Dissonant Whispers, about its uses, how cool it is or isn't, misunderstands etc

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I think this one fits Bards perfectly. I always imagine the X files theme or that wonky All Along the Watchtower from Battlestar in my victim's heads. Dissonant Whispers is becoming one of my go to spells for a few reasons.

- the damage is reasonable if not spectacular and its a sure thing you get SOMETHING with the save for half.
- getting an opponent to flee when in melee with a few of my allies causes GREAT damage!
- it does not require concentration so I can cast it while flying or keeping someone polymorphed or whatever
- the range is good
- it only requires verbal components
- it is level 1. That's right, level 1 folks! You can use it from the day you start playing until the last day you actually hit level 12 or whenever you quit!

Do I understand right that:

- if an opponent has already used their reaction for counterspell or an opportunity attack or whatever they can not flee?
- the opponent fleeing does create opportunity attacks unlike if they were blasted back by Thunderwave?
- even though it says the opponent won't run into a fire or fall in a pit to get away from me they will create the opportunity attacks even though those are dangerous?

The limiting factors of this spell seem to be:
- the Wisdom save is rather common on the Bard spell list
- some opponents have advantage on saves
- I find it more useful against a single opponent than a group of them where something like Fear comes in. Fear lasts longer but doesn't cause the damage immediately.


Spell text below:
Casting Time: 1 action

Range: 60 feet
Components: V

Duration: Instantaneous

You whisper a discordant melody that only one creature of your choice within range can hear, wracking it with terrible pain. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 3d6 psychic damage and must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move as far as its speed allows away from you. The creature doesn’t move into obviously dangerous ground, such as a fire or a pit. On a successful save, the target takes half as much damage and doesn’t have to move away. A deafened creature automatically succeeds on the save.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st.

As always correct me if I'm wrong about anything.

[nickl_2000]

- if an opponent has already used their reaction for counterspell or an opportunity attack or whatever they can not flee?


Correct. If they have no reaction, they can't use the reaction. Therefore no movement.



- the opponent fleeing does create opportunity attacks unlike if they were blasted back by Thunderwave?

Correct. They are using their movement and therefore get AoOs against them.



- even though it says the opponent won't run into a fire or fall in a pit to get away from me they will create the opportunity attacks even though those are dangerous?


"The creature doesn't move into obviously dangerous ground" An attack of opportunity isn't dangerous ground. A track, a pit, fire, an area of spike growth, that's dangerous ground.

[DigitalCharlie]

It is, without a doubt, one of the Bard's staple spells to help allies dish out more damage. To answer your questions:


That is correct. If they have already used their reaction, they can't flee.
That is correct, and is the real power of the spell. Especially for friendly rogues. It does not, however, trigger Booming Blade according to Jeremy Crawford. Lots of DMs say it does, though.
Yes. Obviously dangerous ground is different from doing something that may result in damage.

[solidork]

I mean, if you're a Valor/Sword Bard its still pretty great even if you're only triggering your own attack. It's kinda like a Paladin Smite, except that they get a chance to save against it. If you've got Warcaster then it lets you essentially cast two spells in the same turn.

It is also notable as a spell that a Valor Bard can cast even while using a Sword+Shield.

[nickl_2000]

If you've got Warcaster then it lets you essentially cast two spells in the same turn..

The Warcaster reaction spell would still have to be a cantrip though, since you have already cast 1 leveled spell on your turn.

[Dudewithknives]

The Warcaster reaction spell would still have to be a cantrip though, since you have already cast 1 leveled spell on your turn.

War caster is always a cantrip anyway.

High elf valor bard, take booming blade as your high elf cantrip.

Get in melee, normal attack, bonus action cast dissonant whispers, when they move war caster reaction cast booming blade, the also set off the booming blade extra damage.

[Matrix_Walker]

The Warcaster reaction spell would still have to be a cantrip though, since you have already cast 1 leveled spell on your turn.

Not true. You are only limited if you use a bonus action to cast a spell as well. You can use Dissonant Whispers and then hit them with all the shots of a scorching ray in the same turn if that is what you want to do.


War caster is always a cantrip anyway.

Incorrect. Any Spell with a casting time of 1 action that only targets the retreating subject is valid. You are certainly limited on your turn by the bonus action spell rule, IF you cast a spell as a bonus action.

[solidork]

The Warcaster reaction spell would still have to be a cantrip though, since you have already cast 1 leveled spell on your turn.

I'm fairly certain that only applies to casting spells as a bonus action. For example, you can cast Shield or Counterspell as well as a leveled spell on the same turn.

[nickl_2000]

Not true. You are only limited if you use a bonus action to cast a spell as well. You can use Dissonant Whispers and then hit them with all the shots of a scorching ray in the same turn if that is what you want to do.



Incorrect. Any Spell with a casting time of 1 action that only targets the retreating subject is valid. You are certainly limited on your turn by the bonus action spell rule, IF you cast a spell as a bonus action.


I'm fairly certain that only applies to casting spells as a bonus action. For example, you can cast Shield or Counterspell as well as a leveled spell on the same turn.


Alright, that's a really, really weird ruling but you two are right. It's specific to casting a spell as a bonus action. That seems like an extreme over complication, but it's the rules :smallcool:

[MrStabby]

Yeah, although the PHB does call out counterspell on a counterspell targeting your spell as an option for reactions, so I guess they wanted to support that a bit.

[MaxWilson]

You whisper a discordant melody that only one creature of your choice within range can hear, wracking it with terrible pain. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 3d6 psychic damage and must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move as far as its speed allows away from you. The creature doesn’t move into obviously dangerous ground, such as a fire or a pit. On a successful save, the target takes half as much damage and doesn’t have to move away. A deafened creature automatically succeeds on the save.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st.

As always correct me if I'm wrong about anything.

Previously it has bugged me that 5E seemed to grant extra movement as a reaction only to targets of the Dissonant Whispers spell, whereas you normally couldn't move as a reaction unless you'd Readied a move (which is basically a delayed Dash). But it just occurred to me, re-reading the spell, that Dissonant Whispers doesn't actually define how far the target moves. It does not say "moves away from you, up to its normal walking speed, as a reaction." It just says it moves as far as it can, "as far as its speed allows."

Depending on how you run rounds and turns during combat, this might just mean that the creature uses up its reaction and all of its remaining movement. E.g. an troll who spent the whole round clawing at a dwarf already right in front of him would move 30' when hit by Dissonant Whispers, but one who had used up 10' of its movement closing on another PC would flee only 20', and one which had Dashed 55' would flee only 5'.

Anyway, I just think it's interesting that Dissonant Whispers doesn't say what I always thought it did. Maybe I'm reading it too closely but honestly I like this way better anyway.

[kardar233]

Previously it has bugged me that 5E seemed to grant extra movement as a reaction only to targets of the Dissonant Whispers spell, whereas you normally couldn't move as a reaction unless you'd Readied a move (which is basically a delayed Dash). But it just occurred to me, re-reading the spell, that Dissonant Whispers doesn't actually define how far the target moves. It does not say "moves away from you, up to its normal walking speed, as a reaction." It just says it moves as far as it can, "as far as its speed allows."

Depending on how you run rounds and turns during combat, this might just mean that the creature uses up its reaction and all of its remaining movement. E.g. an troll who spent the whole round clawing at a dwarf already right in front of him would move 30' when hit by Dissonant Whispers, but one who had used up 10' of its movement closing on another PC would flee only 20', and one which had Dashed 55' would flee only 5'.

Anyway, I just think it's interesting that Dissonant Whispers doesn't say what I always thought it did. Maybe I'm reading it too closely but honestly I like this way better anyway.

As much sense as this makes, I think the added bookkeeping cost of remembering how much each monster had moved on their turn outweighs any benefit you’d be getting.

Scout Rogue also gets movement as a reaction when an enemy ends their turn close. I’ve also considered “move your speed as a reaction” as a possible effect for Tempo Bloodspikes.

[MaxWilson]

As much sense as this makes, I think the added bookkeeping cost of remembering how much each monster had moved on their turn outweighs any benefit you’d be getting.

That's why it depends so much on what initiative system you're using. If you're using some kind of variation on WEGO ("everybody declares, then everybody resolves") instead of IGOUGO (PHB initiative: someone declares + resolves, then the next person declares + acts, and so on, round robin) then you just pay attention any time someone declares that they're casting Dissonant Whispers this turn, and if they cast it early enough in the round then they get to use the victim's full movement, otherwise they just get whatever is left over.


Scout Rogue also gets movement as a reaction when an enemy ends their turn close. I’ve also considered “move your speed as a reaction” as a possible effect for Tempo Bloodspikes.

You're right. I guess Vengeance Paladins also get it. Maybe some others.

[Nidgit]

Another benefit is that it attacks an enemy you can hear, but not necessarily one you can see. That means invisible enemies are fair game, as are targets that you can hear on the other side of a wall.

I've had a Bard finish of an invisible devil by whispering the Heyyyyayyyayyyayay song in her ears. Good times.

[MaxWilson]

Another benefit is that it attacks an enemy you can hear, but not necessarily one you can see. That means invisible enemies are fair game, as are targets that you can hear on the other side of a wall.

Technically this is illegal, because targets behind total cover cannot be targeted. Walls provide total cover.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I mean, if you're a Valor/Sword Bard its still pretty great even if you're only triggering your own attack. It's kinda like a Paladin Smite, except that they get a chance to save against it. If you've got Warcaster then it lets you essentially cast two spells in the same turn.

It is also notable as a spell that a Valor Bard can cast even while using a Sword+Shield.

What am I missing here. Perhaps I need it in real simple terms. This can't possibly trigger an opportunity attack for a Lore Bard but it might for a Bard with two actions?

[Crgaston]

What am I missing here. Perhaps I need it in real simple terms. This can't possibly trigger an opportunity attack for a Lore Bard but it might for a Bard with two actions?

I think the issue is getting confused by the Valor Bard’s L14 ability...

When you use your action to cast a bard spell, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action.

So the VB could actually get the spell, the BA Attack, and the Reaction Attack.

Should work fine on a Lore Bard, but just for the one reaction.

[Tanarii]

Previously it has bugged me that 5E seemed to grant extra movement as a reaction only to targets of the Dissonant Whispers spell, whereas you normally couldn't move as a reaction unless you'd Readied a move (which is basically a delayed Dash). But it just occurred to me, re-reading the spell, that Dissonant Whispers doesn't actually define how far the target moves. It does not say "moves away from you, up to its normal walking speed, as a reaction." It just says it moves as far as it can, "as far as its speed allows."
If this were the case, readying an action to "move up to your speed " would not have any effect either. So clearly it's separate from the general rule that on your turn, a creature can "move a distance up to your speed".

[solidork]

What am I missing here. Perhaps I need it in real simple terms. This can't possibly trigger an opportunity attack for a Lore Bard but it might for a Bard with two actions?

I mostly meant that Lore bard might not even be using a melee weapon, or be make particularly good opportunity attacks.

[JackPhoenix]

Previously it has bugged me that 5E seemed to grant extra movement as a reaction only to targets of the Dissonant Whispers spell, whereas you normally couldn't move as a reaction unless you'd Readied a move (which is basically a delayed Dash). But it just occurred to me, re-reading the spell, that Dissonant Whispers doesn't actually define how far the target moves. It does not say "moves away from you, up to its normal walking speed, as a reaction." It just says it moves as far as it can, "as far as its speed allows."

Depending on how you run rounds and turns during combat, this might just mean that the creature uses up its reaction and all of its remaining movement. E.g. an troll who spent the whole round clawing at a dwarf already right in front of him would move 30' when hit by Dissonant Whispers, but one who had used up 10' of its movement closing on another PC would flee only 20', and one which had Dashed 55' would flee only 5'.

"On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed."

Your speed doesn't deplete as you move, it's the measure of maximum allowed movement on your turn. So if your speed is 30', your speed allows you to move 30'. Normally, you can't move outside your turn, Dissonant Whispers creates an exception.

[Belier]

Move to target, cast booming blade, hit. Quickening spell, dissonent whisper. Target move and take damage from booming blade.
Hit with attack of opportunity warcaster + booming blade because he got out of range.

So suppose a quarterstaff 1d6 + 2d8 from booming blade + 3d6 from dissonent whisper + 1d6 from quarterstaff + 2d8 from booming blade.

How cool is it from using a level 1 slot spell and sorcery point? Does it work, will the target reckognise the danger lf moving through booming blade and stay still?

Could be even nastier if used as a warlock/sorcerer multiclass with weapon pact.

[MaxWilson]

If this were the case, readying an action to "move up to your speed " would not have any effect either. So clearly it's separate from the general rule that on your turn, a creature can "move a distance up to your speed".

This is exactly what I called "basically a delayed Dash" in the text you quoted.

[Beelzebubba]

Even without Booming Blade optimization cheese, it's a great spell.

What it's great at is taking the biggest, highest damage-dealing brute opponent out of the combat for a round or two. It has plenty of other benefits - the psychic damage is nice, free AoOs are awesome, etc. - but with that monster disengaged, it lets players reposition and otherwise stack the odds in their advantage with the breathing room.

So, the Rogue can throw down caltrops, the pole-arm fighter can step back 5', the ranged damage dealer can get breathing room, the squishy caster that was about to die can be pulled away, etcetera.

In the best cases, it's a lot more effective - in my last session, the Bard kept using Dissonant Whispers to force a Scrag (sea troll) to jump off the ship back in to the water. It took 2 rounds for it to get back each time. The troll did kept regenerating back to full health each time, but the other monsters (Sahuagin) were much easier to take down with it not there, so the fight itself turned from tough as hell to manageable. When it came back for the final confrontation it was nearly alone, and was quickly surrounded and hit with Fire Bolts, flaming oil, and then hacked to pieces while it only got off one full Attack.

[Tanarii]

This is exactly what I called "basically a delayed Dash" in the text you quoted.
Yeah I didn't respond to that earlier, because both and you I know how it's supposed to work, but technically a Dash doesn't move you. It's an important technicality that often confuses newcomers. But in thinking about that, I think I missed the point you were making with it. :smallwink:

Interestingly, I always though speed wasn't "depleted" on your turn, but the PHB gives a method that sounds exactly like that's what happens.

"However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of the move from your speed until it is used up or you are done moving."
PHB p190, Movement, top or right column

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Yeah I didn't respond to that earlier, because both and you I know how it's supposed to work, but technically a Dash doesn't move you. It's an important technicality that often confuses newcomers. But in thinking about that, I think I missed the point you were making with it. :smallwink:

Interestingly, I always though speed wasn't "depleted" on your turn, but the PHB gives a method that sounds exactly like that's what happens.

"However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of the move from your speed until it is used up or you are done moving."
PHB p190, Movement, top or right column

The "technically a dash doesn't move you" part is confusing me.

Can you explain better? I'm a bit of a newb.

[Tanarii]

The "technically a dash doesn't move you" part is confusing me.

Can you explain better? I'm a bit of a newb.
Dash increases the movement you can take on your turn. It doesn't actually move you when you take the action.

One important distinction is that you cannot actually ready a Dash Action. You just ready movement per the Ready rule.

[Xetheral]

Interestingly, I always though speed wasn't "depleted" on your turn, but the PHB gives a method that sounds exactly like that's what happens.

"However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of the move from your speed until it is used up or you are done moving."
PHB p190, Movement, top or right column

Huh. So, if you fall prone after already deducting movement from your speed, can you stand back up using only half of what remains?

[Tanarii]

Huh. So, if you fall prone after already deducting movement from your speed, can you stand back up using only half of what remains?
I doubt that's the intent. It would have clearer if they said something like "you start your turn with movement equal to your speed, deduct from your movement blah blah".