Solars and Class Levels

[AlanBruce]

Greetings! I was reading Complete Divine the other day after a long time and came across the Chapter on deities.

The Core Pantheon as presented in the PHB is detailed in much the same way as Deities & Demigods, but without the stat block, for which I am grateful.

What caught my attention where the Heralds. each god has one, usually an outsider. To my knowledge, these cannot be summoned (probably called via Gate or Greater Planar ally. Still, it's fun to know you aren't getting some washed down Aspect of a deity, but a somewhat unique individual that hopefully represents the god it acts as Herald for.

This brings me to Pelor, whom the book says that he sends a Solar as his herald.

Sure, the Solar alone is perhaps one of the most powerful non deity creatures in all the books, but being a herald to Pelor, I looked at thematic classes that may fit a messenger of the Sun God.

So in the end, I used the elite array and built a Solar Cleric 1/ Radiant Servant of Pelor 5

This gives the Solar 28HD and through racial HD alone and the truck load of skill points and rearranging some feats, I got it to qualify into the PrC rather easily.

Now, Solars off the bat, cast as 20th level clerics (just the casting part- no Turning to my knowledge). And even though they have access to a number of domains plus any of their deity, I was unsure if they would benefit from the granted powers of each domain before a cleric level is tacked on.

So, my question is:

Is that 20th level cleric casting added to the 6 levels of cleric and RSoP? That would make the Solar cast as a 26th level cleric.

Or is that a separate pool and he casts 9ths as a Solar, but 3rd level spells as a Cleric. In other words, should I have 2 separate tables for its spellcasting or everything merges into one?

Thank you very much in advance.

[Celestia]

Racial spellcasting as a class stacks with levels of that class, so your solar casts as a cleric 26.

[AlanBruce]

Racial spellcasting as a class stacks with levels of that class, so your solar casts as a cleric 26.

Thank you very much for the quick response! That would make him a very powerful cleric. Will have to look at Epic Spellcasting probably, but I try to stay away from that book as well.

Oddly enough, some heralds are pathetically weak when compared to Heralds from gods of equal power.

Gruumsh sends a 20th level fiendish barbarian orc in his behalf.

Corellon, his arch nemesis, sends a 20th level celestial elf cleric.

I wonder who would trounce who there...

[Eldariel]

Thank you very much for the quick response! That would make him a very powerful cleric. Will have to look at Epic Spellcasting probably, but I try to stay away from that book as well.

Oddly enough, some heralds are pathetically weak when compared to Heralds from gods of equal power.

Gruumsh sends a 20th level fiendish barbarian orc in his behalf.

Corellon, his arch nemesis, sends a 20th level celestial elf cleric.

I wonder who would trounce who there...

This is just because WotC didn't really intend for level 20 casters to be about 200 times more powerful than level 20 warriors.

[Doctor Awkward]

Thank you very much for the quick response! That would make him a very powerful cleric. Will have to look at Epic Spellcasting probably, but I try to stay away from that book as well.

Oddly enough, some heralds are pathetically weak when compared to Heralds from gods of equal power.

Gruumsh sends a 20th level fiendish barbarian orc in his behalf.

Corellon, his arch nemesis, sends a 20th level celestial elf cleric.

I wonder who would trounce who there...



Note that the Epic Rules are a mess when considering how they should apply to fully monstrous characters.

According to the 3.5 DMG on page 209:

The epic rules in this section also work for monsters with character
levels, using the creature’s effective character level (ECL)
instead of just its class levels. For example, a bugbear (3 Hit Dice
and +2 level adjustment) that is also a 14th-level fighter/3rdlevel
blackguard is ECL 22 and thus gains an epic attack and
save bonus.
The Monster Manual has level adjustments for many monsters
appropriate for use as characters. Use these modifiers to estimate
appropriate modifiers for other nonstandard PC races that you
might choose to include.

So a solar with 22 racial hit dice is already considered an epic character (and thus would already qualify to have one of his non-racial bonus feats be changed for an epic feat).

But his stat block doesn't jive with the normal epic rules on page 206, which state that, "A character’s base save bonus does not increase after his character level reaches 20th. However, he does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws every even-numbered level after 20th, as shown on Table 6–18: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses." with a similar rule for attack bonuses.

So if a Solar is considered an epic character based solely on his ECL from his racial hit dice, then his BAB in his stat block should be 21, not 22.

If he does NOT use the epic character rules until he acquires class levels, as the DMG seems to suggest, then his racial hit dice would apparently continue to accrue BAB and saves as normal. But he would not be eligible for epic feats (which are restricted to epic characters).

Ultimately it's a judgement call as a DM. And the difference between him having 3 epic feats and 2 epic feats if you are going to add class levels anyway.

[Remuko]

Note that the Epic Rules are a mess when considering how they should apply to fully monstrous characters.

According to the 3.5 DMG on page 209:


So a solar with 22 racial hit dice is already considered an epic character (and thus would already qualify to have one of his non-racial bonus feats be changed for an epic feat).

But his stat block doesn't jive with the normal epic rules on page 206, which state that, "A character’s base save bonus does not increase after his character level reaches 20th. However, he does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws every even-numbered level after 20th, as shown on Table 6–18: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses." with a similar rule for attack bonuses.

So if a Solar is considered an epic character based solely on his ECL from his racial hit dice, then his BAB in his stat block should be 21, not 22.

If he does NOT use the epic character rules until he acquires class levels, as the DMG seems to suggest, then his racial hit dice would apparently continue to accrue BAB and saves as normal. But he would not be eligible for epic feats (which are restricted to epic characters).

Ultimately it's a judgement call as a DM. And the difference between him having 3 epic feats and 2 epic feats if you are going to add class levels anyway.

Monsters in the ELH that dont have Class levels have Base Saves and Base Attack based on their RHD and dont use epic progression for them, but they still count as epic characters and qualify for epic feats. Hell even the sample Paragon Mind Flayer with only like 9 HD qualifies for Epic Feats. It only causes problems if you make it so.

[Doctor Awkward]

Monsters in the ELH that dont have Class levels have Base Saves and Base Attack based on their RHD and dont use epic progression for them, but they still count as epic characters and qualify for epic feats. Hell even the sample Paragon Mind Flayer with only like 9 HD qualifies for Epic Feats. It only causes problems if you make it so.

...which, once again, are more than a little bit of a complete mess.

When describing epic monsters in the beginning of the monster, they discuss the concept of Level Adjustment for the purposes of calculating Effective Character Level when determining EXP required for advancement when allowing players to play as monsters.

Their example of the winterwight rogue 1/sorcerer 3 assigns a wholly arbitrary level adjustment of 25 to the winterwight monster, with zero explanation for how they arrived at that. In the accompanying table the winterwight is listed with a CR of 23 and an ECL of 32 (equal to its hit dice).

At no point is it discussed how this might relate to CR for the purposes of qualifying for epic feats. Nor is the concept of CR in relation to Level Adjustment or hit dice discussed. None of this is touched on in the ELH 3.5 update booklet, or the 3.5 DMG. The rules are written entirely from the perspective of players running a character that is a non-standard monster with a level adjustment assigned by the DM and how such PC's would qualify for epic progression.

By the rules as written, a paragon creature is ineligible for epic feats unless they have class levels and their hit dice plus total class levels plus level adjustment exceeds 21.

[Remuko]

...which, once again, are more than a little bit of a complete mess.

When describing epic monsters in the beginning of the monster, they discuss the concept of Level Adjustment for the purposes of calculating Effective Character Level when determining EXP required for advancement when allowing players to play as monsters.

Their example of the winterwight rogue 1/sorcerer 3 assigns a wholly arbitrary level adjustment of 25 to the winterwight monster, with zero explanation for how they arrived at that. In the accompanying table the winterwight is listed with a CR of 23 and an ECL of 32 (equal to its hit dice).

At no point is it discussed how this might relate to CR for the purposes of qualifying for epic feats. Nor is the concept of CR in relation to Level Adjustment or hit dice discussed. None of this is touched on in the ELH 3.5 update booklet, or the 3.5 DMG. The rules are written entirely from the perspective of players running a character that is a non-standard monster with a level adjustment assigned by the DM and how such PC's would qualify for epic progression.

By the rules as written, a paragon creature is ineligible for epic feats unless they have class levels and their hit dice plus total class levels plus level adjustment exceeds 21.

I suppose. I just dont bother with RAW at the table most of the time, only in discussions on boards like this. We just ruled that ECL = or > 21 qualifies you for epic feats but you dont use any other epic stuff until you have 20+ HD. And even then if you have no class levels you just keep following standard BAB and Save progression until you take a class while your HD is 20+.

[Doctor Awkward]

I suppose. I just dont bother with RAW at the table most of the time, only in discussions on boards like this. We just ruled that ECL = or > 21 qualifies you for epic feats but you dont use any other epic stuff until you have 20+ HD. And even then if you have no class levels you just keep following standard BAB and Save progression until you take a class while your HD is 20+.

Oh definitely.
I think the important part for DM's is being aware of what the rules actually say so that you can head off potential conflicts before they start.

When you are aware of what situations the rules don't cover, you can decide up front how you want to run them in your games. And then inform your players beforehand, "Hey guys, since the rules don't explicitly cover <X>, here's how I am going to run it."

When a DM can make informed decisions and rulings, the players are more comfortable and confident in the game, knowing that when he does rule against them he isn't doing so arbitrarily.

[Remuko]

Oh definitely.
I think the important part for DM's is being aware of what the rules actually say so that you can head off potential conflicts before they start.

When you are aware of what situations the rules don't cover, you can decide up front how you want to run them in your games. And then inform your players beforehand, "Hey guys, since the rules don't explicitly cover <X>, here's how I am going to run it."

When a DM can make informed decisions and rulings, the players are more comfortable and confident in the game, knowing that when he does rule against them he isn't doing so arbitrarily.

Indeed, agree.