You get 1 (Enchantment) Spell in RL! (Also PF)

[Xar Zarath]

So in honour of one of my previous threads that I started, here goes...


you wake up and suddenly you can cast 1 spell of your own personal choice. The spell is from the Enchantment school only. Either DND 3.5e or PF is applicable but only 1 spell, NOT 1 spell from each.

Spell cast follows any somatic and/or verbal component but ignores xp and material component.

Which spell do you choose and why?

*I'll reserve my own answer for...uh...purposes:smallbiggrin:

[flappeercraft]

Monstrous Thrall for obvious reasons.

[Nifft]

Mindrape.

Standard action memory rebuilding.

If used for non-evil purposes, it makes you the best mind therapist.

[Uncle Pine]

Mindrape.

Standard action memory rebuilding.

If used for non-evil purposes, it makes you the best mind therapist.

It's also the single best enchantment spell in the game. I second this choice.

Also this is basically the premise of The Invention of Lying.

[khadgar567]

third for mindrape as well

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will take Charm Monster.

Now everyone is my friend :)

I will not make them do stuff, they will help me when they want(that way I will never lose at the Cha check).

[heavyfuel]

Seconding Monsther Thrall

While Mindrape is much more powerful, there's a pretty big problem with it.


The caster enters the mind of a creature, learning everything that creature knows.

While this may sound good at first glance, think about the consequences this can have. You learn EVERYTHING. You'd start confusing your real memories with other people's and you might experience second-hand trauma. It's just too unsure what will happen with you after using it, especially if you use it multiple times.

[DavidSh]

If you mean I get to cast the spell once per day, over a period of years, I like Psychic Surgery from Pathfinder. I could build up quite the psychoanalytic practice, especially since you dropped the expensive material component requirement.

If I don't want a new career, Toilsome Chant looks good.

If I only get to cast the spell once ever, Memorize Page looks useful. A couple of weeks ago I would have said Delay Pain, but I'm feeling better now.

[Nifft]

While this may sound good at first glance, think about the consequences this can have. You learn EVERYTHING. The spell does say this, yes.


You'd start confusing your real memories with other people's and you might experience second-hand trauma. The spell does NOT say this.

There's no negative effect listed in the spell's text, so the bad thing you think could happen -- that bad thing will not happen.

Maybe you learn everything during the spell's instantaneous effect, so you can pick & choose what the target retains, but you don't retain everything afterwards.

Maybe you do retain everything, but it's not a problem because magic.


It's better to try to figure out why the rules could work, rather than imagine that they don't work and then pile on fictional consequences.

[JeenLeen]

My issue with Mindrape would be that, as it has the [Evil] tag, using it is an evil act that (at least) slowly turns one evil. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not, that is part of the rules written in the PHB about Evil spells. BUT if that aspect is removed (at least if the spell is used for good or neutral purposes), then I'd be fine with it and would probably pick it as well if going for maximum utility and power. Just would probably rename it if I had to speak to the press about it :smalltongue:

My actual choice might be different if I gave the Spell Compendium a good look-over, but I'm not familiar enough with the 3.5 spells anymore to really know. Enchantment was usually one of my banned schools.

[heavyfuel]

The spell does say this, yes.

The spell does NOT say this.

There's no negative effect listed in the spell's text, so the bad thing you think could happen -- that bad thing will not happen.

Maybe you learn everything during the spell's instantaneous effect, so you can pick & choose what the target retains, but you don't retain everything afterwards.

Maybe you do retain everything, but it's not a problem because magic.


It's better to try to figure out why the rules could work, rather than imagine that they don't work and then pile on fictional consequences.

Meh. Argue the RAW of it as much as you want (and I do apply the RAW in actual games), our real life brains aren't described in in-game mechanics. We can't know about unforeseen consequences spells might have when translating them to the real-world.

[Uncle Pine]

Seconding Monsther Thrall

While Mindrape is much more powerful, there's a pretty big problem with it.



While this may sound good at first glance, think about the consequences this can have. You learn EVERYTHING. You'd start confusing your real memories with other people's and you might experience second-hand trauma. It's just too unsure what will happen with you after using it, especially if you use it multiple times.

If that happens, mindrape yourself: problem solved. Just refer to it as brainbleach (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/411/Bleach.jpg) when used for such purpose.

[Blu]

Meh. Argue the RAW of it as much as you want (and I do apply the RAW in actual games), our real life brains aren't described in in-game mechanics. We can't know about unforeseen consequences spells might have when translating them to the real-world.

Occasionally Mindrape yourself when the trauma builds up and remove what is not necessary or is causing too much pain.
Problem solved.

Edit: Damnit, got ninja'ed

[heavyfuel]

If that happens, mindrape yourself: problem solved. Just refer to it as brainbleach (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/411/Bleach.jpg) when used for such purpose.

I actually though of that. I felt however that there might be memory confusion from the very first time, and I'd be afraid of deleting something of mine or accidentally keeping something from the previous target.

[Jormengand]

I'm glad to see that I'm the only person with a moral problem with invading someone's mind and forcing them to believe what you want them to.

[Nifft]

My issue with Mindrape would be that, as it has the [Evil] tag, using it is an evil act that (at least) slowly turns one evil. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not, that is part of the rules written in the PHB about Evil spells.

That's true, but the fun thing about mindrape is that when you do turn Evil, you've got a spell that will suit your new alignment perfectly.

So I'd start out as a noble paragon of virtue, then get corrupted by my evil power, and (hopefully) live to become the villain.


If that happens, mindrape yourself: problem solved. Just refer to it as brainbleach (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/006/411/Bleach.jpg) when used for such purpose.

Wow, you're right.

What has been seen CAN be unseen!

Behold the beneficent healing power of mindrape.



The caster can erase or add memories as she sees fit and alter emotions, opinions, and even alignment.


You can even use mindrape to remove the evil tendencies imposed by repeated usage of an evil spell, for example mindrape.


EDIT:

I'm glad to see that I'm the only person with a moral problem with invading someone's mind and forcing them to believe what you want them to.

If you'd like, I can help you with that moral qualm. It'll only take one standard action to correct.

[Blu]

I'm glad to see that I'm the only person with a moral problem with invading someone's mind and forcing them to believe what you want them to.

Well, the gist of the whole school is basically messing with someone's mind... Invading and perma chancing stuff might be the worse of it, but we can have a moral discussion about even the least of it, Charming, wich basically devolves into forcing people to like you.

I think i would go for Dominate Monster actually.

[Uncle Pine]

I'm glad to see that I'm the only person with a moral problem with invading someone's mind and forcing them to believe what you want them to.

Someone? Should you have qualms about using mindrape on people (you should), nothing prevents you from using it on things: you can likely become the world's most successful farmer or animal trainer with mindrape by using it on cows or other animals, and those are just a couple examples. It's truly the strongest and most versatile enchantment spell, which is why it should always be picked over say dominate person (now that you can only use on people!).

[FaerieGodfather]

My issue with Mindrape would be that, as it has the [Evil] tag, using it is an evil act that (at least) slowly turns one evil. Regardless of whether it makes sense or not, that is part of the rules written in the PHB about Evil spells.

[Evil] spells are not [Evil] because their effects are innately Evil, or because they can only be used for Evil purposes. They're [Evil] because they require you to channel the power of Evil through yourself. Casting [Evil] spells doesn't shift your alignment because casting [Evil] spells is morally wrong, it shifts your alignment because bathing your soul in primordial Evil is going to make you more and more prone to commiting acts of cruelty and depravity.

The fact that the spell is most useful for Evil purposes is just icing on the cake.

That's why mindrape is one of very few Enchantment spells with the [Evil] tag, when most uses of most spells in that school are reprehensible, while the much more ethical animate dead is tagged. If that's a problem for you, programmed amnesia has the exact same effect for a longer casting time and a duration of Permanent instead of Instantaneous; who's going to dispel you in this world?


My actual choice might be different if I gave the Spell Compendium a good look-over, but I'm not familiar enough with the 3.5 spells anymore to really know. Enchantment was usually one of my banned schools.

Yeah, my vote was going to be mass suggestion before I was reminded that monstrous thrall and mindrape existed.


I'm glad to see that I'm the only person with a moral problem with invading someone's mind and forcing them to believe what you want them to.

I have an enormous moral problem with pretty much any Enchantment spell, but if you give me the option I am going to take it, and if I have it I am going to use it.

If the OP hadn't limited my options to anathema, I would have preferred to choose something I could still be a good person with: contingency and last breath, or mass heal, or heroes' feast.

[Jormengand]

Someone? Should you have qualms about using mindrape on people (you should), nothing prevents you from using it on things

That really doesn't make me feel any better about it. Great, now we can be even more evil towards sentient (and therefore experiencing the world and their surroundings and pain and so forth) but non-sapient creatures than we already are, woop-de-fricking-do.

[Segev]

Dominate monster is perhaps the most obvious one, to me. Sure, mindrape is great if you want to sneak up to people and surprise them with new lives that include you as their trusted friend, but dominate monster comes with poor man's scrying and honestly can be used pretty subtly, as long as you keep your thralls...enthralled. And it lasts for days. You can probably even be somewhat subtle about it, as long as you don't impose behaviors that are too out of character. They might wonder "what compelled me" to do something, but if you have them do it as if on impulse, they may rationalize it away.

For maximum subtlety, though, I'd go with demand. You need not have any sort of proximity, and need not even let them know from whence the message came. The embedded suggestion can be long-term and pervasive. Use on world leaders, CEOs, that friend you've lost track of (just leave the suggestion out if you're not trying to control their behavior and want to check in), or - since animals can have higher than 1 int - to prepare ground for working with animals. Though for animals, dominate monster is, again, better. They serve as scrying sensors as well as minions, and there's no distance listed for how far you can control them after you cast it.

[Crake]

[Evil] spells are not [Evil] because their effects are innately Evil, or because they can only be used for Evil purposes. They're [Evil] because they require you to channel the power of Evil through yourself. Casting [Evil] spells doesn't shift your alignment because casting [Evil] spells is morally wrong, it shifts your alignment because bathing your soul in primordial Evil is going to make you more and more prone to commiting acts of cruelty and depravity.

Unless you can back up this claim, this is entirely headcannon. Casting evil spells is an evil act, there is nothing more do it. There's no gateway nature to it, it's like saying kicking puppies is a gateway act to murder. Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive, you're evil because you've done evil. You don't do evil because you are evil.

[Elkad]

Since I'm not actually Evil, I'm going to go with Compel.

And then do my best to change everyone to CG, for the "be nice, but stay out of other people's business" viewpoint. Starting with the National leadership if possible (not necessarily all politicians - CEOs of social media companies probably need to go on the list early as well), then once I have a foothold of most of them, moving on to the world.
Believe it or not, I'm not going to prioritize Evil targets. I want the LN/N/CN people first. Then the LG types. The evil people will start to stick out on their own. Either they will duck (acceptable), or my new pseudo-thralls will eventually become annoyed enough to do something about it.

If it's 1/day, I'll probably just fail at accomplishing anything.
If it's at-will I can hit 4800 people in 8 hours of work. DC18ish should get me at least 75% success, enough that they have a supermajority and can get stuff done in the political arena.

[Malimar]

I'm glad to see that I'm the only person with a moral problem with invading someone's mind and forcing them to believe what you want them to.
At least nobody's picked reckless infatuation yet!

[Falontani]

Am I the only one who wants Geas?

[Jormengand]

As an actual answer to the question, crown of glory looks like the most powerful enchantment I feel comfortable using - +4 all skills is a bit awful (compare the level 1 truenamer utterance universal aptitude), but assuming I get the CL 15 needed to even cast it, it does come with the interesting ability to jump from a height of 20 feet mostly safely, which means I can leap out of the building I'm currently in rather than having to bother walking to the front door. Not the most useful, but eh.

+4 attack rolls is probably useless, +4 saves might mean I get sick less often I guess, and immunity to fear isn't awful. Maybe cures anxiety?

The other spell I'm looking at that might be useful is Heart's Ease, but that probably needs a DM ruling on what exactly it affects.

[FaerieGodfather]

Unless you can back up this claim, this is entirely headcannon. Casting evil spells is an evil act, there is nothing more do it. There's no gateway nature to it, it's like saying kicking puppies is a gateway act to murder. Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive, you're evil because you've done evil. You don't do evil because you are evil.

Please forgive me for trying to make some modicum of sense out of the forty-plus-years of hypocritical idiocy the D&D game has insisted on describing as "objective morality".

EDIT: Mostly unwarranted insult removed. Sorry if you saw it before I caught myself.

[Celestia]

I think I'm going to have to go with the majority here and pick mindrape. Sure, dominate monster has some nice aspects to it, but I like the instantaneous duration. I'm too lazy to do mind slave maintenance.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Unless you can back up this claim, this is entirely headcannon. Casting evil spells is an evil act, there is nothing more do it. There's no gateway nature to it, it's like saying kicking puppies is a gateway act to murder. Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive, you're evil because you've done evil. You don't do evil because you are evil.

BoVD (iirc, but it is in a book) actually confirms that this is generally true. [Evil] spells are tagged with that descriptor because they either require straight up evil energies to function or go about their task by inflicting needless suffering. Since nothing about Mindrape talks about inflicting suffering the and mechanically similar Programmed Amnesia does not have the [Evil] tag it is reasonable to conclude that Mindrape channels some malefic energies to enact it's purpose.

[Troacctid]

I'm really not on board for clearly evil invasive mind control effects. I'd rather have something more positive, like Greater Heroism. Just a +4 bonus to everything I do, plus supernatural confidence and resilience to physical injury. Sounds great to me.

I guess Crown of Glory is technically more powerful, but it also seems like it would draw an awful lot of unnecessary attention.

If I'm limited on uses, I might go for regular Heroism instead, for the longer duration.

[SangoProduction]

You can even use mindrape to remove the evil tendencies imposed by repeated usage of an evil spell, for example mindrape.

I mean....unless you're removing your tendencies to use mindrape on actual people...

[Kish]

Going only by the SRD because looking up non-core sources is more effort than I want to go to for this, demand.

What I would use it for, I'll leave to the reader's imagination.

[Quertus]

Mindrape, no question.

"Is there any problem Mindrape can't solve?"

Silent stilled quickened twinned repeating mind rape, preferably. :smallwink:

[Baroncognito]

keep watch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/keep-watch) Who needs sleep?

[PacMan2247]

If there's one thing I've learned from books, movies, and video games, it's this: if you f&$* with someone and leave them alive, you will eventually regret it- possibly fatally. That's why I can't get on the mindrape bandwagon, or even programmed amnesia, which is essentially the same but with a much longer casting time and shorter range. You'd be better off with one of the Power Words.

I'm something of a misanthrope, so antipathy appeals to me. Zone of truth would certainly have its uses, and symbol of sleep would be nice for those times when I need a nap (or need everyone else in the house to take one). Ultimately, I think I'd go with symbol of sleep unless I were asked to make the decision when I was in a foul mood.

[Mechalich]

Ultimately, the answer is 'the best mind-control spell you can grab' it doesn't really matter which one exactly. Precisely which one would depend on how often you can cast it. For instance, if we're talking about at will, then demand probably has superiority because you can just pull up the Forbes 400 and start asking the world's richest people for favors until you run out of stuff you want and switch over to political figures. On the other hand, if you only get 1/day, dominate monster may be a better choice for your ability to acquire a single extremely potent dedicated ally.

[Shalist]

Snowsong (Bard6)


Snowsong fills the area with a soft snowfall that melts and evaporates on contact with anything solid.

When you cast the spell, you must designate all creatures in the area as either allies or enemies.

While the snow falls, allies in the area hear a soft, lilting song that bolsters their spirits and confidence. At the same time, as the snow strikes their bodies, it melts and washes away scars, wounds, and filth. Allies under the effect of the snow gain a +4 morale bonus to Charisma and attack rolls, and a +4 insight bonus to Armor Class. In addition, the snow imparts fast healing 1 and resistance to cold 15 to all affected allies.

edit: +1 to Heart's Ease for similar reasons (i.e. letting you do things that'd otherwise be impossible, even with training / money / etc.).

[Crake]

BoVD (iirc, but it is in a book) actually confirms that this is generally true. [Evil] spells are tagged with that descriptor because they either require straight up evil energies to function or go about their task by inflicting needless suffering. Since nothing about Mindrape talks about inflicting suffering the and mechanically similar Programmed Amnesia does not have the [Evil] tag it is reasonable to conclude that Mindrape channels some malefic energies to enact it's purpose.

Mind seed is also [Evil]. The reason both mind seed and mind rape are evil is because both of them are capable of the complete erasure of a person's personality from existence. Programmed amnesia, as similar as it is to mindrape, is not an instantaneous spell, meaning the person's personality is not erased, it is merely suppressed, and has far easier means to detect and remove (as an ongoing spell, you can detect it with a simple detect magic spell), and has a much easier removal method beyond wish/miracle in the form of greater restoration (or just disjunction).

Personally, in a world where the afterlife is a given, the erasure of someone's personality and nature from existence is a far more heinous crime than murder, and I think we all agree that murder is evil. That is where I would posit that the "inflicting of suffering" arises. It's the suffering of oblivion itself.

[Tetsubo 57]

I'd take Monstrous Thrall over Mindrape. The latter is Evil with a capital 'E' and frankly the name itself disgusts me. With the former I can become *the* mover and shaker in the world and the wealthiest person that ever lived. That's enough.

[Jack_Simth]

If the OP hadn't limited my options to anathema, I would have preferred to choose something I could still be a good person with: contingency and last breath, or mass heal, or heroes' feast.
Note that Contingency is useless if you only get one spell. It requires two in order to do anything.

[Celestia]

Note that Contingency is useless if you only get one spell. It requires two in order to do anything.
Not if you use Contingency to prepare a contingent Contingency. :smallwink:

[Nifft]

I mean....unless you're removing your tendencies to use mindrape on actual people...

Curing PTDS, depression, and addiction using an [Evil] spell seems like a non-evil action from the perspective of the actual people.

So I'd just need to clear up the evil effect of the [Evil] spell, which is confined to myself.

Luckily I've got a spell for that.

[Doctor Awkward]

Freezing Glance, Frostburn, pg. 95


I like my Enchantment spells to last for several rounds per casting, having effects that can last long after I'm done casting them, and not be mind-affecting.

[Anthrowhale]

No one has mentioned Spread of Contentment yet. It's an hour/level 10'/level spread with save:no converting all creatures to indifferent or better status. That means every creature not immune to mind-affecting cannot engage in combat (...even if they are getting stabbed/strangled/shot...). It's the best battlefield Enchantment spell.

Nevertheless, I'd probably go with Demand. The infinite range and great scope (anything fitting in 25 words) is pretty incredible. It can be used for good effects as well as bad, and it's use is nigh untraceable unlike virtually every other spell. The last is very important---if someone starts regularly casting traceable spells they necessarily attract unwanted attention.

[Gullintanni]

Am I the only one who wants Geas?

Seconding this. Geas//Quest is tremendously powerful in a world where the average person has around 6 hp and none of the typical remedies exist.

[Nifft]

Seconding this. Geas//Quest is tremendously powerful in a world where the average person has around 6 hp and none of the typical remedies exist.

That casting time hurts, though.

[Gullintanni]

That casting time hurts, though.

Really? Yeah in combat it sucks - but how hard is it to stay within 30 feet of someone for ten minutes? How often are you being physically assaulted while within 30 feet of someone?

For real life purposes, the casting time really just requires a little patience.

[Nifft]

Really? Yeah in combat it sucks - but how hard is it to stay within 30 feet of someone for ten minutes? How often are you being physically assaulted while within 30 feet of someone?

If you're ignoring the whole spellcasting thing, so you don't have to chant ominously while clearly focusing on the target, then it's probably possible to do as you suggest.

OP seems to assume that you do need to use the verbal component to cast the spell:

Spell cast follows any somatic and/or verbal component but ignores xp and material component.

[Gullintanni]

If you're ignoring the whole spellcasting thing, so you don't have to chant ominously while clearly focusing on the target, then it's probably possible to do as you suggest.

OP seems to assume that you do need to use the verbal component to cast the spell:

The volume, intensity, content or focus requirements are not actually defined in the RAW. The only requirement for verbal components by RAW, is that the caster must be able to speak in a strong voice. It needn't be a chant, or a chorus, and from 30 feet away, it likely wouldn't even be audible to the target.

You can also move freely while casting the spell. In anywhere loud, you could cast the spell without being noticed.



A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.


Also worth noting is that since nobody around has Spellcraft as a skill, nobody knows what you're doing or saying. Wear a Bluetooth headset or hold your phone to your ear and it looks like you had a 10 minute phone conversation in a foreign language.

[Doctor Awkward]

You can also move freely while casting the spell.

If the rules for casting a spell with a casting time of 1 minute (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime) also apply to a spell with a casting time of 10 minutes, then no you can't.


A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.


You can't move in any round in which your spend a full round action casting a spell. You couldn't even take a 5-foot step, if you interpret "consecutive and uninterrupted" as applying to free actions as well.

[Quarian Rex]

The only requirement for verbal components by RAW, is that the caster must be able to speak in a strong voice. It needn't be a chant, or a chorus, and from 30 feet away, it likely wouldn't even be audible to the target.


The 'strong voice' aspect pretty much demands that you would be audible to someone 30' away. That's like a thespian belting out Shakespeare within 30', you will notice. As you mentioned, there may be ways to mitigate this, the bluetooth is a good idea, but you are still left with those nearby seeing a rudely loud foreigner eye-f*cking the hell out of someone as they babble nonsensically. This won't make people think 'spellcasting' but they probably will think 'crazy (and surprisingly well dressed?) hobo' and give you a wide berth. And that target will definitely soon be outside of the 30' range asap (unless in a restricted environment for all that time, good luck with that), no one likes being the focus of that level of intense attention from someone who is apparently unbalanced.

Why apparently unbalanced? Completely ignoring all social queues (people don't have private conversations in public at Shakespearean volumes, nor do they maintain unbroken stares on someone for 10mins straight), being completely unresponsive to requests to 'shut-up', 'stop staring at me', 'what's your problem', etc. (can't stop spellcasting to respond to people), and people will quickly realize that this may not be a conversation that you are having when you fail to stop talking, for even a second, in this incomprehensible language that no one has ever heard before (and in this day and age people have heard a lot of languages). And that is assuming that spellcasting is some kind of a language of its own. If you are actually forming the verbal components with english (this aspect is rather hazy in the rules) you are even more SOL because it will be obvious that something is very wrong.

Not saying that such limitations cannot be overcome, just that you will need to consider them in far more depth that you apparently have so far.

[Kish]

Completely ignoring all social queues (people don't have private conversations in public at Shakespearean volumes,
I wish I lived where you do.

On an unrelated note, I can testify that someone with a cell phone could totally get away with this in the Tampa, Florida area. It wouldn't even draw stares, just mutters of annoyance from the occasional person who didn't grow up in these parts.

[Gullintanni]

"Strong voice" is not a defined game term. Strong voice may mean sufficiently audible to be heard from across the dinner table, with a sense of authority, or it could mean sufficiently loud so as to fill an ampitheater.

"Authoritative" and "Loud" both satisfy the definition of strong voice in my view.

There are also no rules describing the language, inflection, or verbal characteristics of a verbal component. There aren't even rules to suggest that each casters' version of Geas/Quest will have identical verbal components.

The fluff and the crunch simply do not offer answers to those questions. It is strictly possible that as a mage develops a spell, she creates a verbal incantation unique to her version of the spell.

The idea that a spells' incantation need be audible from 30' away in order to succeed is simply not supported by the game rules. The dictionary, on the other hand, supports much more permissive scenarios than what you describe. And as is the rule in D&D, where the rules are silent, the dictionary prevails.

[Quarian Rex]

"Strong voice" is not a defined game term. Strong voice may mean sufficiently audible to be heard from across the dinner table, with a sense of authority, or it could mean sufficiently loud so as to fill an ampitheater.

"Authoritative" and "Loud" both satisfy the definition of strong voice in my view.


I agree completely, and speaking either authoritatively or loudly precludes the possibility of subtlety. Whispering, muttering, and speaking under your breath are all off the table. Glad that you agree.




There are also no rules describing the language, inflection, or verbal characteristics of a verbal component. There aren't even rules to suggest that each casters' version of Geas/Quest will have identical verbal components.

The fluff and the crunch simply do not offer answers to those questions. It is strictly possible that as a mage develops a spell, she creates a verbal incantation unique to her version of the spell.


You are right, such things are not clearly spelled out, but enough circumstantial evidence exists to suggest the opposite. The very fact that Wizards can share spells and memorize from each others spellbooks suggests that spells have a baseline consistency and commonality that is understandable by other such prepared casters. There are no mechanical methods to disguise/protect your spells with linguistic trickery, like requiring all of your spells to be spoken in iambic pentameter, or recording all your spells in D’ziriak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/linguistics/) so that no one can copy your spells. The evidence we have on this issue implies that a caster has little to no capability to modify a spells verbal components.




The idea that a spells' incantation need be audible from 30' away in order to succeed is simply not supported by the game rules. The dictionary, on the other hand, supports much more permissive scenarios than what you describe. And as is the rule in D&D, where the rules are silent, the dictionary prevails.


Look closer at the rules. It is a DC 0 Perception (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/perception) check to hear the details of a conversation, and 30 feet away only makes that DC 3. And that is a conversation without anyone speaking 'forcefully'. You will be heard. Without Still/Silent metamagic options (not something included in the scenario) covert spellcasting at that range doesn't seem to be an option.

This isn't to say that you couldn't still make this work, you would just need to get creative. You would need to engineer situations where someone would voluntarily spend 10mins in your presence while you single-mindedly recite eldritch incantations accompanied with ill willed gesticulations. Perhaps take out an add on Craig's List, say that you need volunteers for research and are paying $20. Tell them that they are to listen to a 10min script, with accompanying hand gestures, while being recorded by a thermo camera (why no other input from them is needed). Say that you are looking for thermic skin responses to various phoneme and visual stimuli (or similar meaningless babble). You can now Geas away.

Like I said, this sort of thing is doable with the right amount of effort. If you think that this is something that can casually be whipped out on someone you share an elevator with or on someone on the subway that catches your eye then you are gravely mistaken. That 10min cast time is one hell of a limitation.

[StreamOfTheSky]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#telepathy


For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, telepathy powers are equivalent to powers of the enchantment school (thus, creatures resistant to enchantment spells are equally resistant to telepathy powers).

So, for the purpose of this thread, are Telepathy psionic powers an option, too?

[Xar Zarath]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#telepathy



So, for the purpose of this thread, are Telepathy psionic powers an option, too?

for the purposes of this thread, nope. Only spells allowed.

[Karmea]

Major Mind Swap. As much as I loathe the enchantment school, immortality is just... too tempting. That diamond cost hurts, but once every 40 years or so... meh. I'll take it.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/binding.htm)

Why? Many reasons.

Does someone have a degenerative disease, and is willing to wait it out, until there's a cure? Slumber. I'll check in on you every 15 years, or sooner, if the cure is found. Also, remember to move all your money to a long-term savings plan. Cash up front, please.

Elderly, but want to meet your grandchildren/great-grandchildren? Slumber.

Your pick lost the election, and you don't want to wait out 4 years of complaining? Slumber.

Invested a lot of money in stocks, and want to get straight to being a rich person? Slumber.

Want to binge watch ALL of the Marvel movies, and are too impatient for them to eventually come out? Slumber.

What's that? NASA is sending people to Mars, but it's too costly to develop life support systems that will endure for the entire trip? Slumber.

Since the caster may set the release triggers however they wish, and the preceding examples are all voluntary, saving throws aren't an issue. You can even stack the duration multiple times, so the world can FINALLY be rid of Carrot Top once and for all you can send people to the far, far future, if need be. Who wants to go to Alpha Centauri? And give me their life savings?

Also, I guess I could revolutionize the prison systems, too. Life in jail? Metamorphosis, if they've got family who want to visit, Minimus Containment, for those that don't. It turns out there was a mistake, and you're free to go? Well, that's why the spell allows you to set triggers to undo the binding.

...Huh, does Metamorphosis remind anyone else of the heads in jars from Futurama? Weird. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT - I just realised that Slumber can also stand in for the tubes at the cryogenics lab. WELCOME, TO THE WORLD OF TOMORROOOOW! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiwA0JrGfjA)

And cue theme song. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F1QNfmiqHc)

[Jack_Simth]

Major Mind Swap. As much as I loathe the enchantment school, immortality is just... too tempting. That diamond cost hurts, but once every 40 years or so... meh. I'll take it.

Well, as the OP specified:

Spell cast follows any somatic and/or verbal component but ignores xp and material component.(emphasis added)
The diamonds aren't an issue.

Would be tricky... could actually do that somewhat ethically; Get rich, fully explain to people what you're doing; leave them a significant chunk of your fortune in exchange for body swapping with them.

Of course, for that to work, first you'll have to get rich...

[Calthropstu]

Psh, screw the goody goody crap. Mass dominate person. I'm walking into the wsop, dominating everyone at the table, having them signal me their hands, and walking away with the top prize.
Then I am going to visit a bunch of ceos, who will tell me all I need to know to rake in huge amounts of cash with insider trading, then using that money to host parties for politicians. Dominate the right ones, and I effectively control the country.
Imo, it's better than monstrous thrall despite its days long duration because it can affect multiple people at the same time.
Even though you have to perform the gestures and speak the words, nothing says they have to see or hear the gestures. So, a good medical mask on your face combined with some dark sunglasses and some well hidden gestures, proper use of mental commands to make it seem like nothing is out of place (ie, if your poker hand is above a straight your hand itches. Scratch it.) And even the dominated person wouldn't be able to tell what had gone wrong.
Might become more difficult to hide the more you got done, but eh.
If I ever did get caught, I could just spam the spell in the police station and cause massive damage. Going underground as a fugitive would be simple since I could pretty much get anyone to hide me.
Alternatively, I could simply insert myself into hollywood becoming a hot celebrity's "flavor of the month" who somehow knocks her up and marries her. While not exactly world domination, I think I could be happy married to a pretty much permanently dominated hot actress who would do anything I wanted... including inviting over her hot actress/model friends for me to dominate as well.
Hell, it'd be good for her anyways because I could pretty much become her manager and could guarantee she'd get almost any contract she wanted.
So yeah... mass dominate for me please. I don't think permanent donination is a good idea.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Psh, screw the goody goody crap. Mass dominate person. I'm walking into the wsop, dominating everyone at the table, having them signal me their hands, and walking away with the top prize.
Then I am going to visit a bunch of ceos, who will tell me all I need to know to rake in huge amounts of cash with insider trading, then using that money to host parties for politicians. Dominate the right ones, and I effectively control the country.
Imo, it's better than monstrous thrall despite its days long duration because it can affect multiple people at the same time.
Even though you have to perform the gestures and speak the words, nothing says they have to see or hear the gestures. So, a good medical mask on your face combined with some dark sunglasses and some well hidden gestures, proper use of mental commands to make it seem like nothing is out of place (ie, if your poker hand is above a straight your hand itches. Scratch it.) And even the dominated person wouldn't be able to tell what had gone wrong.
Might become more difficult to hide the more you got done, but eh.
If I ever did get caught, I could just spam the spell in the police station and cause massive damage. Going underground as a fugitive would be simple since I could pretty much get anyone to hide me.
Alternatively, I could simply insert myself into hollywood becoming a hot celebrity's "flavor of the month" who somehow knocks her up and marries her. While not exactly world domination, I think I could be happy married to a pretty much permanently dominated hot actress who would do anything I wanted... including inviting over her hot actress/model friends for me to dominate as well.
Hell, it'd be good for her anyways because I could pretty much become her manager and could guarantee she'd get almost any contract she wanted.
So yeah... mass dominate for me please. I don't think permanent donination is a good idea.
Am I the only one who think Charm is better?
It make team want to help you while Dominate force them.

If they remember they were controled they will not like you and will want to hunt and stop you.

[Nifft]

Psh, screw the goody goody crap. Mass dominate person. I'm walking into the wsop, dominating everyone at the table, having them signal me their hands, and walking away with the top prize.
Then I am going to visit a bunch of ceos, who will tell me all I need to know to rake in huge amounts of cash with insider trading, then using that money to host parties for politicians. Dominate the right ones, and I effectively control the country.
Imo, it's better than monstrous thrall despite its days long duration because it can affect multiple people at the same time.
Even though you have to perform the gestures and speak the words, nothing says they have to see or hear the gestures. So, a good medical mask on your face combined with some dark sunglasses and some well hidden gestures, proper use of mental commands to make it seem like nothing is out of place (ie, if your poker hand is above a straight your hand itches. Scratch it.) And even the dominated person wouldn't be able to tell what had gone wrong.
Might become more difficult to hide the more you got done, but eh.
If I ever did get caught, I could just spam the spell in the police station and cause massive damage. Going underground as a fugitive would be simple since I could pretty much get anyone to hide me.
Alternatively, I could simply insert myself into hollywood becoming a hot celebrity's "flavor of the month" who somehow knocks her up and marries her. While not exactly world domination, I think I could be happy married to a pretty much permanently dominated hot actress who would do anything I wanted... including inviting over her hot actress/model friends for me to dominate as well.
Hell, it'd be good for her anyways because I could pretty much become her manager and could guarantee she'd get almost any contract she wanted.
So yeah... mass dominate for me please. I don't think permanent donination is a good idea.

People do know they've been dominated, though.

Also a dominated person's behavior becomes notably abnormal:


Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth). Because of this limited range of activity, a Sense Motive check against DC 15 (rather than DC 25) can determine that the subject’s behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect (see the Sense Motive skill description).


It's a great effect, but RAW-as-written it won't do what you want.

[Segev]

Am I the only one who wants Geas?

I considered it, but the necessity of keeping somebody still for 10 minutes while you cast it on them, combined with the fact that you can control a victim of dominate to do just about anything you could geas them to, it just doesn't work as well as dominate monster. Which is unsurprising, since dominate monster is a 9th level spell.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I considered it, but the necessity of keeping somebody still for 10 minutes while you cast it on them, combined with the fact that you can control a victim of dominate to do just about anything you could geas them to, it just doesn't work as well as dominate monster. Which is unsurprising, since dominate monster is a 9th level spell.
You can give people punishment after a trial.
You can be a part of a secret unit of some government or super ultra secret world domination organization.
You can make sure people will act by the rules.
It is great for a dictators, you can work for them as the head of the secret police and make sure the man under you do their job.

[FaerieGodfather]

It is great for a dictators, you can work for them as the head of the secret police and make sure the man under you do their job.

Why would I take a magical superpower that's going to turn me into an irredeemable sonofabitch just to serve an even bigger sonofabitch with no powers?

If I'm going to Hell, I am at least going go there on my own behalf.

[Segev]

Not entirely sure how you get around the "can't complete through their own actions" clause to inflict prison sentences or enforce servitude or even doing one's job. If you want it to last longer than dominate would, you need to give them a task they can complete under their own power, rather than by waiting for something else to act (including an arbitrary clock).

[Anthrowhale]

..It is great for a dictators...

Related to influencing the power balance of the world, 'Demand' seems to go very heavily in the opposite direction (i.e. against dictators). In a world with no defense against Demand, all significant power structures must be devolved onto a to-large-to-demand set of joint decision makers. That sort of devolution seems deeply incompatible with dictatorships.

[Segev]

Related to influencing the power balance of the world, 'Demand' seems to go very heavily in the opposite direction (i.e. against dictators). In a world with no defense against Demand, all significant power structures must be devolved onto a to-large-to-demand set of joint decision makers. That sort of devolution seems deeply incompatible with dictatorships.

Demand works against even oligarchies. There will always be movers and shakers, leaders of opinion.

But yes, it's ideal for dismantling or otherwise getting useful things out of dictatorships, precisely because you have to get one man to make a decision in such cases. It works even when the compelled decisions aren't the wisest for keeping the dictator in power, because you just keep using it on whoever is in charge next. Maybe even use it on a few key folks around him, so that you can manipulate their perception. Of course they think he's making the right decision, you suggested that it was.

[Nifft]

Demand works against even oligarchies. There will always be movers and shakers, leaders of opinion.

But yes, it's ideal for dismantling or otherwise getting useful things out of dictatorships, precisely because you have to get one man to make a decision in such cases. It works even when the compelled decisions aren't the wisest for keeping the dictator in power, because you just keep using it on whoever is in charge next. Maybe even use it on a few key folks around him, so that you can manipulate their perception. Of course they think he's making the right decision, you suggested that it was.

Yeah I think demand is the 2nd best spell, close after mindrape.

The targeting is amazing, and the effect is great.

[Segev]

Yeah I think demand is the 2nd best spell, close after mindrape.

The targeting is amazing, and the effect is great.

I'd take it over mindrape mainly because, for anybody I don't have physical access to, it's a lot easier to use. And also because demand allows for non-mind-control long-distance communication, even if I have no other means of getting in touch with somebody. I can actually think of one childhood friend I'd love to say "hi" to and try to reconnect with who I'd use just the communication effect with. I have no idea what's become of her since she moved away in third grade. ^^; Heck, she may well have kids of her own that're older than we were when last I saw her.

In the hands of a prankster, it also makes for excellent trolling potential.

To use mindrape for effect, you need to get into range, and that can involve having to cast it very carefully on a large number of intermediary and guard-type persons. Let's say you wanted to get President Trump to remember you as a good, old friend to whom he'd promised a suite in Trump Tower after losing a bet regarding whether he could win the Presidency. You need to get access to him. This means mindraping enough Secret Service guards so they think you should be wherever you are. It means mindraping various people who know Trump well so they also recall you as being his old friend who bet him he could win if he ran this time. It means you have to whammy enough people before anybody notices and calls you out on it, because if they're falling one by one, somebody is going to clue in to you not belonging there and take action before you get to them.

That said, it is far MORE powerful for the "know everything they know" line, because of what you can do to use that to build your tree of memory-rewritten people. Whammy Trump in a hand-shaking line, for instance, and you now have a good idea who else you'll need to whammy to make sure nobody who should know better fails to recall you.

But still, you need to get into their presence.



Here's an interesting question: You're playing a version of you with the spell you've chosen in the world you live in now, except you can tweak your morals to make goals or methods more interesting than you'd possibly willingly do if you, with your RL morals and ethics, got such power. What are your goals and how do you go about them?


Me, I probably do start with demanding various changes from dictators. I also probably target certain Senators whose ethics I find deplorable and demand they be honest. Maybe I am more clever about it, and use the suggestion to make them slip up and admit what they really think rather than try to get them to go against their self-interest consciously. "Next time you're giving a speech to a national audience, you will think the mic is off; get what you really think off your chest."

I'd give a few more specifics, but it gets RL political.

I might also use it to prepare ways for me to get in good with third world dictators. Maybe learn their leadership structures well enough that I can manipulate their governments into a unified vision of my own to build much stronger economies, and use my knowledge of them to make myself independently wealthy. If I play my cards right, use that knowledge to get myself in as the shadow leader. If I don't want to do that, at least get myself in the ear of various powers so that I can get perks as if I were far, far wealthier and better-connected than I am. Need to be careful, though.

The downside of demand compared to mindrape is that it is slow, and it doesn't give the ability to permanently alter perception of you.

With mindrape at will, and a far lower set of scruples, I'd start with some rich people I think it'd be fun to be friends with, and insert myself as their old friend. Then, when I have an idea of who owns what property, I would start altering memories so people think I owned more money and property than I did. If I wanted to play the "third world dictator" game, I'd have to GET to them, but I would start by using small alterations to large numbers of people, finding those close to the centers of power I wanted to infiltrate and using their knowledge to get me closer, altering memories as needed while allowing my new "old friends" to introduce me elsewhere. I'd have an eye towards making sure anybody who might have the slightest inclination to violence to protect a position against this interloping "old friend" remembers me in a way that will make sure they have no desire to do that violence against me.

That is why mindrape is better for personal empowerment, though: it can be used "on the fly" and to have far deeper impact on how others will treat you.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Not entirely sure how you get around the "can't complete through their own actions" clause to inflict prison sentences or enforce servitude or even doing one's job. If you want it to last longer than dominate would, you need to give them a task they can complete under their own power, rather than by waiting for something else to act (including an arbitrary clock).
I think you can tell them not to smile(smiles make a person happy and if I give someone a punishment I want them to feel bad.), not to look and to get 50ft away from children until you die(a punishment for a pedophile).

You just need to think on it a little and make it something they can do.

A geas for a worker can be something like:
Carry the orders you are given by X(their Commander) all the time they are recruited.

If he is just a regular secret police tell him to report on everything that the people in the country say, write, ect...(soory, I am not a native English speaker, I don't the right words) until he get X(a very high number) reports and report to you after he finished his X reports.

Geas in the workplace should be like a contract, people will be willing.

[Seto]

Hmm, let's see.

No Mindrape. Although it's tempting (especially for the "you learn everything the target knows" clause, which can't be replicated with other mind control spells!), it revulses me enough that I wouldn't want to do it. Worse, I'm pretty sure I would do it eventually. So no.

No Demand. It's exceedingly easy to trace (you appear in someone's mind and talk to them, they can recognize you and remember you (and look for you if they don't know you), and then they want to help you: how is that not screaming "Hi, I can do magic"?) and would get me into trouble. Otherwise it's neat.

No Dominate for the same reasons as Mindrape. Even if it's a bit less, turning people into zombies devoted to my will with blunt mental force is just icky.

Not otherwise going outside of Core, because it takes time.

It would be between Charm Person and (Mass) Suggestion for me. Charm makes you and your requests appear in the most favorable light, but people are still essentially free. Suggestion is a bit more invasive, but it still pertains to something the subject might find reasonable, even if they wouldn't have done it on their own. It's not like you're rewriting someone's mind or suppressing it - you're adding something of your own will to it. It's like being super charismatic and convincing, only supernaturally so instead of mundane charisma. I can tell myself I'm being a little questionable, but not overly so, and that it just compensates for the charisma I don't have. Now that's a level of hypocrisy that I can be comfortable with and rationalize for.
Charm Person doesn't last long enough to get many long-term benefits, plus it's person-focused instead of being task-focused. Suggestion lasts enough time to get your suggestion done. Plus, Mass Suggestion lets choose whether you use it on one or several people, which is strictly better (well, depending on my CL). Mass Suggestion it is.

[Quertus]

No Mindrape. Although it's tempting (especially for the "you learn everything the target knows" clause, which can't be replicated with other mind control spells!), it revulses me enough that I wouldn't want to do it. Worse, I'm pretty sure I would do it eventually. So no.

You know, with Mindrape, you can fix that revulsion. That is, perhaps, the most terrifying bit.

[Nifft]

You know, with Mindrape, you can fix that revulsion. That is, perhaps, the most terrifying soothing and reassuring bit.

It's soothing and reassuring how much the spell mindrape resembles some predicted transhumanist capabilities.

[Quertus]

It's soothing and reassuring how much the spell mindrape resembles some predicted transhumanist capabilities.

?

I'm not up on transhumanism enough to be properly terrified soothed. To what property are you referring?