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View Full Version : In a setting where sacrifice to the gods is common, what might NG deities accept?



MonkeySage
2018-04-07, 01:09 PM
In this setting I'm working on, pretty much all the gods accept some form of sacrifice- blood, life, time. One deity, the Goddess of Darkness, accepts the deepest secrets and most hidden thoughts of her followers.

But I can't see every neutral good deity accepting flesh and blood sacrifices. There are chaotic good deities that'll take a cow, and it'll be worked into great winter feasts held at temples. Evil gods are more likely to accept 'human' sacrifice, but there are also certain neutral gods that do.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-07, 01:14 PM
IMO, no non-evil deity should accept any sacrifice that involves pain, suffering, death of a "thinking feeling entity", or sacrifice of a free-willed being against that being's choice.

Frozen_Feet
2018-04-07, 01:14 PM
Anything evil.

Like, you trick a Demon to stand on the god's altar and shout "I offer this sacrifice!" And then the demon immolates as the god swoops up the offering, thus removing evil from the world.

Sick people could offer their diseases or pain. The god takes those, leaving them healthier and suffering less.

Xuc Xac
2018-04-07, 01:20 PM
Anything evil.

Like, you trick a Demon to stand on the god's altar and shout "I offer this sacrifice!" And then the demon immolates as the god swoops up the offering, thus removing evil from the world.

Sick people could offer their diseases or pain. The god takes those, leaving them healthier and suffering less.

It's not a sacrifice if it's something you want to get rid of. If the temple has a holy fire for burning sacrifices, the gods don't want you to use it as a trash barrel to get rid of your garbage.

8BitNinja
2018-04-07, 01:23 PM
Depends on what the diety rules over. If he is a god of agriculture, maybe wheat or another grain. If he is a god of war, maybe swords are donated to the treasury. I think it depends more on the domain than the alignment.

Frozen_Feet
2018-04-07, 01:26 PM
Nah. Sacrifices to gods are form of barter. What you feel of the thing being sacrificed is less relevant than what the god thinks. The sacrifices could be literal garbage, if the god thinks that's a worthy offering.

I'm answering the question from the viewpoint that the chief motive for an NG god is to increase goodness and do away with evil, so they'd purposefully ask for non-sensical things in order to remove evil from the world.

GrayDeath
2018-04-07, 01:28 PM
Hmmm, interesting question.

So, lets assume that ther Gods actually NEED sacrifice to function, as there is no other reason for a really NG Deaity to demand any Sacrifice.

As the maximum good is core for NG worldviews, it should be something that teaches the faithful something beneficial by being sacrificed, and does not harm them in any lasting (ideally not in short term ways either) way.

So normal: Lifestock, Money, personal items to which they have an unhealthily strong attachment.

More metaphysical: Wrath at somebody, Bad Memories, their own sufferings/Sickness, or even "Evil thoughts themselves.

Kaptin Keen
2018-04-07, 01:58 PM
In this setting I'm working on, pretty much all the gods accept some form of sacrifice- blood, life, time. One deity, the Goddess of Darkness, accepts the deepest secrets and most hidden thoughts of her followers.

But I can't see every neutral good deity accepting flesh and blood sacrifices. There are chaotic good deities that'll take a cow, and it'll be worked into great winter feasts held at temples. Evil gods are more likely to accept 'human' sacrifice, but there are also certain neutral gods that do.

I belive you're thinking about it in the wrong way.

Sacrifice is simply a tax you pay to keep the god in question on your side. Sure, sacrificing a sentient isn't anything you might be inclined to do - but even good people sometimes have to make hard choices. If you're crossing the ocean with an army - or a thousand refugees - and the God of the Seas asks for a life in exchange for safe passage, what responsible leader would sacrifice all for one?!

So it's a tax. Each god trades in their 'coin' - be it a goat, a pound of grain, gold coins, dye, incense, whatever.

An NG god of the harvest might ask for stalks of grain. An NG god of war might ask for the broken swords of enemies. Or the life of a champion. Victory is still 'good', right? As in, there are any 'good' outcomes to war, maybe, but none that don't involve a lot of killing.

Goaty14
2018-04-07, 02:34 PM
It's not a sacrifice if it's something you want to get rid of. If the temple has a holy fire for burning sacrifices, the gods don't want you to use it as a trash barrel to get rid of your garbage.

Ilmater would like to have a word (Faerun deity that takes the punishment of others).

It's probably hard to adjudicate what a NG deity wants, though I'd probably have it relate to their portfolio. I.e a goddess of art and bards wants works of poetry and art "sacrificed" to her temple, which looks like an art museum now, a god of hospitality might ask for the presence of travelers (as in, he can see that his followers are sacrificing their time to help out travelers), a goddess of food might want feasts donated to local taverns (again, time is sacrificed, but related to her portfolio).

THEChanger
2018-04-07, 02:38 PM
A NG deity asks for your time.

Especially in a world where secrets are a viable object to be sacrificed, I see the prime thing a deity devoted to Good asking of their followers is time spent in the service of Good. You take three hours every day/week/month to work in a kitchen, serving food to those less fortunate than yourself? There's a tithe. You spend a whole day in visible, public prayer, declaring the power of your god and the righteousness of their way of life? There's a tithe. Tending to the wounded and ill, doing pro-bono lawyer-ing, watching over a holy site or relic, any time spent furthering your deity's causes, in a capacity you would not otherwise do in your normal day to day, that's a sacrifice worthy of a Good deity.

Alternatively, certain deities might ask for things which bring you comfort, but which are not necessary. Your fine silk robe, your supple leather saddle that keeps you from chafing, that painting of yourself you adore. Giving up things to which you have sentimental attachment, but which hold no benefit to you or the community, represents your dedication to the deity and to Good. That's almost a more LG stance than a NG stance, but certain NG deities might have a similar system.

Mastikator
2018-04-07, 02:42 PM
Good deities would probably accept material and symbolic sacrifices. Like gold or art or books.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-07, 02:44 PM
Should deities even be good or evil, or should they operate along entire different lines?

(E: as in, does the god of the hunt care about whether you were nice to your neighbor, or does it care about how hunters go about hunting and whether they're skilled at it and so on?)

Should actually good deities demand sacrifices at all, especially in a society where many people live at what we'd consider a subsistence or poverty level?

Pleh
2018-04-07, 03:11 PM
The real question is: what is the sacrifice for? It can be a tax to demonstrate fealty, or it can be a symbol of a spiritual act.

Burning a moldy bedsheet can be symbolic of driving the influence of evil (possibly spirits) out of your home and property.

It doesn't have to be an actual demon being immolated, just something that could represent the demons in our lives could be enough.

MonkeySage
2018-04-07, 03:16 PM
In many cases, it's the priests that do most of the actual sacrificing. If it's a cow, it could be from temple lands, or from the wealthier farmers of the county. Gold tithes are given based on what can be given. In the example I gave earlier, Temples dedicated to the Goddess of Darkness have rooms set aside where the laity can confide their secrets to a priest. Priests are the representatives of the gods, and its their job to keep those gods happy. Poor peasants may not have to give anything other than time, or a few silvers.

Frozen_Feet
2018-04-07, 03:24 PM
Should deities even be good or evil, or should the operate along entire different lines?

Alien gods is just an invitation for one of the players to proclaim all the gods evil and go rage against the Heavens. You are exactly that sort of player.


Should actually good deities demand sacrifices at all, especially in a society where many people live at what we'd consider a subsistence or poverty level?

1) you missed the (fairly obvious) line of thought where the sacrifices are things the people could do without
2) you assume they have a choice.

ImNotTrevor
2018-04-07, 04:10 PM
Alien gods is just an invitation for one of the players to proclaim all the gods evil and go rage against the Heavens. You are exactly that sort of player.



1) you missed the (fairly obvious) line of thought where the sacrifices are things the people could do without
2) you assume they have a choice.

Max tends to approach these with "my particular modern moral sensibilities should apply to all settings in fiction" logic, which is not helpful for a discussion like this. Unless you're Vegan, sacrificing an animal is wildly different from sacrificing a person, for instance. So I see no reason why you can't sacrifice, say, a cow or sheep or chicken or dove. Someone with different moral sensibilities would disagree. Making blanket statements about what is and is not OK is not a helpful inclusion.

{Scrubbed}

So here's how I'd break down the distinction:

WHO BENEFITS?
Good: The person who performs the sacrifice receives the benefit.
Neutral: Mutual benefit most common, but Good or Evil framework can apply.
Evil: Deity benefits more than the individual who performs the sacrifice. Any boons given ultimately ALSO serve the deity.

WHAT IS EXPECTED?
Good: Whatever the person can afford. Judged by individual basis. Sacrifices come voluntarily either from the person themselves or from their property.
Neutral: Probably case-by-case.
Evil: Whatever the person manages to seize from others. Sacrifices are non-voluntary, and involve human victims in some way.

HOW IS IT DONE?
Lawful Gods have exact procedures and requests. Lawful Good may operate on percentages. (Sacrifice 5% of your crop)

Chaotic gods are more about the spirit of the thing. Sacrificing all you have, even when it is less than what others gave, gives a larger boon.
For chaotic evil, this would be less about how MANY you kill, and more about how much fervor you killed them with, and why. Gorthok might have killed 50 orphans, but Teshuub killed the 4 orphans that once bullied him in particularly greusome fashion. The God of Murder is more pleased with the latter than the former, because it was done with FEELING.


That's my take.

Frozen_Feet
2018-04-07, 04:27 PM
Took a while to find, but surprisingly relevant:



A priest from our village once travelled to faraway lands. He came across a village where one man had just died. They had placed his body in a coffin and his relatives were talking around it, begging him to come back or wishing him farewell.

Our priest was befuddled. He asked: "Why do you do that? He can't hear you. God has long since taken his soul to afterlife, what's in that coffin is just a piece of dirt."

People got angry at him and drove him away.

Later, our priest came across a tribe which was preparing a sacrifice to God. They walked out their fattest pig and slaughtered it. Again, our priest was confused. "Why do you do this? God is not here and even if he was, he can hunt his own food. He needs no sacrifice from you."

Again people got angry at him and drove him away.

Confused, our priest returned to God. "Oh Great Old One. These people act in bizarre and irrational ways. Please go to them and explain what they do is pointless."

In response, God took our priest's spirit on a journey. He took him back to the village and together they watched from afar. After each person had had their say to the corpse, people buried it and sang songs. Then they went and held a great feast, talking to and comforting each other. When night fell, all went home, relieved.

Then God took our priest back to the tribe, where they had begun roasting the pig. A shaman uttered a prayer dedicating the smoke from the meat to God, and then the pig was sliced and diced and the meat divided among the tribesmen. Each was given an even share and none returned home hungry.

"Do you see it now?", God asked his priest. "Funerals are not for the dead. Sacrifices are not for me."

Our priest bowed his head. "Aye, I see it now. I only heard their words but not their hearts. It is me who has been bizarre and irrational."

Next time our priest visited foreign lands, he was not driven away.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-07, 04:53 PM
More metaphysical: Wrath at somebody, Bad Memories, their own sufferings/Sickness, or even "Evil thoughts themselves.


That's something different to run with -- things that are hard for people to give up, that they'd never let go -- like a drowning man sometimes grabs into the leg of another, dragging them both down, according to the god's priests.

So extremes of jealousy, envy, grief, hate, etc. At the ceremony, each person is expected to give up some old grudge or spite or fear or whatever.

To the neighbors giving up their dispute over whose goats ate whose garden, it feels like they're letting go of something huge.

Becca Stareyes
2018-04-07, 04:56 PM
As others have mentioned, animal sacrifice could be for feeding the community, especially if most people are farmers. A cow is generally too useful to kill regularly for your average farmer (it provides milk and possibly labor), so beef is a luxury. Even a chicken may only be killed when it stops laying or if you have too many roosters for your flock and none of your neighbors needs one. Having a wealthy person sacrifice a cow to the temple, and the god takes the intangible parts of the sacrifice and the devotion, the community gets the physical body of the cow for a feast, and the wealthy person can show off that they are well-off enough to lose a cow. If your communities are willing to eat meat, it's not any less ethical for that.

Also, time (either in prayer or in tasks the god approves of). Song and art is the sort of thing that could easily work, or 'good works' and charity. {Scrubbed} And it could be that gods weigh sacrifice based on intangibles like 'how much is this person giving up', so a wealthy person is expected to be donating cows to the temple on feast days, but a poor farmer can just keep a shrine near the fire and offer a small bowl of food every dinner for a patron god, or give a basket of crops to the temple at harvest time.

Mastikator
2018-04-07, 05:05 PM
As others have mentioned, animal sacrifice could be for feeding the community, especially if most people are farmers. A cow is generally too useful to kill regularly for your average farmer (it provides milk and possibly labor), so beef is a luxury. Even a chicken may only be killed when it stops laying or if you have too many roosters for your flock and none of your neighbors needs one. Having a wealthy person sacrifice a cow to the temple, and the god takes the intangible parts of the sacrifice and the devotion, the community gets the physical body of the cow for a feast, and the wealthy person can show off that they are well-off enough to lose a cow. If your communities are willing to eat meat, it's not any less ethical for that.

Also, time (either in prayer or in tasks the god approves of). Song and art is the sort of thing that could easily work, or 'good works' and charity. {Scrubbed} And it could be that gods weigh sacrifice based on intangibles like 'how much is this person giving up', so a wealthy person is expected to be donating cows to the temple on feast days, but a poor farmer can just keep a shrine near the fire and offer a small bowl of food every dinner for a patron god, or give a basket of crops to the temple at harvest time.

Sacrificing a cow doesn't necessarily mean you don't eat it. There's a ritual involved where the cow is sacrificed in the deity's name. And then you eat the cow and the people who partook in the ritual sacrifice are protected from bad fortune and evil spirits.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-07, 05:08 PM
As others have mentioned, animal sacrifice could be for feeding the community, especially if most people are farmers. A cow is generally too useful to kill regularly for your average farmer (it provides milk and possibly labor), so beef is a luxury. Even a chicken may only be killed when it stops laying or if you have too many roosters for your flock and none of your neighbors needs one. Having a wealthy person sacrifice a cow to the temple, and the god takes the intangible parts of the sacrifice and the devotion, the community gets the physical body of the cow for a feast, and the wealthy person can show off that they are well-off enough to lose a cow. If your communities are willing to eat meat, it's not any less ethical for that.

Also, time (either in prayer or in tasks the god approves of). Song and art is the sort of thing that could easily work, or 'good works' and charity. {Scrubbed} And it could be that gods weigh sacrifice based on intangibles like 'how much is this person giving up', so a wealthy person is expected to be donating cows to the temple on feast days, but a poor farmer can just keep a shrine near the fire and offer a small bowl of food every dinner for a patron god, or give a basket of crops to the temple at harvest time.


Sacrificing a cow doesn't necessarily mean you don't eat it. There's a ritual involved where the cow is sacrificed in the deity's name. And then you eat the cow and the people who partook in the ritual sacrifice are protected from bad fortune and evil spirits.

I think that's what they said -- that the "congregation" eats the cow.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-07, 05:18 PM
The real question is: what is the sacrifice for? It can be a tax to demonstrate fealty, or it can be a symbol of a spiritual act.


The general question of "Why does the deity want sacrifices in the first place?" might be an important one here.

Is it somehow "important" to the functioning of the universe, and if so, why?

Do the deities just like having their egos stroked?

Is it the cosmological equivalent of a protection racket?

Mendicant
2018-04-07, 05:52 PM
{Scrubbed}

Pleh
2018-04-07, 07:02 PM
The general question of "Why does the deity want sacrifices in the first place?" might be an important one here.

Is it somehow "important" to the functioning of the universe, and if so, why?

Do the deities just like having their egos stroked?

Is it the cosmological equivalent of a protection racket?

Or it could be something with some more positive connotations.

{Scrubbed}

Nifft
2018-04-07, 07:50 PM
Sacrifice a debt that someone owes you.

It's a legit sacrifice, since otherwise you'd profit (or have the power to ruin someone).

It's also rather Good.

Kami2awa
2018-04-09, 04:57 PM
Sacrifice a debt that someone owes you.

It's a legit sacrifice, since otherwise you'd profit (or have the power to ruin someone).

It's also rather Good.

Really like this one. Might be a good way of getting rid of debts that are ruining lives and will never be repaid, like much debt IRL.

A sacrifice is usually either going to be meaningful (a valuable item such as a work of art or craft, or a resource such as food or money) or symbolic of something meaningful.

Spore
2018-04-09, 05:50 PM
Most divine rituals and rites should incorporate the central thought of the religion in question. Sacrifices are usually donations in that case. A god of healing would donate time and money to a hospital (or maybe spell components to rid some particularly nasty curses and magical compulsions). A god of duty and valor would accept a symbolic standing guard. Maybe a shield to equip the townguard with, or a piece of armor (as most complete armor sets are far too expensive for the common believer). A god of creativity and music would enjoy new songs or art. But I feel money is always welcome. To pay upkeep, to be a symbolic act to devote someone's time to the faith (because you usually need to invest time to get the money).

In a more metaphysical sense people could offer their literal belief (good force is often represented as a burning will - and many settings require gods to be worshipped in order for them to have any power, literally or figuratively), their soul to this god's afterlife (real life religions do just that with various coming of age ceremonies) or much more (I could see a devout noble sacrificing its soul to a demon in order to save his or her inferiors).

LibraryOgre
2018-04-09, 05:54 PM
Consider the possibility that sacrifices to them will be sacrifices that benefit other people. It might be cash (so the church can use it to help people), or you might have a large feast to which you invite EVERYONE. You invite all the homeless of the city, because you set enough to feed the entire city of Rome. That's the sacrifice of a neutral good person.

As Frozen Feet said, also consider the sacrifice of evil things... adventurers might sacrifice that evil magic item they found, but a less adventurous type might buy a slave and free it. Or pay for someone's medical care.

8BitNinja
2018-04-09, 11:22 PM
{Scrubbed}

Blacky the Blackball
2018-04-10, 01:06 AM
{Scrubbed}

S@tanicoaldo
2018-04-10, 08:23 PM
Gold, money, evil items.

I used a very similar plot point once.

The group just raided the Lich's old tower and got all the books and data they could to investigate the Lich's new epic spell and how to counter it.

The city's priest stole all the books and scrolls in the middle of the night and burned it all in the name of his good god.
His intention was good, grab these cursed books of forbidden lore before it corrupts the mind of some innocent person, but in the end he did more harm than good.

GungHo
2018-04-11, 11:50 AM
You touched it when you said "time". Time doing productive work for no direct pay. Like being the Fantastic United Way or Red Cross doing civic work like building out a school or re-dredging the river. What are the portfolios of the NG god? What means something to them? A god of commerce may appreciate the building of bridges, maintenance of roads, certification of scales. A god of hearths may appreciate maintaining homes or inns, and providing supplies for housing and feeding the homeless. A god of defensive war may appreciate maintenance of moats and walls and training the militia.

tomandtish
2018-04-12, 01:37 PM
The truth is, it depends on numerous factors. Even a life sacrifice might not be evil and might even be good) if it was voluntary and done because the benefits were worth the cost in the eyes of the one being sacrificed.

After all, even Torm (LG) accepted the sacrifice of some of his followers in his attempt to defeat Bane during the Time of Troubles.

"Your duty calls you," Torm roared from snarling lips of his new avatar. "There will be no pain. I would not bring suffering to my faithful. You need only accept your
destiny, and you will pass quietly."

In unison, a dozen worshipers cried, "Take us, Lord Torm!"

With expressions of complete bliss, the worshipers fell to the ground. From their gently parted lips, sky-blue mists flowed and rushed toward the God of Duty.

Torm opened his arms and embraced the souls, which lost their individual shapes and became a large pulsating mass of light. The lion-headed avatar absorbed the energy and started to
grow. Soon the cathedral was filled with corpses, and the fallen god towered over the proceedings, the golden avatar now nearly fifty feet tall. Soul energy flowed toward the
avatar from all across the city as word of the god's need spread. In the temple, Tenwealth and his fellow members of the council were among those who had not yet surrendered
their lives.

"So beautiful," one of the priests wept as he looked up at the golden avatar. "Yet no matter how strongly I wish to join Lord Torm, he will not accept my life!"

"We were such fools!" Tenwealth cried. "Forgive us, Lord Torm! Accept our sacrifice! Let us prove our loyalty!"

The lion-headed avatar stared down at the council members. He could feel their desire to join him and almost taste the anguish in their hearts now that they recognized the
price of their failure. Torm closed his eyes and opened his arms. Tenwealth and the rest of the Council of Torm died, and their soul energies rushed to the avatar's embrace. The God of Duty absorbed
the energy, let out a deep, loud roar, and pushed through the back wall of the temple. Then the lion-headed avatar went off in search of the God of Strife.

JoeJ
2018-04-12, 03:04 PM
i'd make animal sacrifice the default - the beast is killed, blood is sprinkled in the prescribed manner, the bones, skin, and guts are burned, and the meat is eaten in a celebratory feast. Any deity that doesn't have a specific reason to demand something else will accept that.

{Scrubbed}

comk59
2018-04-12, 03:38 PM
Another possibility is children

That is one heck of a way to start paragraph about NG sacrifices.

ufo
2018-04-12, 04:39 PM
It really depends on peoples' relationship to their god, I would say. Off the top of my mind, as others have mentioned, I'd say "your time" could apply in many different interpretations - such as the fruits of your labour whatever form they may take.

JoeJ
2018-04-12, 10:19 PM
That is one heck of a way to start paragraph about NG sacrifices.

LOL. And yet Artemis is described as NG in the 5e PHB. Sacrifice your children to the NG goddess of the hunt. Yay!

kraftcheese
2018-04-12, 10:34 PM
Maybe something like you have to sacrifice your labor or time helping maintain the god's temple if they're a god of work, maybe a symbolic tool or something you've made if they're a god of industry or craft, little symbolic bodies made out of sticks and twine, or carved figurines to represent a body, or food or cloth or honestly anything that isn't killing another being; get creative!

JoeJ
2018-04-13, 01:12 AM
{Scrubbed}

Adeon Hawkwood
2018-04-17, 06:49 PM
I tend to figure that for a Good deity sacrifices would be largely about supporting the priesthood and charitable works. So food that would be used to feed the priests and the homeless, money or labor donated for upkeep of the temples and charitable works things along those lines.

{Scrubbed}

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-18, 10:08 AM
Most divine rituals and rites should incorporate the central thought of the religion in question. Sacrifices are usually donations in that case. A god of healing would donate time and money to a hospital (or maybe spell components to rid some particularly nasty curses and magical compulsions). A god of duty and valor would accept a symbolic standing guard. Maybe a shield to equip the townguard with, or a piece of armor (as most complete armor sets are far too expensive for the common believer). A god of creativity and music would enjoy new songs or art. But I feel money is always welcome. To pay upkeep, to be a symbolic act to devote someone's time to the faith (because you usually need to invest time to get the money).

I tend to go with this line of thinking. These religious organizations clearly have a role within society, and hints that if the players are down on their luck they can trick/get help at them. Also solves the issue of how do temples get made, since it bugs me that sometimes it feels like temples sprout out of the ground with no economic basis in RPGs.

Also, if the players need the aid of a temple, it lays down the groundwork that the temple would request aid/valuable goods from them that could potentially be a drain on resources. Sure, they don't do that to the common folk, but the common folk don't ask for such huge favors or are the ones the temple is helping.

That, and I really don't trust my players if burning items sends them to the gods. Someone will find a way to break this. That, and the less fire, the better in the long run.

Xuc Xac
2018-04-18, 06:03 PM
All these replies saying things like "good gods would want you to 'sacrifice' time to help others" and so on just make me think of a priest rolling his eyes and saying "Oh how convenient! A definition of 'sacrifice' that doesn't involve livestock and getting your hands dirty!"

{Scrubbed}

Doing "good works" is something you do in addition to sacrifice, not as a substitute. You can't get out of paying taxes just because you're filling in potholes and shoveling sidewalks by yourself.

Corneel
2018-04-18, 06:16 PM
As for the reasons, it might be part of some Divine Compact: gods cannot intervene in the world unless they are paid for it in some way. And the larger the bending of the rules the bigger the payment should be.

LudicSavant
2018-04-18, 08:15 PM
{Scrubbed}

Nifft
2018-04-18, 09:51 PM
Gold, money, evil items.

How about sacrificing lawyers, guns, and money?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP5Xv7QqXiM

Roland St. Jude
2018-04-18, 09:58 PM
Sheriff: I'll leave this open, but please avoid real life religious references and discussion entirely, even if it's just mention of "real life religions," generally or name-checking specific religions.

Ovaltine Patrol
2018-04-19, 10:15 AM
Wine or other alcohol, incense or valuable spices could be valued as sacrifices to good gods. Perhaps people cutting off long hair or beards in a ritual fashion, as a representation of time spent and vanity shed.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-19, 11:04 AM
All these replies saying things like "good gods would want you to 'sacrifice' time to help others" and so on just make me think of a priest rolling his eyes and saying "Oh how convenient! A definition of 'sacrifice' that doesn't involve livestock and getting your hands dirty!"

Since many temples in RPGs double as barracks, fortresses, clinics, schools, or forums, maybe getting cow blood all over the place isn't a wise idea. I mean, I'm not a military man myself, but I assume that having to avoid puddles of blood during training is a bit of a bummer.

exelsisxax
2018-04-19, 12:17 PM
Embrace the dark magics of empiricism and sacrifice your ignorance like a suckling calf to further your power to command reality itself.

That kind a church probably has a library to do it in.

MonkeySage
2018-04-19, 12:30 PM
Sacrifices wouldn't necessarily have to be performed inside a temple- they could be performed in a town square or on temple grounds in a location entirely dedicated to ritual sacrifice.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-19, 12:37 PM
Sacrifices wouldn't necessarily have to be performed inside a temple- they could be performed in a town square or on temple grounds in a location entirely dedicated to ritual sacrifice.

You are entirely correct, but I still can't get the image of some animals coming by to share in the festivities. Some poor priest is fighting off a bear in a smaller town, another has to tell a dude to get his dog to go away, while another is trying to shoo off a vulture without getting vomitted on.

JoeJ
2018-04-19, 12:44 PM
Sacrifices wouldn't necessarily have to be performed inside a temple- they could be performed in a town square or on temple grounds in a location entirely dedicated to ritual sacrifice.

I usually design temples with the main altar outside, just in front of the big building with the statue of the god. That not only helps keep the temple cleaner but it also makes it easier to accommodate a crowd on high holy days. It does mean that priests sometimes have to work in the rain, though.

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-19, 12:46 PM
I usually design temples with the main altar outside, just in front of the big building with the statue of the god. That not only helps keep the temple cleaner but it also makes it easier to accommodate a crowd on high holy days. It does mean that priests sometimes have to work in the rain, though.

Archaeologically, there are some instances where what looks like an outdoor temple based on ruins or the solid remaining structure, actually had something like an awning or other protection from the rain. I'd link to examples, but.

Honest Tiefling
2018-04-19, 12:55 PM
IIRC, that was the case for the coliseum, which many people think was an open air structure. Most were built so that the awning kept the more expensive seats in the shade but not necessarily the cheap ones. Through that was more for the sun than rain, because Mediterranean climate means that rain isn't as huge of a factor for a good portion of the year.

Through I could see some nature or endurance deities telling the priests to suck it up.

JoeJ
2018-04-19, 01:03 PM
Archaeologically, there are some instances where what looks like an outdoor temple based on ruins or the solid remaining structure, actually had something like an awning or other protection from the rain. I'd link to examples, but.

Something like that could be done, but in my world they usually don't want to interfere with the smoke from the sacrificial fire going up to the gods. That's not true of all deities, however. For Moraneth, the sea god, they just drown a bull or whatever in the ocean. (No fire is allowed in his temples, so burning the offering is out of the question.)

Corneel
2018-04-19, 02:33 PM
Something like that could be done, but in my world they usually don't want to interfere with the smoke from the sacrificial fire going up to the gods. That's not true of all deities, however. For Moraneth, the sea god, they just drown a bull or whatever in the ocean. (No fire is allowed in his temples, so burning the offering is out of the question.)

And for Earth deities they could bury the sacrifice alive. (And the sacrifices for love deities are of course killed softly. With love.).

Max_Killjoy
2018-04-19, 02:38 PM
And for Earth deities they could bury the sacrifice alive. (And the sacrifices for love deities are of course killed softly. With love.).


Kill them softly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ppz-cwLeqo)?

:wink:

parryhotter
2018-05-31, 05:38 PM
Any diety even food would accept a blood sacrifice as long as it was an animal not a person and it didn't suffer in the process. Just look at the ancient Jewish practice of sacrifice in the Old Testiment.

DustyHalo
2018-05-31, 09:24 PM
Neutral good, or even just good gods in general, might accept people burning/ offering food or crops.

GreatWyrmGold
2018-05-31, 10:27 PM
I personally feel that discussion of fictional religions (or fictional anything) is almost entirely crippled by an inability to even reference real-world religious beliefs (regardless of if specific beliefs are named). I realize my opinion has no weight, but I still want to express it.
And with this context, I'd like to note that while I have removed references to real religion from this post, I've left in references to real culture. Because the line between the two is basically nonexistent, it's with trepidation that I do this, but I think I'm sticking to the right side of this rule. I hope you'll all forgive me if I go out of my way to point out how I'm following the rules, and that this doesn't get misinterpreted as trying to exploit loopholes. (Though I'll freely admit to toeing the line as hard as I can.)


It's not a sacrifice if it's something you want to get rid of. If the temple has a holy fire for burning sacrifices, the gods don't want you to use it as a trash barrel to get rid of your garbage.
Exactly.
Though if we're talking about a sacrifice to get rid of something the sacrificer has...well, it's hardly unreasonable for deities to ask for people to make personal sacrifices. Examples of everything from ritual scarification to martyrdom are common (and not consistently demonized) in fantasy literature, as well as other things which I am not discussing.



I belive you're thinking about it in the wrong way. Sacrifice is simply a tax you pay to keep the god in question on your side.
In fact, that's more or less how many ancient cultures viewed sacrifice. (Though the details varied at least as much as they do for cultural views on taxation.) Many ancient societies, even ones we couldn't plausibly classify as theocracies, had what were effectively government agencies dedicated to making sure the gods stayed happy.



The real question is: what is the sacrifice for? It can be a tax to demonstrate fealty, or it can be a symbol of a spiritual act. Burning a moldy bedsheet can be symbolic of driving the influence of evil (possibly spirits) out of your home and property. It doesn't have to be an actual demon being immolated, just something that could represent the demons in our lives could be enough.
This sort of symbolic stuff is also pretty common in fantasy cultures, though it's usually not treated as a ritual of sacrifice so much as spiritual warding or ritual cleansing.



In many cases, it's the priests that do most of the actual sacrificing. If it's a cow, it could be from temple lands, or from the wealthier farmers of the county. Gold tithes are given based on what can be given.
It's not unheard of for leaders of a nation and other prominent people in more thoroughly-constructed worlds to provide sacrificial material and/or tithes in exchange for some divine service. Some draw on historical precedent, e.g. Spartan duocracy. (Which is a fascinating system of government that is worth researching.)



Doing "good works" is something you do in addition to sacrifice, not as a substitute. You can't get out of paying taxes just because you're filling in potholes and shoveling sidewalks by yourself.
Depends on local law. There are historical examples of societies where you could be exempt from taxation or the local equivalent if you performed certain services, which sometimes did include infrastructure maintenance.



You are entirely correct, but I still can't get the image of some animals coming by to share in the festivities. Some poor priest is fighting off a bear in a smaller town, another has to tell a dude to get his dog to go away, while another is trying to shoo off a vulture without getting vomitted on.
History is full of (non-religious) ceremonies which could be disrupted by local wildlife, and plenty more which could and were disrupted by people who disagreed with some facet of them. It's a fact of life that things won't always go as intended, and there are plenty of solutions that real-world cultures have found.




Should deities even be good or evil, or should they operate along entire different lines?
That depends heavily on what kind of tone you're going for. Classic high-fantasy with good elves and evil orcs and so on pretty much requires a clean delineation between good and evil, by definition. If you blur the line between good and evil gods, you need to blur the line between good and evil churches, which you can't really do without blurring the line between good and evil cultures, which in basically any setting means blurring the line between good and evil everything.
There's nothing inherently wrong with either approach, as long as you commit to it. But gods are fundamental to religion, which are fundamental to culture, which is fundamental to basically everything. Which is true in both real life and in fiction, because fiction is supposed to reflect reality. Which is part of why it's often hard to discuss fiction without discussing reality.
...Sorry for the rant.



The group just raided the Lich's old tower and got all the books and data they could to investigate the Lich's new epic spell and how to counter it.
The city's priest stole all the books and scrolls in the middle of the night and burned it all in the name of his good god. His intention was good, grab these cursed books of forbidden lore before it corrupts the mind of some innocent person, but in the end he did more harm than good.
The highlighted part is important. For various reasons too complicated to summarize easily (at least for me), ideas expressed in fiction can affect how people think and act IRL. As authors (and everyone involved in any kind of game is, to some extent, an author), we need to be aware of the ideas we express and the messages we send, and make sure they're the ones we want to spread.




That's something different to run with -- things that are hard for people to give up, that they'd never let go -- like a drowning man sometimes grabs into the leg of another, dragging them both down, according to the god's priests.
I can't put this in my first folder, but that's a brilliant idea. It's creative and makes room for some interesting character drama.



Or it could be something with some more positive connotations.
I dunno, "keep the universe running right" sounds like a pretty dang good reason for sacrifice. Arguably, there's no better possible reason for sacrifice, at least when the consequences for not doing so are apocalyptic (e.g, the Sun gets eaten). Which is not a reference to any similar real-world beliefs.



That, and I really don't trust my players if burning items sends them to the gods. Someone will find a way to break this.
Lolth: "That's weird, a bunch of elven adventurers just sent me a nice bag of holding. I wonder what's inside...sh*t, it's a bag of devouring!"



All these replies saying things like "good gods would want you to 'sacrifice' time to help others" and so on just make me think of a priest rolling his eyes and saying "Oh how convenient! A definition of 'sacrifice' that doesn't involve livestock and getting your hands dirty!"
"Back in my day, when you wanted to make a sacrifice, you had to make a sacrifice! These days, it's all charity and soup-kitchens and cleanin' the river. Priests these days just don't know how to respect a god."

Manga Shoggoth
2018-06-01, 10:27 AM
I remember one fantasy story where the the cities deity (the Sun) would not accept blood sacrifice, so the only appropriate offering for a particular festival was a single scale of a particular breed of fish (the festival was something to do with the breeding of the fish).

Of course, getting the scale off the fish was rather difficult - the narrator describes the priestess going towards the bowl containing the fish wearing heavy gauntlets.

DrewID
2018-06-01, 01:49 PM
"Back in my day, when you wanted to make a sacrifice, you had to make a sacrifice! These days, it's all charity and soup-kitchens and cleanin' the river. Priests these days just don't know how to respect a god."


Reknub Eichra, Cleric, 6th level, Alignment: Lawful Grumpy-old-man

DrewID