death Ward (magical secret), for a total of seven spells and two magical secrets, thus leaving about 2/3 of the bard's spell list and magical secrets free for other things like Hypnotic Pattern, Fear, Polymorph, Confusion, Forcecage, True Polymorph, Symbol, Holy Aura (magical secret), and Wish. Revivify (magical secret) too if you really want to cleric hard.

Ymmv. I find it a bit presumteous to say this 'fixed' it. But yes, you can come to another selection of spells. Point stands, if you get cursed and you have a cleric in the party, it's no problem. If you have bard in that role that didn't pick Remove Curse (something I understand), you have a big problem. Same with situational spells like Mass Healing Word. If needed (see scenario I described above) it's great to have it, but no Bard will pick it. That makes it a (sometimes poor) surrogate imo.



Combine those spells with a little warlock 2 dip for Agonizing Repelling Blast or Agonizing Eldritch Spear and the party has all the best parts of having a cleric around[1] but it also has someone who can actually deal damage in a fight and cast useful control spells. Instead of giving up a full PC to get cleric stuff, you're only giving up about half of a PC, and you have better out-of-combat healing than a cleric can provide too.

[1] Bless can come from practically anywhere, and it's not always a good use of concentration anyway.

That is all.

And here you make in my opinion a grave thinking error and come to a false conclusion. You turn the argument from "A Bard can be a good substitute for a part of the Cleric role", which you can argue, to "the Bard is a superior version of the Cleric", which is, frankly, bollocks.

Yeah, a Bard can fullfill a part of the role a cleric (or druid) usually has: I think it's not worth it, and mostly will be done in theory, but ymmv. But to argue that with a little investment it "has all the best parts of having a cleric around" simply shows you lack experience playing clerics. You narrow the class down to "bless" + healing and removing status effects. That's ridiculous.

The base cleric can be a:
- very strong buffer (without Bless: Holy Weapon, Death Ward, Aid, Heroes feast, Guidance, Guiding Bolt, Holy Aura,protection from energy)
- very strong debuffer (Blindness/Deafness, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians)
- strong battlefield controll (Spirit Guardians, Blade Barrier, Banishment)
- infomation gatherer (Divination, Augery, Scrying, Legend Lore, locate creature)
- has other usefull, potential interesting spells (Gate, antimagic field, Etherealness, planar ally, conjure celestial, animate dead, etc. etc.)

Based on domain, it can also be:
- good (secondary or even primary) melee fighter (tempest, war, forge)
- area of effect blaster (light, tempest)
- an even better info gatherer (knowledge)

It has a very strong chasis for a full caster (medium or heavy armor, shield, d8), and over all a very good action economy (many bonus actions and sometimes reactions).

To suggest a Bard can replace all the best part of the class is just as nonsensical as
1) defining the bard as "that class that is good as skills"
2) saying that a half-elf knowledge cleric, with the prodigy feat and the guidance cantrip and enhance ability, maybe with a Rogue dip, is just as good or better with skills.
3) and it thus has "the best part of the Bard class.

[djreynolds]

I like inflict wounds, its always nice. 3d10 and can be upcasted.
Word of recall is nice
Planar Ally can come in handy
Blade barrier, its nice versus demon types who have resistance to elements like fire

[bronzemountain]

^If I ever move to Maryland, I want to know where you play

Hah, now that is high flattery indeed! Thank you.
Of course, I currently live in Singapore, just to make things that much harder.

[bronzemountain]

I like inflict wounds, its always nice. 3d10 and can be upcasted.
Word of recall is nice
Planar Ally can come in handy
Blade barrier, its nice versus demon types who have resistance to elements like fire

By the time you're high levels, Toll the Bell and Sacred Flame are already doing more damage than Inflict Wounds (4d8 and 4d8/4d12 at 17th level, with bonus damage if you're a pew-pew domain cleric).

Planar Ally does, indeed, have some good utility if your party has the gold. Depending on campaign setup and GM style, it can be quite a defining spell.

Blade Barrier can be nice, but you're better off upcasting Spirit Guardians, which gives you a choice between Radiant and Necrotic and has better control opportunities.

Someone mentioned that Contagion isn't a great legendary resist burner because it's only the last save that counts. That's a fair point, but I still think it creates a strategic dilemma for the GM. Sure, they can ignore every failed save except for the last one, but since it's basically a countdown, they're forced to consider whether they're going to end up facing that last save WITHOUT legendary resists (because, of course, contagion isn't the only thing you're throwing on there). And the consequences for Contagion are hella nasty.