Manual/ Tome of Ability Raising?

[igor140]

So, I've only recently discovered that these exist, but the possibilities seem intriguing. Obviously I don't want to be handing these out like crackers, but what are you thoughts on when/ how often/ in what manner these should be handed out?

My party is currently lvl 9 (very close to 10), and we're just getting started with Dead in Thay. To flesh it out a little, I'm changing up the design and backstory a bit, and essentially the party is hired by Syranna (Thayan noble/ rebel) to undermine the "dungeon" (to avoid spoilers). This is going to be a long, involved process that's going to entail the party getting sucked into the nasty back-stabbing politics of Thay... and I'm really looking forward to it.

Moral of the story, I was thinking that as a "final" reward for completing this mission, Syranna would give the party a full set of these Manuals/ Tomes. They can divide them however they like (and given the party make-up, there should be little fighting over who gets what). Is that normal for a party of (what will be) lvl 12- 13 adventurers? Or is that too early? Thoughts? Advice?

Circuitously related to this, one guy is already talking about overthrowing one of the lesser noble houses in order to establish himself with a mansion in Thay. Is this the kind of thing I should let happen, or find some way to stop?

[Unoriginal]

Those manuals are extremely rare, and can only be used once in a century. Imagining someone got a full set of them, they'd be a fool to give them away as rewards to adventurers for a mission like that. Especially when said person is navigating in the backstabbing Thayan political intrigues and rebellions.

Honestly I can't see how this reward would make sense from an in-story standpoint. You don't give near-legendary items that can make you superhuman for life for that kind of investigation.


Circuitously related to this, one guy is already talking about overthrowing one of the lesser noble houses in order to establish himself with a mansion in Thay. Is this the kind of thing I should let happen, or find some way to stop?

Don't see why you would stop it. As a DM, I mean. Obviously, the various NPCs who don't want that to happen will try to stop it. Then the PC will learn overthrowing even a lesser noble house isn't easy, and that a dungeon is far less dangerous than being some kind of foreign nouveau riche in the chessboard of Thay.

That being said, if the PC manages to succeed this incredibly difficult task, I see no reason to not let them.

[LordEntrails]

Those manuals are extremely rare, and can only be used once in a century. Imagining someone got a full set of them, they'd be a fool to give them away as rewards to adventurers for a mission like that. Especially when said person is navigating in the backstabbing Thayan political intrigues and rebellions.
Well said.

IMO, I would allow or have maybe one or two of these show up during the entire length of the life of the party. Don't wait till 18th level, but if one or two shows up now as treasure, loot, or reward, then unless the party actually seeks it out, I wouldn't have another one become available ever until you are starting a new campaign with new characters etc.

These are special, if they show up more than once or twice their not very special.

[Mith]

Well said.

IMO, I would allow or have maybe one or two of these show up during the entire length of the life of the party. Don't wait till 18th level, but if one or two shows up now as treasure, loot, or reward, then unless the party actually seeks it out, I wouldn't have another one become available ever until you are starting a new campaign with new characters etc.

These are special, if they show up more than once or twice their not very special.

This makes me think of a set of 7 books: 1 for +2 to an individual stat, and 1 that gives +1 to all stats.

Each book can be used to track the others, so long as they are "active" (can be used). If the book has been used, it cannot be detected by any means.

Using all 7 books at once gives a synergy bonus of +3 stat boost and raising your stat cap by +4 (allowing one use of +1 from an ASI or feat).

Let's go full Journey to the West here!

[Naanomi]

If you are running the kind of game that might do this... tomes are a good item to Curse. Would you use one if it’s original writer automatically Charmed or Gaesed you? Or if it ate away at your lifespan?

[Davrix]

Just keep in mind that the books break the bounded accuracy math.

Also to be fair, the place you should find them is in a dragons lair or a Lich. Anything that is immortal as they would be the ones hording them for "repeated use"

[igor140]

Thanks for the replies! This puts a lot of things in perspective.

In the interest of further developing my world building and associated loot, Syranna (the quest-giver) is, in the context of this dungeon, a high-noble with almost unlimited resources trying to overthrow the dictator of her country. She is hiring these outsiders (precisely BECAUSE they are outsiders and have no extant standing in the political scheming) to undermine part of the dictator's infrastructure-- specifically the part that makes him immortal (though Syranna doesn't entirely understand that at the time). So i'm imagining an old, established, extremely powerful wizard who is, herself, 600+ years old; and the heiress to an old, established, extremely powerful noble house that has traditions and resources that extend back longer than the magocracy of Thay itself.

The main departure from the original Dead in Thay script is that this will take the party literal months (both in-game and real life) to make it through this dungeon. I'm rewriting parts of it so that the party must interact with a cross-section of noble houses in order to proceed further in the dungeon. This will include a range of negotiating, back-room deals, theft, assassination, and open warfare, in addition to the standard "go kill 20 orcs" quests. So the party will have worked with Syranna somewhere on the order of six months by the time it's all concluded.

Given all that, i thought it stood to reason (again, correct me if I'm wrong) that she would have access to a full set of these books. Even if she's not willing to part with them, she could-- at the conclusion of the coup-- allow them to access the knowledge of the full set. In my mind, she has been planning this coup for well over 100 years, and these adventurers come along and remove the most important obstacle. She and her close relatives have used these books numerous times over the years; the adventurers have given her access to knowledge that could allow her to immediately expand her influence, and possibly her lifespan. I imagine her being so ecstatic to undermine Szazz that she is willing to grant this otherwise unimaginable boon to this otherwise nondescript group of transients; they provided her with more knowledge, more leverage, and access to more power than her family has had in two millenia... allowing these adventurers using these books once is a minor issue. (Now, that is, of course, assuming they don't piss her off and/ or betray her.)

So, unless I'm building an untenable situation (I'm still fairly new to DMing) that I'm going to regret later, I can definitely justify why/ how Syranna would have these books, and why she would allow the party access to them. (Rereading my original post, I see that I failed to make it clear that at no point were they going to TAKE these books; simply have access to them.)

Which raises the question... is it overpowered? By "bounded accuracy math", are you referring to the fact that the game is calibrated and balanced to +5 modifiers or less? Being slightly overpowered is not a major concern with this group; we just do this largely for the ridiculousness and the lulz; we spend as much time laughing about 80s music videos as we do rolling dice. I don't think anyone would complain about having +6 modifiers and agreeing to leave them alone until lvl 20+.

Anyway, I appreciate the input, and I would always appreciate more strategies on how to balance and structure these more nuanced aspects of DMing. On the one hand, these "campaigns in a can" from The Yawning Portal et al are much easier to run... but I also like to explore a bit more of the imaginative and inventive aspects of the game.

[Angelalex242]

Anyone with a full set of books is probably a king or an archmage or an archpriest or something. They aren't going to let anyone but their successor read them.

[Greywander]

In a way these items don't really make sense to me. I don't understand why a party of adventurers would ever find them unspent? I would assume that whoever used to have them had already read the book and used its magic. They probably have 20 or 30 years left before they can be read again, and that's being generous. The only context I can think of that players would get access to these in a usable form would be if they found them in an abandoned location, or if an NPC had been specifically holding on to them so that a great hero could use them (which seems a bit contrived, but fits the high fantasy tropes).

I mean, how often are you really going to come across these when they haven't already been used within the last century? You're almost better off finding a way to craft them yourself, or getting to 20th level and spending your epic boons to boost your ability scores up to 30 without needing the tomes/manual.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I think the books are a neat reward. They're something akin to a general's book on tank warfare you can once a century. If it bumps your Wisdom modifier by +1 it makes you 5% better at things which involve your Wisdom modifier.

5%

Not nothing, but any aspiring general should read it but still, 5%.

Like a book on batting raising your average from .300 to .315.

So I don't think they're game breaking.

But why would they be unread.....you could have it be near the century mark where they are readable again and have the giver KNOW this is a pretty big deal and treat it like so.

I wonder what the gold piece reward would be....

[LordEntrails]

I think your story and the reasoning behind the books not being used works. A full set is a huge benefit, even them just using it once. Do you have 6 characters? Are the players going to have trouble deciding who gets what book to read?

But, it's not going to ruin the campaign balance. If you did something like this all the time, then it might cause balance challenges, but a major reward like this once per tier will be fine.

[Tanarii]

In a way these items don't really make sense to me. I don't understand why a party of adventurers would ever find them unspent? I would assume that whoever used to have them had already read the book and used its magic. They probably have 20 or 30 years left before they can be read again, and that's being generous. The only context I can think of that players would get access to these in a usable form would be if they found them in an abandoned location, or if an NPC had been specifically holding on to them so that a great hero could use them (which seems a bit contrived, but fits the high fantasy tropes).Because D&D traditionally involves a lot of raiding lost tombs, ruins, and other places of that ilk. Of course, YCMV.

[Matrix_Walker]

Agreed. These items are usually found resting with 100 years+ of dust on them or buried in a dragon's horde.

It's your game tho...

[Pex]

In a way these items don't really make sense to me. I don't understand why a party of adventurers would ever find them unspent? I would assume that whoever used to have them had already read the book and used its magic. They probably have 20 or 30 years left before they can be read again, and that's being generous. The only context I can think of that players would get access to these in a usable form would be if they found them in an abandoned location, or if an NPC had been specifically holding on to them so that a great hero could use them (which seems a bit contrived, but fits the high fantasy tropes).

I mean, how often are you really going to come across these when they haven't already been used within the last century? You're almost better off finding a way to craft them yourself, or getting to 20th level and spending your epic boons to boost your ability scores up to 30 without needing the tomes/manual.

The 100 year downtime is gamespeak for only one PC can benefit from the book, once. It is a special treat the DM is giving the PC. It should be a special occasion of circumstance to receive it, but there's no need to justify it off camera.

[Keravath]

Stat increasing tomes and books are legendary magic items. As mentioned it would be extremely unlikely to ever be offered as a reward unless you were saving the world.

The only exception is if you are playing in a high magic world. D&D 5e is designed around a very low level of magic which keeps the maximum AC, maxium to hit bonuses, maximum DC for spells and maximum saving throws in a relatively small range. In previous versions of the game, a horde of low level characters would stand no chance against a level 20. In 5e this is no longer true. A party of level 5 characters can be a significant threat to a level 20 character or monster depending on the circumstances. This is the effect of "bounded accuracy". Stat increases from tomes make the character significantly more effective for their given level than is normally within the range of possibility for the character. On the other hand, if you run a high magic world in which the characters have +3 weapons, +3 shields, +3 armor and other legendary magic items then a few more isn't going to change things that much.

Finally, the end goal of Dead in Thay is to destroy certain items belonging to the lich in charge of the Red Wizards. Accessing the room is very difficult and it might not be surprising if extremely valuable treasure like a tome might also be found in that room. So if you really want to have this item fall into the players hands you might just add it to the vault at the end of the adventure. It might even be possible that the secret goal of the person sponsoring the characters efforts is to recover this item for their own use.

[Asmotherion]

If you are running the kind of game that might do this... tomes are a good item to Curse. Would you use one if it’s original writer automatically Charmed or Gaesed you? Or if it ate away at your lifespan?

Yes! That's more like it! Thank you!

We're talking about Thayan Politics Here, and Freebie Very Rare Magical Items nontheless. If players don't get suspicious about a permanent Dominate or Charm Person at the very least, masked behind a gift like that, they would have it coming.

Give them the items, make them view the "gifter" under a new light after reading it:

"After you finish reading the book, you come to one realisation; [Name], the same person who gifted you the books fits to the descriptions of all the ideals described, not only in the book, but also in other ancient Lore as well; She is destined to be the Queen, and your Deity must have put you in her path to help her get rid of the Lich Zulkirs. It's more than Fate; It's Destiny. Should you be able to help her obtain the Throne, you're sure you will have a permanent place in your Deitie's Destined Afterlife, and Glory to your Name. (Change concept depending on different alignments)."

[Angelalex242]

Yes! That's more like it! Thank you!

We're talking about Thayan Politics Here, and Freebie Very Rare Magical Items nontheless. If players don't get suspicious about a permanent Dominate or Charm Person at the very least, masked behind a gift like that, they would have it coming.

Give them the items, make them view the "gifter" under a new light after reading it:

"After you finish reading the book, you come to one realisation; [Name], the same person who gifted you the books fits to the descriptions of all the ideals described, not only in the book, but also in other ancient Lore as well; She is destined to be the Queen, and your Deity must have put you in her path to help her get rid of the Lich Zulkirs. It's more than Fate; It's Destiny. Should you be able to help her obtain the Throne, you're sure you will have a permanent place in your Deitie's Destined Afterlife, and Glory to your Name. (Change concept depending on different alignments)."

Player: *Yawn* Wisdom or Charisma save?

[Asmotherion]

Player: *Yawn* Wisdom or Charisma save?
Probably Wisdom, with a DC 18, and repetable any time something that does not "feel right" to the player happens.


Oh the horror of abomination to give a PC a nice treat without a Curse. No, they must always be punished for getting a Nice Thing.

I see it more as a Quest Hook wile they get the reward at the same time. The campain will advance differently if they fail the save, if they succeed, or if only half the party succeeds. It's a good oportunity to involve them further in Thayan politics, one way or the other, having a grudge against a former ally, potentially discover she was fraimed etc etc.

On the other hand, I'm a big fan of Gritty Realism and High Fantasy/High Magic Mixed Together, so it might just be an approach of personal taste. Kinda like approaching a Sword and Sorcery campain in a perspective of Wand and Sorcery instead: Everyone is a Spellcaster, but the Bad Guys are the really powerful ones at inhuman levels, and the players are just the average spellcasters (at least untill they hit high enough level). Think of the feeling Dark Sun gives off, but instead not (secesserally) in a post apocaliptic world/setting.

All in all, I'm just inputing my personal point of view, and probably am a bit enthousiastic about it. If I sound like I impose my game views on others, I appologise. That was not my intention at all.

[Naanomi]

Player: *Yawn* Wisdom or Charisma save?
No save, the Magic was string enough to permanently alter your stats... it altered your mind at the same time. At the very least, go find someone to cast Remove Curse on you (and lose the stats at the same time... the magic is a package deal)

Wouldn’t work in every campaign, cursed items are like that

[Greywander]

The 100 year downtime is gamespeak for only one PC can benefit from the book, once. It is a special treat the DM is giving the PC. It should be a special occasion of circumstance to receive it, but there's no need to justify it off camera.
I realize this, it just irks me with how obvious it is about it. I can't help but feel like there's another way to do this that does a better job of maintaining verisimilitude, then again part of the problem is the effect itself; there's really no reason the previous owner wouldn't have used it, unless there were incapable of using it for some reason. I guess you could say that, even with the 100 year limit, the same person couldn't use it more than once, ergo if the same person has had it for more than 100 years it's likely recharged and the owner can't use it again but doesn't want to get rid of it.

That said, I feel like you could hand some of these out that have already been used, as they can be sold or given to other NPCs for favors or trade. It would help with the verisimilitude, and make the rare unspent one seem that much better.

[Tanarii]

I guess you could say that, even with the 100 year limit, the same person couldn't use it more than once, ergo if the same person has had it for more than 100 years it's likely recharged and the owner can't use it again but doesn't want to get rid of it.Thats basically giving out the bonus to every PC in your campaign. Or at least every one that can afford to buy it for the markup each one charges the next PC he sells it to.

[Greywander]

Thats basically giving out the bonus to every PC in your campaign. Or at least every one that can afford to buy it for the markup each one charges the next PC he sells it to.

even with the 100 year limit
Of course, the PC is free to try and convince another PC that it's totally worth it and will be totally sweet when he/she can read the book and gain its power in 100 years. I don't see a problem here, but then again I might have failed my Insight check, it sounds like a good deal to me.

[Tanarii]

Of course, the PC is free to try and convince another PC that it's totally worth it and will be totally sweet when he/she can read the book and gain its power in 100 years. I don't see a problem here, but then again I might have failed my Insight check, it sounds like a good deal to me.oh my bad, I misunderstood. Thought you were saying the next guy could read it within 100 years, that it was 100 years per person.

[Greywander]

No problem, please forgive my silly response. But yeah, the book could still only be read once every 100 years, but the added restriction would be that it couldn't be read by the same person twice. Thus, there would be a justifiable reason for someone to be holding on to the book without reading it (because they already read it, and can't do so again). Not saying this is a good idea, but at least it tries to explain why you'd be able to find one that hadn't been used recently.

[DnDegenerates]

Adventurer's League, 5e's organized play, is considered an attempt at maintaining balance so that thousands of players can sit down at any table without overshadowing others or making adventures seem trivial.

Tomes appear in adventures in tier 3&4. Levels 11-16 and 17-20.

Out of maybe one hundred adventures, perhaps 3 or 4 have a tome as the single magical item rewards for a 4hr quest.

Strength and Dex tomes aren't yet in any adventures, as they are particularly strong, especially Dex. Also, strength based characters tend to have more magical items available than casters (armor, weapons, armor class boosters, etc) with or without attunement.

[Matrix_Walker]

Due to the prevalence of logical and logistical blocks to the existence of the collection of unused books, I would recommend granting the benefit in an alternative way.

Maybe they have access to a magical tree that's fruit raises your primary stat by 2, and you can only benefit from it once...

The tree could be kept secret and safe, and the fruit could be given as great reward boons without the hassle of the tomes.