Can these be used at the same time

[Hunterx]

Psionic]
Psionic shor
You can charge your ranged attacks with additional damage potential.

Prerequisite
Point Blank Shot.

Benefit
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.

Psionic]
Fell shot
You can strike your foe with a ranged weapon as if making a touch attack.

Prerequisite
Dex 13, Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, base attack bonus +5.

Benefit
To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can resolve your ranged attack as a ranged touch attack.

You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus.

If they can not it makes no sense why one would be a pre foe the other. Second you are losing damage for striking that which you can increase easy enough any ways. So can they be used together and if not why? and is there a way to use them together.

[Celestia]

Not normally, no, as they both require you to expend your psionic focus. However, if you can obtain a second psionic focus, such as through Psicrystal Containment, then you can use them together.

[Necroticplague]

Assuming you have two psionic foci to burn, yes.

[Hunterx]

But why it does not sat to activate this feat, it says when you expend your psionic focus. Which in as I read it means that when you expend it you can activate both.

I do not see how or why you would ever take fell shot if you can not use it with psionic shot, lose damage just to hit no no no no no no no no no no no no and no.

[DeTess]

I do not see how or why you would ever take fell shot if you can not use it with psionic shot, lose damage just to hit no no no no no no no no no no no no and no.

Because sometimes you just really need to hit with a shot, and don't care about bonus damage from this feat. Maybe your arrow has been poisoned with a wound poison that you expect will do the job of killing your opponent, or maybe you're using some kind of magic arrow (slaying arrows come to mind).

[Hunterx]

no it is just stupid and makes no sense at all, since you can get a magical bow that does extra damage or that makes your ranged attack resolve as a touch attack

You see a bow 1D8 = x is crappy ass damage and the extra 2D6 makes it better and poison is o yeah a full round action to apply so that is a no go and most things will pass the save for poison but level 5 any ways

So I say that you can do both when you expend your focus now if the DM agrees then so be it because it is just stupid not to have that happen

[DeTess]

no it is just stupid and makes no sense at all, since you can get a magical bow that does extra damage or that makes your ranged attack resolve as a touch attack

You see a bow 1D8 = x is crappy ass damage and the extra 2D6 makes it better and poison is o yeah a full round action to apply so that is a no go and most things will pass the save for poison but level 5 any ways

So I say that you can do both when you expend your focus now if the DM agrees then so be it because it is just stupid not to have that happen

Most abilities are stupid if you don't try to use them for their intended purpose. Saying that fell shot is stupid in this context is like saying that 9th level spell slots are stupid because they don't grant bonus damage to magic missile. (This feat is nowhere near as powerful as a 9th level spell slot, but hyperbole gets the point across)

Anyway, if your DM rules that you can use both of those abilities together, that's fine. But it is a house-rule, and your DM is completely within his right to say 'no'.

[PacMan2247]

As has been stated, you can use two feats that require expending your psionic focus if you have two of them to expend, as with Psicrystal Containment. If you're playing an elan with Elan Retainment, you might be able to convince your DM to allow you to do it that way, but since that feat requires you to use an immediate action to retain focus, you can't technically use it in the middle of another action.

[Selene Sparks]

no it is just stupid and makes no sense at all, since you can get a magical bow that does extra damage or that makes your ranged attack resolve as a touch attack

You see a bow 1D8 = x is crappy ass damage and the extra 2D6 makes it better and poison is o yeah a full round action to apply so that is a no go and most things will pass the save for poison but level 5 any ways One thing I'm noticing here is that you seem to be dramatically underestimating (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) the merit of hitting on touch, and overestimating the value of 2d6 damage.

So I say that you can do both when you expend your focus now if the DM agrees then so be it because it is just stupid not to have that happenAs mentioned prior, that's a houserule. I'd also object to your characterization of it as "stupid," but if the GM approves and it goes over well in your group, go for it.

[Red Fel]

But why it does not sat to activate this feat, it says when you expend your psionic focus.

Actually false. It specifically says, "To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus." That's right there, in the language you quoted. Not "When you expend your psionic focus," but "To use this feat." Admittedly, it says "use" instead of "activate," but it still says it.

Here is what the SRD has to say about expending psionic focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm):
When you are psionically focused, you can expend your focus on any single Concentration check you make thereafter. When you expend your focus in this manner, your Concentration check is treated as if you rolled a 15. It’s like taking 10, except that the number you add to your Concentration modifier is 15. You can also expend your focus to gain the benefit of a psionic feat—many psionic feats are activated in this way.
Emphasis mine. The language "a psionic feat" suggests one, not multiple.

Additionally (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm):
Many psionic feats can be used only when you are psionically focused; others require you to expend your psionic focus to gain their benefit. Expending your psionic focus does not require an action; it is part of another action (such as using a feat). When you expend your psionic focus, it applies only to the action for which you expended it.
Emphasis mine. Therefore, when expending your psionic focus, you have to say for what action - that is, what specific single thing you're doing with it. That means activating one feat, in this case.

As others have said, if you gain the means to maintain two psionic foci, you can use these feats together. But by default, absent house rules, no, you cannot.

[Hunterx]

Psi crystal containment requires you to have a feat and to be a 3rd level manifester. This is not even close to what is going to be good.

Buy the way striking as a touch attack is fine enough it is still only 1d8 damage even with many shot and 2 arrows that makes it just a 2d8 damage wispy do da day since those arrows can not do critical damage only the first one can unless you have greater many shot so any char who just has the power points but now powers say like a Xeph.

[Necroticplague]

Psi crystal containment requires you to have a feat and to be a 3rd level manifester. This is not even close to what is going to be good.
Not being a third level manifester, have manifester level 3. You can have ML 3 without a single class level, such as a 6th-level-or-higher xeph.


Buy the way striking as a touch attack is fine enough it is still only 1d8 damage even with many shot and 2 arrows that makes it just a 2d8 damage wispy do da day since those arrows can not do critical damage only the first one can unless you have greater many shot so any char who just has the power points but now powers say like a Xeph.
Errr....can you clarify this? It comes across a bit as a word salad, and I can't figure out what you mean.

Since it's only one attack roll, Fell Shot actually combines well with Manyshot, letting you effectively make more attacks that are touch.

Yes, arrows don't do a lot of damage on their own, but that's not related to Fell Shot. All archers have that problem. And there are ways to try and fix that (Splitting to add more arrows, switching to the similar-but-more-damaging throwing weapons, using composite bows, GMW, Multitasking+Manyshot...).

[MaxMAnAtArms]

From what I can see here your wanting to double dip with only paying once.

Yes first one lets you do extra damage so
Psionic shor
You can charge your ranged attacks with additional damage potential.
Psionic Shot [Psionic]

You can charge your ranged attacks with additional damage potential.
Prerequisite

Point Blank Shot.
Benefit

To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage. You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus. So for point blank feat then this one you can hit vs AC to deal 2d6 extra damage. which is nice in its own way as long as you got the bab for it.

Now.. Fell Shot [Psionic]

You can strike your foe with a ranged weapon as if making a touch attack.
Prerequisite

Dex 13, Point Blank Shot, Psionic Shot, base attack bonus +5.
Benefit

To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can resolve your ranged attack as a ranged touch attack.

You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus. This one needs both Pointblank and Psionic shot to get to. this is attack vs Touch AC.

One this you might see in both and should be pointed out is You must decide whether or not to use this feat prior to making an attack. If your attack misses, you still expend your psionic focus. So to make it simple. You first must choose to use the skill before the attack goes off. To use the skill you first must expend your psionic focus and then choose the skill you use. So 1 focus 1 attack choice.

[Hunterx]

This is the point I'm getting to. Mel trackers X not wear attack a and shock trooper at the same time but you can not Psionic shot and fell shot at the same time. This not even fair in game play mechanics or anything. So if melees can use the wording then so can ranged.

[DeTess]

This is the point I'm getting to. Mel trackers X not wear attack a and shock trooper at the same time but you can not Psionic shot and fell shot at the same time. This not even fair in game play mechanics or anything. So if melees can use the wording then so can ranged.

I haven't got a clue what you're trying to say in the boded part. Anyway, melee characters can't use the equivalent feats (psionic weapon and deep impact) together either.

The comparison with the shock trooper feat is also not relevant because ranged tactical feats (shocktrooper is a tactical feat) such as woodland archer can be combined with either fell shot or psionic shot (but not both, unless you've got two psionic foci) as well.

[Daefos]

This is the point I'm getting to. Mel trackers X not wear attack a and shock trooper at the same time but you can not Psionic shot and fell shot at the same time. This not even fair in game play mechanics or anything. So if melees can use the wording then so can ranged.

Apples and oranges. Shock Trooper does not require you to expend anything, it just has criteria you need to meet. If you needed to spend a swift action to activate Shock Trooper or Power Attack, you wouldn't be able to do both just by saying “I use my swift action”.

Because here’s what you’re refusing to accept: you can’t just decide to expend your Psionic Focus. You can lose it if you’re knocked out or something, sure. But you can’t just expend it for nothing, you need to expend it for something. And once you’ve expended it for that one thing, it’s gone. You can’t expend it on anything else until you get it back. End of story.

It doesn’t matter how “stupid” or “unfair” you think that is. You asked a rules question about a clear-cut issue, and you got a clear answer that explains why it doesn’t work. If you want it to work a different way, talk to your DM. Whining about it here isn’t going to help you anymore.

[Nifft]

Psi crystal containment requires you to have a feat and to be a 3rd level manifester. This is not even close to what is going to be good.

Being a high-level manifester is very, very good.

[Hunterx]

Not when your not playing a manifester. The Xeph is being used just for the racial feat Xeph clarity and to have the 1 power point that is needed to get the Psionic feats. So no it is not it is crap and not being able to tie these feats together severely cripples the build and lowers the damage to something that is so manageable nothing would worrying bout its.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

At this point its not can this work or does it work together. Its you complaining about something we as other players cant do anything for you. You asked if it works together and we have explained and told you its a no its not supposed to work together.
"Unfair or etc" not our priority or are ability to fix. Ask your GM to make a custom change for you or get 2 focuses.


TBH: At this point its just wanting to complain. :( Sorry the game mechanics and rules aren't working to your specific set up or wants man. If your Not doing a set up allowing you to get a high manifester level. Then change your build up and set up cause its not a working TO build and unless your GM/DM etc going to custom/special just for you its not working.

[Hunterx]

Like I have said the fact that power attack and shock trooper work together and the wording is the same idea expend something to do something, it makes no sense why that works and these feats do not. The idea is similar enough that you can see the compairison so if one works so should others of suck ideas that are close to the same.

[Nifft]

Like I have said the fact that power attack and shock trooper work together and the wording is the same idea expend something to do something, it makes no sense why that works and these feats do not. The idea is similar enough that you can see the compairison so if one works so should others of suck ideas that are close to the same.

If you want to know what the rules mean, we can help.

If you want to change what the rules mean, you should talk to your DM.

We can't make the rules work like you think they should -- only your DM has that power.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Like I have said the fact that power attack and shock trooper work together and the wording is the same idea expend something to do something, it makes no sense why that works and these feats do not. The idea is similar enough that you can see the compairison so if one works so should others of suck ideas that are close to the same.

I know what you mean. Why can't I expend my to-hit in order to get more sneak attack dice? Power attack works that way, so sneak attack should, too.

Man, it's almost like different people wrote these books, and they're for entirely different ways of doing things. It's SO WEIRD. :smallannoyed:

Or, it's like asking why you can't put chocolate syrup into beer. It goes in coffee fine, and they're both liquids you drink, after all.

[DeTess]

Like I have said the fact that power attack and shock trooper work together and the wording is the same idea expend something to do something, it makes no sense why that works and these feats do not. The idea is similar enough that you can see the compairison so if one works so should others of suck ideas that are close to the same.

Power attack and Shock trooper expressly work together because that is what they are designed to do. Shock trooper even expressly allows it: "To use this maneuver, you must charge and make the attack at the end of the charge using your Power Attack feat." I've also already explained that you can combine your psionic shots with any tactical feast as well, so this isn't a boon only for melee characters.

If you want to use power attack in a comparison, I'd compare it with stone power, another feat that allows you to exchange BaB for something else. And you can't spend the same point of BaB on both power attack and Stone power.

But I think you're going about this the wrong way. It seems you want to make a strong archer, so how about you open a new thread asking people for advise about what you can do within the rules, instead of complaining about what you can't?

[Hunterx]

That could be a good idea except I do not build the normal anything in this game and people tend to try and ulter what I'm working with instead of trying to assist in what im going for but I'll try it again and see what happens.

[Zombulian]

That could be a good idea except I do not build the normal anything in this game and people tend to try and ulter what I'm working with instead of trying to assist in what im going for but I'll try it again and see what happens.

We're not crushing your creativity. We actively encourage thinking outside the box. What we generally discourage (or rather, just tell you to talk to your DM about), is complaining about the rules not being exactly what you want them to be.

Also, your posts are reminiscent of a particularly caffeinated awakened squirrel. Lay off the coffee and use punctuation dude.

[tyckspoon]

That could be a good idea except I do not build the normal anything in this game and people tend to try and ulter what I'm working with instead of trying to assist in what im going for but I'll try it again and see what happens.

"What you are going for" either doesn't work, or you have failed to explain what you are actually going for. Which means you are going to have to try to go for something that does work, talk to your DM about altering the rules so it does work, or actually describe what you want to achieve so we can help you find a way to do it. Or you can keep complaining that you don't like the rules that currently exist.

[Khedrac]

Like I have said the fact that power attack and shock trooper work together and the wording is the same idea expend something to do something, it makes no sense why that works and these feats do not. The idea is similar enough that you can see the compairison so if one works so should others of suck ideas that are close to the same.

I think you are looking at the wrong analogy.

The Heedless Charge part of Shock Trooper literally does nothing unless one uses Power Attack - and then what it does is modify power attack making (some of) the penalty hit AC instead of attack bonus.

A better comparison to what you are trying to do would be the combined user of power attack and combat expertise. Both feats trade in attack bonus for something only those somethings are different - power attack grants damage and combat expertise grants AC.
Now suppose someone with both feats wants to trade for two points of damage and two points of AC (assuming a 1-handed weapon) - in this case they have to take four points off their attack bonus. They cannot trade the same point of attack bonus for both AC and damage because the feats are separate abilities.
This is what is happening with a single psionic focus.

[Hunterx]

I think you are looking at the wrong analogy.

The Heedless Charge part of Shock Trooper literally does nothing unless one uses Power Attack - and then what it does is modify power attack making (some of) the penalty hit AC instead of attack bonus.

A better comparison to what you are trying to do would be the combined user of power attack and combat expertise. Both feats trade in attack bonus for something only those somethings are different - power attack grants damage and combat expertise grants AC.
Now suppose someone with both feats wants to trade for two points of damage and two points of AC (assuming a 1-handed weapon) - in this case they have to take four points off their attack bonus. They cannot trade the same point of attack bonus for both AC and damage because the feats are separate abilities.
This is what is happening with a single psionic focus.

It does not say for both feats you must take a penalty to use them. It is a general statement saying if you take this say -2 BAB you can apply that to damage, AC. If it said, if you have another feat that requires you to take a penalty to use this feat as well then there is no fight. So I say with power attack and combat expertise if you take the -2 you get it to both not a -4 to get +2 to both. Now with the Psionic feats you need to become focused that is a full round actions unless you have the feat which you can not get till level 6 then it is a move action in which case you now have to pick damage or hit. With a bow any extra damage you get is money, but firing 4 arrows at one target to hit touch AC plus extra damage is even better. If this can not be done it is pointless .

[Daefos]

Of course! Any ability that says "you can gain benefit [x] by accepting penalty [y]" absolutely overlap so that you get an arbitrary number of [x]s for a single [y]. Yup, good thing the rules totally work that way. Just imagine if they didn't! Why, you'd have to choose what bonus to use based on the situation! So stupid!

And get this! My DM tried to tell me that I couldn't use the Shaken condition to fuel my Power Attack, Combat Expertise, and Stone Power feats, even though I was taking a -2 penalty! So unfair!

[Crake]

If you want to use power attack in a comparison, I'd compare it with stone power, another feat that allows you to exchange BaB for something else. And you can't spend the same point of BaB on both power attack and Stone power.

Well, actually, you can, because you aren't "spending" that point of bab. The feats allow you to take a penalty to your attack rolls, but the penalty cannot exceed your bab. If you have a bab of 3, you can power attack for -3 and stone power for -3, becasue both are limited by your bab, but neither reduces your bab.