help finding "Watering down your beer is an Evil act" source

[Venger]

In some 3.5 book, there's a section pontificating about alignment. It talks briefly about how since the alignment system does not incorporate degrees of severity, someone such as an innkeeper who waters down his beer may still ping as Evil on detect evil and cautions you against murdering him in the street like a dog.

I have searched all places I considered likely sources (boed, bovd, champions of ruin, the fiendish codices) to no avail.

Does anyone know what book and page this passage is on?

(I am not interested in making an alignment thread or starting an argument on whether watering down your beer is Evil, I just want a reference for this quote)

[Kish]

Sure it was a book, not a blog post (http://keith-baker.com/eberron-flashback-good-and-evil/)?

[Venger]

Sure it was a book, not a blog post (http://keith-baker.com/eberron-flashback-good-and-evil/)?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was a book that used the same example baker does, and I don't think I've read this article before. If no source makes itself apparent, then that might've been it.

[Celestia]

So, I guess the alignment system was designed by dwarves.

[Venger]

That's the real reason it's called oathbeer

[The Glyphstone]

My guess would be that the 'crime' here is either lying by watering the beer and selling it as regular beer, and/or cheating by charging the price of regular beer and providing watered beer. So it's not specifically the act of watering beer that is evil, but doing so in a commercial sense without the customer knowing the beer is watered down.

As for the quote, I also remember it but I can't remember where it was either.

[Venger]

My guess would be that the 'crime' here is either lying by watering the beer and selling it as regular beer, and/or cheating by charging the price of regular beer and providing watered beer. So it's not specifically the act of watering beer that is evil, but doing so in a commercial sense without the customer knowing the beer is watered down.

Sure, that much is known, I just was curious where (or if, apparently) this appeared in print.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The only thing that leaps to mind is the subjective alignment segment in Heroes of Horror. Haven't checked so I could be wrong but that strikes me as the most likely place.

[Venger]

The only thing that leaps to mind is the subjective alignment segment in Heroes of Horror. Haven't checked so I could be wrong but that strikes me as the most likely place.

I gave it a look. It doesn't have this example, but does indeed express the same sentiment.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, this example rings a bell with me too.

Just checked Elder Evils, Exemplars of Evil, Complete Champion and Complete Divine. No luck.

Also had a search through the online archives, not getting any results.

[Kobold Esq]

The concept still makes sense to me. If you have an otherwise generally neutral person who constantly cheats people (but only for small amounts) at some point their alignment will shift to evil.

[JNAProductions]

Check BoVD and BoED, maybe?

[unseenmage]

Am away from books at the moment but I wanted to mention that Power of Faerun has some text about alignments and commercial endeavors scattered about. Might be another source of alignment examples at least.

[Malimar]

There's an offhand mention in this WotC article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a), also by Keith Baker. Judging from him using that same example twice, I'd suggest perusing some Eberron books.

[Thurbane]

I've been doing some more online searches, and I've seen this very topic mentioned on several gaming forums, but not been able to locate a book source.

As an aside, I did discover that watering down beer in ancient Babylon was often punishable by death...

[Seto]

There's an offhand mention in this WotC article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a), also by Keith Baker. Judging from him using that same example twice, I'd suggest perusing some Eberron books.

Away from books, so I can't back up my post with quotes. But from the sounds of that quote, I'd also look at Eberron, where the split between G, N and E is about 1/3rd each of the population, and so a dishonest bartender or a petty bully would conceivably be Evil. It's not a universal model of alignment. The default assumption in Greyhawk and several other settings, I think, is that Good and Evil are significant deviations from the norm and an overwhelming majority of NPCs are Neutral.

[Oracle71]

As an aside, I did discover that watering down beer in ancient Babylon was often punishable by death...

That's because in the ancient world, beer was often used as a form of currency, or at least it was used as part of a laborer's wages. Watering it down would have been the equivalent of fraud, at the very least.

[Zanos]

This does sound familiar to me too.


As an aside, I did discover that watering down beer in ancient Babylon was often punishable by death...
Makes sense. A Miller with his finger found on the scales would have the whole hand swiftly removed, no? It's just another form of stealing, really.

[Luccan]

That's because in the ancient world, beer was often used as a form of currency, or at least it was used as part of a laborer's wages. Watering it down would have been the equivalent of fraud, at the very least.

Further, beer contained calories and could be cleaner than water. It's been argued ancient beer was more likely a gruel than a beverage.

[Air0r]

Are we sure this isn't a case of the Mandela Effect?

[WhamBamSam]

I'd look in Eberron setting books (probably ECS or PGtE), as mentioned, or possibly the DMGs. It's probably tucked away amidst general demographic information, because that's where it would be pointed out that 1/3 of the population has evil alignment.

[Thurbane]

I've checked Power of Faerun and Player's Guide to Eberron with no luck.

[Venger]

I'd look in Eberron setting books (probably ECS or PGtE), as mentioned, or possibly the DMGs. It's probably tucked away amidst general demographic information, because that's where it would be pointed out that 1/3 of the population has evil alignment.

I have checked all of those books under the same general thought process.

[hamishspence]

The Alignment section of ECS didn't mention watering beer, but it did mention innkeepers:


"In a world where characters have access to magic such as detect evil, it's important to keep in mind that evil people are not always killers, criminals, or demon worshippers. They mights be selfish and cruel, always putting their interests above those of others, but they don't necessarily deserve to be attacked by adventurers. The self-centered advocate is lawful evil, for example, and the cruel innkeeper is neutral evil."


Quintessential Paladin II (third party) discussed various percentage breakdowns for alignment, including "1/3" and described what "1/3 of the population is evil" would actually mean:


Low Grade Evil Everywhere

"In some campaigns, the common population is split roughly evenly among the various alignments - the kindly old grandmother who gives boiled sweets to children is Neutral Good and that charming rake down the pub is Chaotic Neutral. Similarly the thug lurking in the alleyway is Chaotic Evil, while the grasping landlord who throws granny out on the street because she's a copper behind on the rent is Lawful Evil.

In such a campaign up to a third of the population will detect as Evil to the paladin. This low grade Evil is a fact of life, and is not something the paladin can defeat. Certainly he should not draw his greatsword and chop the landlord in twain just because he has a mildly tainted aura. It might be appropriate for the paladin to use Diplomacy (or Intimidation) to steer the landlord toward the path of good but stronger action is not warranted.

In such a campaign detect evil cannot be used to infallibly detect villainy, as many people are a little bit evil. if he casts detect evil on a crowded street, about a third of the population will detect as faintly evil."


The default assumption in Greyhawk and several other settings, I think, is that Good and Evil are significant deviations from the norm and an overwhelming majority of NPCs are Neutral.

Problem is, the PHB specifically says "Humans tend toward no alignment, not even Neutral". Having the overwhelming majority of NPCs be this would contradict the PHB.


There's an offhand mention in this WotC article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a), also by Keith Baker. Judging from him using that same example twice, I'd suggest perusing some Eberron books.

The second one of the two Silver Flame Dragonshard articles, provides the "odds are good that 3 out of 10 commoners are evil" quote:

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a

"In a crowd of ten commoners, odds are good that three will be evil. But that doesn't mean they are monsters or even killers -- each is just a greedy, selfish person who willingly watches others suffer. The sword is no answer here; the paladin is charged to protect these people. Oratory, virtue, and inspiration are the weapons of the paladin -- though intimidation may have its place."

[Ellrin]

Problem is, the PHB specifically says "Humans tend toward no alignment, not even Neutral". Having the overwhelming majority of NPCs be this would contradict the PHB.

I read that to mean that humans have no default inborn alignment tendencies, the way most races in Greyhawk do; in practice, most humans are still going to wind up neutral, because that's (a) the easiest alignment to practice, and (b) what most societies will lead most of their participants towards.

[hamishspence]

Going by the Population Centre demographics in Cityscape, something like 30% of settlements of Large Town size or larger, (presumed to be human-dominated unless specified otherwise) will be "Evil" taking the overall alignment of the settlement as a whole.

Halflings do have a "default inborn alignment tendency" of TN, and still a portion of Halfling Power Centers will be Evil (Races of the Wild).


For humans, the figure should be expected to be much higher. And population alignment tends to follow power centre alignment -especially if the power has been in power for a long time.



I gave it a look. It doesn't have this example, but does indeed express the same sentiment.

Heroes of Horror, when discussing using alignment as written, while keeping tension and mystery:


"So what if the PCs can detect alignment? Surely the deranged killer, the foreign assassin, or the cultist of Demogorgon are not the only evil people in town. Can the heroes just go out and start killing? It's highly unlikely that the city watch would take kindly to that. For that matter, alignment-detecting spells probably aren't admissible as evidence of wrongdoing in most D&D-setting societies. After all, being evil doesn't necessarily make someone a lawbreaker (particularly if the character is lawful evil). Combine that with the fact that so many means exist for misdirecting or fooling these spells, and the law has probably written off alignment-detecting spells as circumstantial evidence at most. PCs who assume they can attack the suspected villain openly because he triggered the paladin's sense of evil may well find themselves on the wrong side of a dungeon door."

The DMG (and SRD) also had a similar bit, on how Local Law Enforcement disapproves of vigilante justice in any case:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#urbanAdventures

Law Enforcement
The other key distinctions between adventuring in a city and delving into a dungeon is that a dungeon is, almost by definition, a lawless place where the only law is that of the jungle: Kill or be killed. A city, on the other hand, is held together by a code of laws, many of which are explicitly designed to prevent the sort of behavior that adventurers engage in all the time: killing and looting. Even so, most cities’ laws recognize monsters as a threat to the stability the city relies on, and prohibitions about murder rarely apply to monsters such as aberrations or evil outsiders. Most evil humanoids, however, are typically protected by the same laws that protect all the citizens of the city. Having an evil alignment is not a crime (except in some severely theocratic cities, perhaps, with the magical power to back up the law); only evil deeds are against the law. Even when adventurers encounter an evildoer in the act of perpetrating some heinous evil upon the populace of the city, the law tends to frown on the sort of vigilante justice that leaves the evildoer dead or otherwise unable to testify at a trial.