E6 Variation and Advice

[FilthyLucre]

I'm going to be GMing a gritty steam/diesel-punk game set in a world where magic and technology fundamentally conflict, (re: Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura). To keep the game nestled in heroic fantasy I plan to run it as an E6 campaign using d20 modern. My players are ok with their core statistics, (Base attack bonus, saves, skills, etc), being capped at 6th level, however I worry that they'll run into character fatigue if they aren't able to really improve and gain more class features. What does the GitPG brain trust think about the following variations of d20 Modern E6:


Gestalt Characters
Continue to advance without BaB/Saves/Skills/Spells improving

Another adjustment I am considering is that after 6th level the BaB and Skill Ranks requirements for feats will be waived - allowing PCs to attain feats they would otherwise never have access to so long as they've got the necessary feat prerequisites.

(P.S.: Just for fun and "fyi" the game will also utilize armor-as-DR and wound/vitality variants)

[DEMON]

I'm going to be GMing a gritty steam/diesel-punk game set in a world where magic and technology fundamentally conflict, (re: Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura). To keep the game nestled in heroic fantasy I plan to run it as an E6 campaign using d20 modern. My players are ok with their core statistics, (Base attack bonus, saves, skills, etc), being capped at 6th level, however I worry that they'll run into character fatigue if they aren't able to really improve and gain more class features. What does the EnWorld brain trust think about the following variations of d20 Modern E6:


Gestalt Characters
Continue to advance without BaB/Saves/Skills/Spells improving

Another adjustment I am considering is that after 6th level the BaB and Skill Ranks requirements for feats will be waived - allowing PCs to attain feats they would otherwise never have access to so long as they've got the necessary feat prerequisites.

(P.S.: Just for fun and "fyi" the game will also utilize armor-as-DR and wound/vitality variants)

Gestalt characters would hit the same wall at level 6.

However, allowing the players to gestalt/tristalt etc. after hitting level 6 for another 6 levels again and again would allow them to increase variation and get new class features while still being within the constraints of E6.

e.g.
You are a level 6 character Ranger 3 / Wizard 3. BAB +4 / 3d8 + 3d4 HD etc.
After level 6 you start gaining levels on your second set of 6 levels and take 6 levels of Rogue.
You'd then have BAB +5 and 3d8 + 3d6 HD.
Then you'd add a 3rd set of 6 levels and so on.

[FilthyLucre]

Gestalt characters would hit the same wall at level 6.

However, allowing the players to gestalt/tristalt etc. after hitting level 6 for another 6 levels again and again would allow them to increase variation and get new class features while still being within the constraints of E6.

e.g.
You are a level 6 character Ranger 3 / Wizard 3. BAB +4 / 3d8 + 3d4 HD etc.
After level 6 you start gaining levels on your second set of 6 levels and take 6 levels of Rogue.
You'd then have BAB +5 and 3d8 + 3d6 HD.
Then you'd add a 3rd set of 6 levels and so on.

So that is a vote for the second bullet point? I'd like to point out that I would allow people to advance to levels beyond level 6 - they just wouldn't improve their BaB/Saves/Skills/Spells - but they would have access to higher level class features.

[DEMON]

So that is a vote for the second bullet point?

Not entirely. It's a new suggestion - a mix of both options.

[Gullintanni]

So that is a vote for the second bullet point? I'd like to point out that I would allow people to advance to levels beyond level 6 - they just wouldn't improve their BaB/Saves/Skills/Spells - but they would have access to higher level class features.

One of the problems with allowing access to late game class features is that you open the door to abilities that play like high level spells, or metamagic reduction etc.

Truenamers, for example, are able to use Gate at 20th level. It isn't a spell - do they gain access to it?

Certain prestige classes gain SLA's and metamagic reduction as high levels abilities. High level druids with the appropriate feats could wildshape into some seriously terrifying forms that, without high level magic and stats, would roll over all opposition.

The idea behind E6 is to write high level, problematic and game breaking content out of the game and the advancement you're talking about writes some of that content back in, without writing in a lot of the counters for that content. You might encounter dysfunction doing things this way.

However, gestalting with exp is just fine, IMHO. What I've considered for my E6 games is allowing my PCs to spend exp for gestalt levels or feats at their own discretion.

[Demidos]

In defense of base E6 -

We ran an E10 campaign in my group that simply went with the base E6 advancement rules (add a feat when you level), and we ran to 14 without any problems, especially using the more interesting feats (like the binder feats (bind vestiges), or Draconic Aura or Frightful presence, all grant significantly new abilities).

Perhaps to add new abilities you can let them "buy" class features from classes instead of feats? Like you could "buy" 1d6 sneak attack from the rogue or fast movement from the barbarian. I would NOT allow spellcasting here, or I'd consider it carefully (only allow the 1st level worth of spellcasting).

[Gullintanni]

In defense of base E6 -

We ran an E10 campaign in my group that simply went with the base E6 advancement rules (add a feat when you level), and we ran to 14 without any problems, especially using the more interesting feats (like the binder feats (bind vestiges), or Draconic Aura or Frightful presence, all grant significantly new abilities).

Perhaps to add new abilities you can let them "buy" class features from classes instead of feats? Like you could "buy" 1d6 sneak attack from the rogue or fast movement from the barbarian. I would NOT allow spellcasting here, or I'd consider it carefully (only allow the 1st level worth of spellcasting).

If memory serves, the original E6 document stated that the original intent was to offer exactly that sort of advancement - that XP could be used to buy feats, other level 6 or lower class features, etc.

In practice, the author found that 9 times out of 10, his players were choosing to buy feats exclusively, and so that's what went into the document. I see absolutely no reason why opening the door back up to a la carte class features would be a problem.

[FilthyLucre]

One of the problems with allowing access to late game class features is that you open the door to abilities that play like high level spells, or metamagic reduction etc.

Truenamers, for example, are able to use Gate at 20th level. It isn't a spell - do they gain access to it?

Certain prestige classes gain SLA's and metamagic reduction as high levels abilities. High level druids with the appropriate feats could wildshape into some seriously terrifying forms that, without high level magic and stats, would roll over all opposition.

The idea behind E6 is to write high level, problematic and game breaking content out of the game and the advancement you're talking about writes some of that content back in, without writing in a lot of the counters for that content. You might encounter dysfunction doing things this way.

However, gestalting with exp is just fine, IMHO. What I've considered for my E6 games is allowing my PCs to spend exp for gestalt levels or feats at their own discretion.

My original post explicitly calls out that we'll be using d20 modern - so I'm not really sure your concern carries any weight?

[Gullintanni]

My original post explicitly calls out that we'll be using d20 modern - so I'm not really sure your concern carries any weight?

I'm not really sure either. I don't know d20 modern at all. I'm operating on the premise that high level abilities are exponentially more powerful than lower level abilities.

If that's not the case, you're probably safe to continue granting abilities from later class levels. If I wanted to play it safe, I'd let my players draw abilities from ECL 6 and under.

[Goaty14]

High level druids with the appropriate feats could wildshape into some seriously terrifying forms that, without high level magic and stats, would roll over all opposition.

Name a "terrifying form" that has more than 6 HD. Druids are restricted to what they can wild shape into by their druid HD, and that wouldn't get improved.

[Luccan]

I'd like to point out, if you want players to feel a bit more limited in power in d20 modern, all you really need to do is limit access to advanced classes. The base d20 classes are chumps and the slight adjustments to things like the extreme damage rules makes it pretty easy to kill them outright (You take your Con in damage in one attack? Unconscious. Doesn't matter if you have 20 HP or 200). If you limit the advanced classes to non-combat classes, you should be fine in keeping the gritty feel.

If you want magic, you can have the magic class just be Occultist. There are very few tangible things that class gets. It's largely that it gets the ability to use magic items and interact with magical beings. You could also consider the Spiritualist from d20 Past, but they get explicit magical abilities, though they're mostly limited like Occultist. I would advise against the Mesmerist: it's literally just a weaker Telepath/Battle Mind, which puts it miles ahead of the other two.

If you still want to do E6, allow them to take Talents as well as feats, following the gaining feats after level 6 guidelines, and don't make them exclusive to each other.

[FilthyLucre]

I'd like to point out, if you want players to feel a bit more limited in power in d20 modern, all you really need to do is limit access to advanced classes. The base d20 classes are chumps and the slight adjustments to things like the extreme damage rules makes it pretty easy to kill them outright (You take your Con in damage in one attack? Unconscious. Doesn't matter if you have 20 HP or 200). If you limit the advanced classes to non-combat classes, you should be fine in keeping the gritty feel.

If you want magic, you can have the magic class just be Occultist. There are very few tangible things that class gets. It's largely that it gets the ability to use magic items and interact with magical beings. You could also consider the Spiritualist from d20 Past, but they get explicit magical abilities, though they're mostly limited like Occultist. I would advise against the Mesmerist: it's literally just a weaker Telepath/Battle Mind, which puts it miles ahead of the other two.

If you still want to do E6, allow them to take Talents as well as feats, following the gaining feats after level 6 guidelines, and don't make them exclusive to each other.

After doing a lot of researching on other peoples E6 experience and re-reading all the d20 Modern classes, advanced and basic, I'm confident in my decision to allow people to take virtual levels after 6th to gain the class features of advanced classes without gaining BaB/saves/skills/HP. And, again, none of the characters will be taking magical abilities of any kind - as I said in the very first post its a steampunk game and I will expect/require my players to create characters in that vein. Otherwise we'd just stick to regular D&D.