Does anyone else feel humans/elves are too strong?

[Odessa333]

Topic. Everytime I go to make a new character in 5E, I am always torn between playing a dwarf/halfling/gnome/etc or playing the more optimal elf, half elf, human trio. No matter what class I'm building, these three always seem the superior option. I mean really, the min/max part of my brain struggles to find a single build the other races can do better than these three. Is it just me?

Maybe I'm just ranting, yet I went to go make a halfling bard and I'm just in awe how much better the golden trio is. I could have a feat, dark vision, more skills, or.... smaller movement and hide behind people. I'm not feeling the love.

[Unoriginal]

Elves, humans and half-elves really aren't that strong.

What do you like so much about them?

[Belier]

You don't like it you don't play it. All races are perfectly fine it comes up to personnal preferences

Just to give you an idea I saw lucky from halfling so many times it is a life saver.

Also, humans can be severely hindered in darkness, supposing you play it.

Gnomes offer interesting role-playing opportunities.

[Lance Tankmen]

humans only get +1 strength, thats hardly strong

[Odessa333]

Oh don't get me wrong. I love playing dwarves, gnomes, and tieflings and have played them and others may a time in older editions. Yet I don't think a halfling's Lucky makes up all the bonuses an elf can get, or a human's feat. I feel like I have to sell myself 'short' to play a small race, if you will. Maybe it IS just me though.

[kardar233]

Lucky is handy. I don’t find Elves to be constantly tempting, it’s Half-Elf, Dwarf and Variant Human that I’m mechanically drawn to. Half-Elves get great stat boosts, darkvision, and two skills which I love because skills are so sparse in this edition. All dwarves get poison resistance (a lifesaver), a Con bonus, and Darkvision; Hill Dwarves get to be absurdly tough, while Mountain Dwarves are the best race for basically any Strength class. Variant Human lets you establish mechanical uniqueness from Level 1, and makes builds happen so much earlier (I would’ve had to wait till 9th to get my Polearm Master/Sentinel build going).

[Rusvul]

IMO, Variant human is always the strongest race for any class (except arguably spellcasters) outside of niche builds, like Tiefling warlocks who fireball themselves and use Darkness/Devil's Sight. It's not so strong that there's no reason to play anything else, though, and for me that's ideal--I like it when my PCs play humans (I think it makes more sense, since my game world is largely human-dominated), but I don't want to be heavy-handed about it. The fact that variant human is strong is IMO the perfect gentle encouragement.

If you wanted to do the opposite, you could disallow variant human, give every race a feat at first level, or slightly nerf elves, half-elves, and humans. They are very good, if you remove or reduce a minor feature from each of them you should still have three perfectly playable races.

On a similar note, a houserule I use in my games is that all players start with an additional ASI, regardless of race. It can't be traded in for a feat, and when combined with racial bonuses you can't have more than a +2 to any one stat. The idea is to encourage unorthodox race/class combos. It's not huge, but it does make your halfling bard slightly better--all the useful ASIs of a half-elf, but instead of skills, immunity to sleep, and darkvision, you have Lucky, Brave, Halfling Nimbleness, and your choice of naturally stealthy or poison immunity. A pretty good trade, I think, especially as a bard, who might have some use for both naturally stealthy and halfling nimbleness.

[kardar233]

I’ve been discussing with my DM about removing Variant Human and giving a first level feat to all races, disallowing GWM, SS and PAM. I’ve been thinking about how to boost Human a little so our parties aren’t totally nonhuman; I was thinking maybe a save proficiency?

[JellyPooga]

Topic. Everytime I go to make a new character in 5E, I am always torn between playing a dwarf/halfling/gnome/etc or playing the more optimal elf, half elf, human trio. No matter what class I'm building, these three always seem the superior option. I mean really, the min/max part of my brain struggles to find a single build the other races can do better than these three. Is it just me?

Maybe I'm just ranting, yet I went to go make a halfling bard and I'm just in awe how much better the golden trio is. I could have a feat, dark vision, more skills, or.... smaller movement and hide behind people. I'm not feeling the love.

Are...are you kidding? It sounds like a joke, but on the assumption you're serious;

- Yes, V.Human (note; only V.Human) is very strong for a specialised build that really really wants a Feat ASAP. No-one else gives a damn. For Classes/builds that don't care so much about Feats, V.Human is pretty weak. These include (but aren't limited to); Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue, Warlock and Wizard. Basically all of them. Sure, some of these characters might enjoy having a Feat at 1st, but hardly require it or are even all that much better for it than waiting until 4th (especially if the game starts after 4th level). Standard Human is not a strong choice from a pure optimisation perspective.

- Half Elf is good for generalists and Charisma casters/characters. They make high-average Barbarians, Clerics, Fighters and Rogues, all of whom can enjoy the Charisma bump with the right choices, but with other choices, don't really care for any feature Half-Elf offers. Half-Elves make bad Rangers and worse Monks. Wizards want nothing the Half-Elf offers, except maybe the couple of extra skills. At least half the Classes in the PHB simply don't care enough for the Half-Elf package to be optimal. Half-Elf is strong for a few characters, but not all.

- Elf...well Elves make good Wizards (High Elf), Monks and Rangers (Wood Elf), Paladins (Drow) and Rogues (any sub-race). That is all. Do they make the best of any of these? Not really.

- Dwarf is insanely strong for any character except maybe Bard, Warlock and Wizard (and even then they're still very good). The Con bonus alone is enough to shout about, but add a laundry list of extras and Dwarf is probably the single strongest candidate across the board, with the sole downside of being slightly slower; a feature that no-one actually cares about.

- Gnomes have the ludicrous luxury of Gnome Cunning; a feature that will stand in good stead from 1st to 20th level, a feature that any character will enjoy, that stacks with pretty much every other bonus to mental saves you might want. Gnome Cunning is an insanely good racial feature. 'Nuff said. If in doubt, I gravitate towards Gnome for that reason alone; that kind of defence is worth far more than any Feat. The "drawback" of their primary Ability Score bonus being in Int is regrettable, but hardly a deal breaker; many characters will want a high Int and more players (myself included) prefer not to play a dullard; Gnome lets you do this without investment. I'll let someone else expound upon the insanity that is the Minor Illusion cantrip.

- Halfling...ah, Halflings. My second and most enduring love (Dwarf was my first). Aside from the notion that playing a Halfling is almost a literal expression of playing an underdog, they also enjoy some very unique features. Namely, Lucky. Re-rolling an auto-fail cannot be understated. Sure it might not come up too often, but like Gnome Cunning, it's a fail-safe ability that can't be bought any other way. Stout Halflings are remarkably resilient; bonus Dex and bonus Con? Yes please; I'll take that with a side order of Wis Save proficiency and round out the trifecta of Power-Saves. Oh, I get advantage on saves vs. fear as well? Why thank you very much. Now now, Mr.Nogard, you can flap your wings all you like, but I won't be phased by your Presence, even if my burly Half-Orc friend is running for the hills. Can't we all just calm down and talk about it like nice, sensible sentient beings, hmmm?:smallconfused:

Darkvision is nice, but waaay overrated. You don't even need a Cantrip to solve almost every problem Darkvision does; a lantern does the trick quite nicely. If you want Skill proficiencies, there are classes (e.g. Bard) and/or subclasses (e.g. College of Lore) for that; most other characters just don't care enough because it's a party game and someone will have the skill for the job; you don't need them all. From a min/max point of view, you don't take an option that can be replicated elsewhere unless you have to; getting advantage or immunity vs. Fear effects, for example, requires the use of a level 1 or higher spell; sure, that's available, but it's a pretty niche spell that you probably won't know or have prepared every time fear effects are an issue. Halflings having blanket, permanent advantage is a boon you're not getting elsewhere. Similar for Gnome Cunning or Resistance to Poison damage. These are features that aren't replicated easily. By comparison, Elves offer us...a cantrip? Even Rogues can get Cantrips. Or being able to hide in natural terrain...which you, er, can do anyway...? What about that extra 5ft movement, huh? Is that really worth shouting about when every Rogue or Monk you've ever met is boasting better? The only "optimal" one out of all of your "golden three" is V.Human and even that is for a select few highly specialised and mostly melee oriented characters that will spend most of their first 4 levels missing all their attacks because, in theory, -5/+10 is a good idea.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I honestly think that with a DM who is fairly lenient on Stealth, Lightfoot Halfling is the strongest PHB race.

[kardar233]

The only "optimal" one out of all of your "golden three" is V.Human and even that is for a select few highly specialised and mostly melee oriented characters that will spend most of their first 4 levels missing all their attacks because, in theory, -5/+10 is a good idea.

I think you really underestimate the range of good feat choices apart from GWM/SS, as well as the number of classes who love having a feat early.

Druid and Cleric are going to be Concentrating from Day 1, whether on Entangle or Bless. One bad arrow can waste that spell slot, and those are precious at early levels. War Caster or Resilient: Con are vital. Warlock and Ranger are in a similar boat with Hex and Hunter’s Mark, the things that elevate their damage above the competition.

Barbarian can nearly double their damage output in the early levels with Polearm Master. Fighter loves it too.

[Chugger]

Va Human is crazy good, but other races "catch up" in the mid levels. But who plays over level 10? Well, some do.

GWM/SS plus 2 ASIs by lvl 8 (lvl 6 if fighter) is crazy sauce. Add to that BM's Precision recharges on a short rest. And...fireball does 8d6 3 x per long rest at lvl 6. Possibly to many things. But yes there are players at lvl 6 taking their 1d8 +4 main weap attacks and then maybe a short sword off hand attack - and barely doing double-digit damage a round.

Not everyone optimizes - DMs are supposed to adjust encounters (to the party) to make them challenging. I'm not sure why I ever go with something optimized because at least in theory nothing about the fight will be different. But is that real?

[Asmotherion]

The only reason you probably think that way is because you limit yourself to a specific concept/class/playstyle.

All races are Optimal when combined with the right class, and Sub-Optimal when not. If you're aiming for a Dwarf Bard, you're going to be disapointed in some of the aspects it provides compared to a Half Elf Bard for example (but it balances out pretty well with the other things it provides).

Someone whose "Default Class" is Barbarian on the other hand will probably think that Dwarves are the Best Race out there, and why would anyone roll any other race than that.

It's all a matter of perspective really.

Humans are made to be the Average+ solution to everything (especially true in the Variant Human), mostly because of our vanity as humans ourselves, and the undertanding that, if they were not representing an interesting choice as a Race, nobody would choose Humans at all.

The balance comes in the form of Generic over Specific (When looking at 5e in an optimiser's perspective). On one hand you have the Humans (especially Variant), who are the above average Race that can be good at just about anything. On the other hand you have Specific Races that are Amazing at Specific Roles, and can Moonlight at other Roles, but generally would suck if you don't follow some basic guidlines (or just roll really high). And really, in most Fantasy games, it's overall more fun to play as something more exotic than just an average boring Human, unless you can turn it into something more interesting through backrounds (the last sentence reflecting only my personal opinion; nothing more and nothing less).

On a non optimiser's perspective, you just don't care. Play your character, and you're done whith overthinking.

[Angelalex242]

The only reason you probably think that way is because you limit yourself to a specific concept/class/playstyle.

All races are Optimal when combined with the right class, and Sub-Optimal when not. If you're aiming for a Dwarf Bard, you're going to be disapointed in some of the aspects it provides compared to a Half Elf Bard for example (but it balances out pretty well with the other things it provides).

Someone whose "Default Class" is Barbarian on the other hand will probably think that Dwarves are the Best Race out there, and why would anyone roll any other race than that.

It's all a matter of perspective really.

Humans are made to be the Average+ solution to everything (especially true in the Variant Human), mostly because of our vanity as humans ourselves, and the undertanding that, if they were not representing an interesting choice as a Race, nobody would choose Humans at all.

The balance comes in the form of Generic over Specific (When looking at 5e in an optimiser's perspective). On one hand you have the Humans (especially Variant), who are the above average Race that can be good at just about anything. On the other hand you have Specific Races that are Amazing at Specific Roles, and can Moonlight at other Roles, but generally would suck if you don't follow some basic guidlines (or just roll really high). And really, in most Fantasy games, it's overall more fun to play as something more exotic than just an average boring Human, unless you can turn it into something more interesting through backrounds (the last sentence reflecting only my personal opinion; nothing more and nothing less).

On a non optimiser's perspective, you just don't care. Play your character, and you're done whith overthinking.

More to the point, ever notice how humans are the most dominant race in any campaign world? That's because all those ruling the world humans are vumans and abusing the hell out of their feats.

[Asmotherion]

More to the point, ever notice how humans are the most dominant race in any campaign world? That's because all those ruling the world humans are vumans and abusing the hell out of their feats.

It's a matter of perspective really. In my personal setting, every race has it's society, so, wile the Common World (Citties etc) is mostly Dominated by Humans, Dwarves own Mountains from the inside out, Forests are owned by the Elves, wile other races are subject to one of the 3 "kingdoms" (Halfings are part of the Human Kingdom wile Gnomes part of the Elven Kingdom, as, in my world, they are part fey themselves. Half Elves are all around really. Aasimar and Tieflings are a Rarity, mostly found in Human society, but exceptions happen. Dragonborn, I have to explain the whole world concept to explain how they fit in, but they exist). Also, all Kings, Queens and the Royal Bloodlines of all Races except Dwarves are secretly Metalic Dragons (There is a reason behind it, also leading to complicated explainations.).

[Citan]

Are...are you kidding? It sounds like a joke, but on the assumption you're serious;

- Yes, V.Human (note; only V.Human) is very strong for a specialised build that really really wants a Feat ASAP. No-one else gives a damn. For Classes/builds that don't care so much about Feats, V.Human is pretty weak. These include (but aren't limited to); Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Rogue, Warlock and Wizard. Basically all of them. Sure, some of these characters might enjoy having a Feat at 1st, but hardly require it or are even all that much better for it than waiting until 4th (especially if the game starts after 4th level). Standard Human is not a strong choice from a pure optimisation perspective.

- Half Elf is good for generalists and Charisma casters/characters. They make high-average Barbarians, Clerics, Fighters and Rogues, all of whom can enjoy the Charisma bump with the right choices, but with other choices, don't really care for any feature Half-Elf offers. Half-Elves make bad Rangers and worse Monks. Wizards want nothing the Half-Elf offers, except maybe the couple of extra skills. At least half the Classes in the PHB simply don't care enough for the Half-Elf package to be optimal. Half-Elf is strong for a few characters, but not all.

- Elf...well Elves make good Wizards (High Elf), Monks and Rangers (Wood Elf), Paladins (Drow) and Rogues (any sub-race). That is all. Do they make the best of any of these? Not really.

- Dwarf is insanely strong for any character except maybe Bard, Warlock and Wizard (and even then they're still very good). The Con bonus alone is enough to shout about, but add a laundry list of extras and Dwarf is probably the single strongest candidate across the board, with the sole downside of being slightly slower; a feature that no-one actually cares about.

- Gnomes have the ludicrous luxury of Gnome Cunning; a feature that will stand in good stead from 1st to 20th level, a feature that any character will enjoy, that stacks with pretty much every other bonus to mental saves you might want. Gnome Cunning is an insanely good racial feature. 'Nuff said. If in doubt, I gravitate towards Gnome for that reason alone; that kind of defence is worth far more than any Feat. The "drawback" of their primary Ability Score bonus being in Int is regrettable, but hardly a deal breaker; many characters will want a high Int and more players (myself included) prefer not to play a dullard; Gnome lets you do this without investment. I'll let someone else expound upon the insanity that is the Minor Illusion cantrip.

- Halfling...ah, Halflings. My second and most enduring love (Dwarf was my first). Aside from the notion that playing a Halfling is almost a literal expression of playing an underdog, they also enjoy some very unique features. Namely, Lucky. Re-rolling an auto-fail cannot be understated. Sure it might not come up too often, but like Gnome Cunning, it's a fail-safe ability that can't be bought any other way. Stout Halflings are remarkably resilient; bonus Dex and bonus Con? Yes please; I'll take that with a side order of Wis Save proficiency and round out the trifecta of Power-Saves. Oh, I get advantage on saves vs. fear as well? Why thank you very much. Now now, Mr.Nogard, you can flap your wings all you like, but I won't be phased by your Presence, even if my burly Half-Orc friend is running for the hills. Can't we all just calm down and talk about it like nice, sensible sentient beings, hmmm?:smallconfused:

Darkvision is nice, but waaay overrated. You don't even need a Cantrip to solve almost every problem Darkvision does; a lantern does the trick quite nicely. If you want Skill proficiencies, there are classes (e.g. Bard) and/or subclasses (e.g. College of Lore) for that; most other characters just don't care enough because it's a party game and someone will have the skill for the job; you don't need them all. From a min/max point of view, you don't take an option that can be replicated elsewhere unless you have to; getting advantage or immunity vs. Fear effects, for example, requires the use of a level 1 or higher spell; sure, that's available, but it's a pretty niche spell that you probably won't know or have prepared every time fear effects are an issue. Halflings having blanket, permanent advantage is a boon you're not getting elsewhere. Similar for Gnome Cunning or Resistance to Poison damage. These are features that aren't replicated easily. By comparison, Elves offer us...a cantrip? Even Rogues can get Cantrips. Or being able to hide in natural terrain...which you, er, can do anyway...? What about that extra 5ft movement, huh? Is that really worth shouting about when every Rogue or Monk you've ever met is boasting better? The only "optimal" one out of all of your "golden three" is V.Human and even that is for a select few highly specialised and mostly melee oriented characters that will spend most of their first 4 levels missing all their attacks because, in theory, -5/+10 is a good idea.
You know, you argue that OP says ludicrous things, but you're not half-bad at that yourself... XD

While I agree on most points (although you oversells its a bit) there are two things in which your opinion faces a hard reality check.

1. Speed (dwarf): "no one cares about"? Wrong, extremely wrong. For all characters, speed is part of the power. Especially true for melee-oriented characters apart from Monk who have built-in flat bonus and possibly Rogues that are confident enough in their Attack to use Cunning Action regularly.
But a 25 feet only? Get prone, use half speed to stand up, now you have only 12,5, on grid most DM will round that down to 2 squares. Get hit by a Ray of Frost? You just lost more than 1/3 of your speed. That difference of just 5 feet compared to other races may seem small, but it may end as not being to reach the enemy you wanted to strike, or not having the speed to put yourself behind a cover between rounds, or not being to escape from a dangerous enemy that chases you...

I don't know the kind of games you play, but in my games (either as a player or as a DM), reach and positioning are often keys to victory or defeat.

And saying "it's worthless because Rogue and Monk get better already" is, well, I don't even know how to qualify that ""argument"".

2. Darkvision: congrats on blowing all party's stealth long before what you could normally expect because "hey guys no worries about me I have a lantern". Thats one of the stupidest things I regularly see here whenever a discussion about darkvision rises...

Of course, both points are not *that big* of a problem. If you happen to have a caster in a party (which is highly probable), half of them have Darkvision, and another half has Longstrider, with some having both.

So in that case, you're a bit of a weight for them, but since those are low-level spells unless you engage in long-exploration or get surprised this shouldn't end as a big consumption of resources in the long run (with casters getting more slots too).

If nobody can help you cover these flaws, it's not the end of the world either: you'll "just" have to rely on others to draw enemies to you (speed) or alert you through other senses (darkvision).
This can actually make for a bit of interesting teamplay.
But that is still the mark of a flaw.

[Arkhios]

To me, it seems that humans, elves, and consequently half-elves are just the easy go-to option because the other races (except maybe dwarves) lack as much pop-culture references and characterizations. Even though someone might object to this by "but Hobbits!?!" how many other fictional halfling protagonists do you really know compared to humans, elves, half-elves, and dwarves? I came up with only one: Regis "Rumblebelly". That's just 6 famous halflings including Frodo, Bilbo, Merry, Pippin, and Sam. 7, if you count Willow as a halfling (I'm not sure if I do). Elves and Humans number by dozens.
Edit: Ok, Tasslehoff Burrfoot is one more "halfling", so right now I'm looking at 7 or 8 popular fiction halflings, but that's still only a surface scrape compared to how many human, elf, half-elf, or even dwarf protagonists are out there.

Tolkien wrote a lot of stories (LotR and Hobbit, while the most popular ones, are only a small part of the whole) that circulate around the elves and humans of the Tolkien's world. Likewise, even the germanic and scandinavian folklore (or at least those that I know of) are mostly about humans and elves.

Those races are the easiest to immerse ourselves with because they are similar enough to each other and us.

They are not strong, in my opinion, just because they are more appealing than others. That said, half-elfs are quite strong compared to the rest of those of "common fantasy races".

Just my two copper pieces. YMMV, of course.

[Angelalex242]

It's a matter of perspective really. In my personal setting, every race has it's society, so, wile the Common World (Citties etc) is mostly Dominated by Humans, Dwarves own Mountains from the inside out, Forests are owned by the Elves, wile other races are subject to one of the 3 "kingdoms" (Halfings are part of the Human Kingdom wile Gnomes part of the Elven Kingdom, as, in my world, they are part fey themselves. Half Elves are all around really. Aasimar and Tieflings are a Rarity, mostly found in Human society, but exceptions happen. Dragonborn, I have to explain the whole world concept to explain how they fit in, but they exist). Also, all Kings, Queens and the Royal Bloodlines of all Races except Dwarves are secretly Metalic Dragons (There is a reason behind it, also leading to complicated explainations.).

That's your world. Faerun, Greyhawk, etc. tends to have humans running the place.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Halflings might be hurt in the pop culture department because they don't exist in Dragonlance, and the Dragonlance novels are essentially the pinnacle of fantasy D&D pop culture, even more than Lord of the Rings. Nearly every wizard I've ever seen is more Raistlin than Gandalf, and half-elves owe far more to Tanis than to Elrond or Elros. And in Dragonlance, halflings don't exist and gnomes and kender are so difficult to play as PCs that new subraces were introduced to strip away annoying RP requirements and fluff. So there's some diffusion there.

Plus, if you're short and fat you're going to be comic relief. I'd wager at any given table of nerds there are more than a few who aren't comfortable being comic relief all the time.

[Arkhios]

Halflings might be hurt in the pop culture department because they don't exist in Dragonlance, and the Dragonlance novels are essentially the pinnacle of fantasy D&D pop culture, even more than Lord of the Rings. Nearly every wizard I've ever seen is more Raistlin than Gandalf, and half-elves owe far more to Tanis than to Elrond or Elros. And in Dragonlance, halflings don't exist and gnomes and kender are so difficult to play as PCs that new subraces were introduced to strip away annoying RP requirements and fluff. So there's some diffusion there.

Plus, if you're short and fat you're going to be comic relief. I'd wager at any given table of nerds there are more than a few who aren't comfortable being comic relief all the time.

That's not entirely true.

Kender are based on halflings. While maybe not entirely halflings, they share much between each other.

[Unoriginal]

and the Dragonlance novels are essentially the pinnacle of fantasy D&D pop culture, even more than Lord of the Rings.

I think you're overestimating Dragonlance's weight, here.

Sure, it had a big influence, but while some of its ideas went into the pop culture, I think most D&D players, especially 5e's, aren't really aware of the setting much.

[Angelalex242]

I think you're overestimating Dragonlance's weight, here.

Sure, it had a big influence, but while some of its ideas went into the pop culture, I think most D&D players, especially 5e's, aren't really aware of the setting much.

Also, on my point, Dragonlance is still human dominated...as two legged races go.

[Knaight]

Halflings might be hurt in the pop culture department because they don't exist in Dragonlance, and the Dragonlance novels are essentially the pinnacle of fantasy D&D pop culture, even more than Lord of the Rings. Nearly every wizard I've ever seen is more Raistlin than Gandalf, and half-elves owe far more to Tanis than to Elrond or Elros. And in Dragonlance, halflings don't exist and gnomes and kender are so difficult to play as PCs that new subraces were introduced to strip away annoying RP requirements and fluff. So there's some diffusion there.

The FR novels have significantly more weight than Dragonlance, and even among D&D players I wouldn't expect crappy D&D fantasy novels to have that much clout.

[Jerrykhor]

I don't think they are too strong, only some other races are too weak, like Dragonborn and Tiefling. Half-Elf is a little stronger than the rest, that's about it. I started playing Tiefling a lot, but nowadays I tend to prefer v.human, the feat just provides a lot of customisation power for the character. But then my group love feats a lot, whoever DMs always give everyone a free feat at level 1 (Yes, our v.humans start with 2 feats lol).

[Vorok]

For basically anyone that presumes to be hit in combat, half-orcs are great for their relentless endurance (great for the front line fighter as well as the "squishy" wizard). If you're a str build, their ability score bonuses and bonus die on crits are right up your valley too.

[white lancer]

I think the scarcity of feats (and the strength of some of those feats) makes V.Human a little too strong, yeah. It's probably a top 3 racial option for every single class, and I often find myself reluctantly going Human just because the feat is too big of a draw. That's more a knock on how hard it is to get feats IMO--even just giving every character a free feat at first level regardless of race would probably solve that issue.

Half-Elf is fantastic for any Cha-based class and cleanly outclasses most of the other +2 Cha races (with the possible exception of Yuan-Ti, just because of their magical resistance). However, it's fine but not amazing at any non-Cha class, which means I don't think it's overpowered.

I've never seen full Elves as being especially overpowered at all. Sure, Wood Elves make great Monks/Rangers, but they're no better at those classes than Mountain Dwarf is at Fighter/Barbarian or Gnomes are at Wizard, etc. Just a really good race for certain classes and nothing special for others, like most races are. And High Elves aren't really the best at any specific class at all (aside from perhaps Dex Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters) due to how unnecessary Int is for most characters.

[MaxWilson]

Topic. Everytime I go to make a new character in 5E, I am always torn between playing a dwarf/halfling/gnome/etc or playing the more optimal elf, half elf, human trio. No matter what class I'm building, these three always seem the superior option. I mean really, the min/max part of my brain struggles to find a single build the other races can do better than these three. Is it just me?

That's because dwarves, halflings, and gnomes are weak and, more importantly, boring.

I'm drawn to humans, half-elves, lizardmen, goblins, half-orcs, and occasionally savage halflings in the Darksun mold, because they're not as boring as regular halflings.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

That's not entirely true.

Kender are based on halflings. While maybe not entirely halflings, they share much between each other.

Inasmuch as they're both small and rogue-y, maybe. But default Halfling fluff is communitarian/agrarian and lawful good, while Kender are generally good-hearted but chaotic and individualist.

[Arkhios]

Inasmuch as they're both small and rogue-y, maybe. But default Halfling fluff is communitarian/agrarian and lawful good, while Kender are generally good-hearted but chaotic and individualist.

Not just that, though. The race Kender is literally developed from a Halfling character played by Harold Johnson in Dungeons & Dragons adventures run by Margaret Weis, when it was decided by Weis and the rest that halfling race was unsuitable for Dragonlance setting.
Harold Johnson was responsible of having "developed both the initial concept of the kender and the first representative of the fantasy race, Tasslehoff Burrfoot. To solidify the distinction, they were originally described as "thinner, more wiry, and more cunning and streetwise" than halflings." Regardless, they are based on halflings.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Not just that, though. The race Kender is literally developed from a Halfling character played by Harold Johnson in Dungeons & Dragons adventures run by Margaret Weis, when it was decided by Weis and the rest that halfling race was unsuitable for Dragonlance setting.
Harold Johnson was responsible of having "developed both the initial concept of the kender and the first representative of the fantasy race, Tasslehoff Burrfoot. To solidify the distinction, they were originally described as "thinner, more wiry, and more cunning and streetwise" than halflings." Regardless, they are based on halflings.

Not disputing that they're based on halflings, or that they're mechanically similar. What they do in a game world is not transferable. You can take Dragonlance qualinosti elves and basically stick them in the place of Forgotten Realms gray elves and nothing much changes. You cannot plop Kenderhome into the place of The Shire and expect the LotR setting to work the same way.

[Knaight]

Not disputing that they're based on halflings, or that they're mechanically similar. What they do in a game world is not transferable. You can take Dragonlance qualinosti elves and basically stick them in the place of Forgotten Realms gray elves and nothing much changes. You cannot plop Kenderhome into the place of The Shire and expect the LotR setting to work the same way.

You also can't stick gray elves or qualisnoti elves in LotR and expect it to work the same way. It's almost like it's a carefully crafted and thoroughly thought through setting used to deliver an excellent story with actual thematic content, and Dragonlance and FR are mindless fluff extruded fantasy product*.

*Credit to Warty Goblin for the term.

[2D8HP]

For characters that do what I want then to do Elves and half-elves get the goodies I want mechanically.

Role-playing wise, I'd like to play humans and half-orcs, but I know I weaken the abilities of my PC's when I choose that (as for the "but Feats" argument for V. Humans, nope I don't see it, as it would take multiple Feats to equal the goodies Elves and half-elves get, so one extra Feat at first level isn't enough).

If V. Humans are so good then why aren't more PC's human?

I've seen a party with 5 PC's, all Elves or half-elves, but I've never seen an all human party.

Ever.

[JellyPooga]

You know, you argue that OP says ludicrous things, but you're not half-bad at that yourself... XD

Thanks! Er...I think :smalltongue:


1. Speed (dwarf): "no one cares about"? Wrong, extremely wrong. For all characters, speed is part of the power. Especially true for melee-oriented characters apart from Monk who have built-in flat bonus and possibly Rogues that are confident enough in their Attack to use Cunning Action regularly.
But a 25 feet only? Get prone, use half speed to stand up, now you have only 12,5, on grid most DM will round that down to 2 squares. Get hit by a Ray of Frost? You just lost more than 1/3 of your speed. That difference of just 5 feet compared to other races may seem small, but it may end as not being to reach the enemy you wanted to strike, or not having the speed to put yourself behind a cover between rounds, or not being to escape from a dangerous enemy that chases you...

I don't know the kind of games you play, but in my games (either as a player or as a DM), reach and positioning are often keys to victory or defeat.

And saying "it's worthless because Rogue and Monk get better already" is, well, I don't even know how to qualify that ""argument"".

I won't dispute that speed is an important factor for many characters; if nothing else, the ability to flee effectively can be a life-saver! However, under most circumstances, unless you're playing a skirmisher style character, the difference between 25 (Dwarf) and 35 (Wood Elf) is largely insignificant. Most "dungeon" combats will occur in small-ish spaces, no larger than 50-60ft square. The same can be said for pretty much any indoor melee. That (up to) 10ft difference in speed isn't going to have that much impact once the melee is joined, because barring a few unusual situations, you'll be able to catch your foe regardless. Outdoor combats and larger scale building/caverns are another matter, but in those circumstances, yes, that extra 5ft might make all the difference, but then again, it probably won't. If you are playing a skirmisher style character, then you likely have a Class feature or the Mobile Feat to mitigate the penalty the Dwarf suffers and improve upon the "standard" 30ft speed. A Dwarf Rogue, for example, need only use his bonus action to have an effective speed of 50ft/round; better than a Wood Elf of any other Class barring Monk (after 6th level), some Barbarians (Elk/Eagle Totem) or someone suped-up on a magical buff of one description or another (NB - I'm aware that I've probably overlooked some other speedy options, but can we at least agree that they are relatively few?).


2. Darkvision: congrats on blowing all party's stealth long before what you could normally expect because "hey guys no worries about me I have a lantern". Thats one of the stupidest things I regularly see here whenever a discussion about darkvision rises...

I loathe the assumption that a lantern will automatically "blow stealth". Let's take a look at the real world where "darkvision" doesn't exist and only recently (i.e. in the last century) has a technological facsimile of it been invented. How on earth do you think anyone got any sneaking, burglarising, smuggling and other nefarious (or not) deeds in the dark done without using a light source of one description or another? They certainly didn't limit them all to daylight hours. Tools exist to limit light sources to the minimum required and have done for hundreds of years; easily falling into the psuedo-historical era of your average D&D campaign. Just because a light-source is obvious when you know or realise it's there doesn't mean you'll automatically notice it when you don't. Do you notice every plane that flies overhead at night? Every car that drives by your window with the headlamps on? How about the guy on his bicycle coming up behind you? Or even from other angles. He's got a hi-vis jacket and a dynamo lamp and isn't trying to be stealthy, but you might not notice him until he's passing right by you. Now let's consider that even with Darkvision, most sentient creatures aren't going to be hanging around in the dark themselves; Darkvision is rubbish for, well, pretty much anything except having a scrap in the dark. Can't get any reading done, probably not a lot of fine-detail work at all, no art appreciation or any of the finer things. Hell, can't even do any cooking, 'cos that fire gives off light too (and before you start in on the "a cooking fire doesn't give off a lot of light", I'll remind you to think of the last time you were cooking over an open fire in the dark and how little you were paying attention to anything but that fire and the people immediately around it; people are simple and predictable things when it comes to stuff like that and I doubt any Orc or Gnoll is much different).

Sure, a top-notch sentry or guard that's alert to intruders will probably notice an approaching light-source. A tired and bored one, on the other hand? Especially one that's been arbitrarily forced to sit in the dark because that's "obviously" the best way to detect intruders? Yeah, that guy is probably so engrossed in picking his nose or muttering to himself about how his superiors are total idiots to notice, even if the party Bard walked up to him singing a song.

[MaxWilson]

I won't dispute that speed is an important factor for many characters; if nothing else, the ability to flee effectively can be a life-saver! However, under most circumstances, unless you're playing a skirmisher style character, the difference between 25 (Dwarf) and 35 (Wood Elf) is largely insignificant. Most "dungeon" combats will occur in small-ish spaces, no larger than 50-60ft square. The same can be said for pretty much any indoor melee. That (up to) 10ft difference in speed isn't going to have that much impact once the melee is joined, because barring a few unusual situations, you'll be able to catch your foe regardless. Outdoor combats and larger scale building/caverns are another matter, but in those circumstances, yes, that extra 5ft might make all the difference, but then again, it probably won't.

Against an attacker with 30' move (very common), a dwarf (25') will take opportunity attacks every round until he dies, whereas a Wood Elf (35') will take opportunity attacks once.

This is as true in a dungeon as outdoors, except that in a dungeon there are additional options like spiking doors shut behind you or ducking behind a corner and hiding, that can sometimes let you survive even as a dwarf. But anyone with high movement (like a Wood Elf or a Mobile human) still has the advantage when it comes to staying alive.

Of course, staying alive is not a serious concern in all games. If your DM feels a moral or social obligation to keep PCs alive--if the onus is on the DM to not make monsters "too strong"--then ability to flee matters less, and dwarves are relatively stronger. But in that kind of a game, who cares what is "stronger" anyway?


Now let's consider that even with Darkvision, most sentient creatures aren't going to be hanging around in the dark themselves; Darkvision is rubbish for, well, pretty much anything except having a scrap in the dark. Can't get any reading done, probably not a lot of fine-detail work at all, no art appreciation or any of the finer things. Hell, can't even do any cooking, 'cos that fire gives off light too (and before you start in on the "a cooking fire doesn't give off a lot of light", I'll remind you to think of the last time you were cooking over an open fire in the dark and how little you were paying attention to anything but that fire and the people immediately around it; people are simple and predictable things when it comes to stuff like that and I doubt any Orc or Gnoll is much different).

Sure, a top-notch sentry or guard that's alert to intruders will probably notice an approaching light-source. A tired and bored one, on the other hand? Especially one that's been arbitrarily forced to sit in the dark because that's "obviously" the best way to detect intruders? Yeah, that guy is probably so engrossed in picking his nose or muttering to himself about how his superiors are total idiots to notice, even if the party Bard walked up to him singing a song.

The bolded line is the crux of your argument. There are two problems with it:

(1) D&D is chock-full of non-tool-using enemies with Darkvision or better. A chuul or an intellect devourer or a gargoyle or a blue dragon is definitely going to pick up on an approaching light source, because they're sure not lighting any fires themselves, and a light source stands out clearly in their home environments.

(2) Top-notch sentries and guards are the ones most likely to give you real problems anyway--why needlessly optimize your behavior for beating tired, bored, and incompetent sentries?

[GreyBlack]

Thus it has been, thus it shall be.

In every edition of D&D, the only races that you would consider playing for most characters were elves or humans. In 1e, elves could switch back and forth between fighting men and magic users, while humans could progress to any level in any class.

2e, elves had the most multi-classing options and had an unlimited level cap in wizards, while humans could be any class in the game.

3e - Humans get a feat, and there was a variant of elves that you could grab that would give you the stat buffs you wanted for whatever build you were playing.

4e.... not enough experience, but I'm sure someone can come up with it.

5e is just continuing that tradition.

Of note: It's not to say there's no reason not to play other races. Just that, mechanically speaking, humans and elves tended to be the strongest core races throughout D&D history.

[MaxWilson]

2e, elves had the most multi-classing options and had an unlimited level cap in wizards, while humans could be any class in the game.

Nitpick: it wasn't unlimited.

In 2nd edition, according to my memory of the 2nd edition DMG, elves were capped at level 16 as wizards, or level 19 if the DMG was using the optional rules on Exceeding Level Limits and the elf in question had somehow acquired Int 19+.

But to your main point: you're certainly correct that elves and especially half-elves had the highest level limits and the best multiclassing options, and humans had the only dual-classing options. Only Athasian thri-kreen and half-giants were obviously better picks than humans/elves/half-elves.

[Arkhios]

If V. Humans are so good then why aren't more PC's human?

I've seen a party with 5 PC's, all Elves or half-elves, but I've never seen an all human party.

Ever.

I've run a campaign like that, in a world where pretty much any race would've been allowed.

It was ... interesting, but quickly became kinda boring. Even frustrating, if I used conditions of dim light or lack of light, and none had means to see in the dark.

[GreyBlack]

Nitpick: it wasn't unlimited.

In 2nd edition, according to my memory of the 2nd edition DMG, elves were capped at level 16 as wizards, or level 19 if the DMG was using the optional rules on Exceeding Level Limits and the elf in question had somehow acquired Int 19+.

But to your main point: you're certainly correct that elves and especially half-elves had the highest level limits and the best multiclassing options, and humans had the only dual-classing options. Only Athasian thri-kreen and half-giants were obviously better picks than humans/elves/half-elves.

You're correct; Half-elf bards had unlimited level potential, but elves had no unlimited level option. My bad. Also, I said that elves had the most multi-class options; this was false, as gnomes and half-elves had more, though elves did have access to the third most single classes out of all of the core races, with higher level limits than almost all of them. Only half-elves and humans have access to more (Elves: 5, Half-elves: 7, Humans: 9).

Again, at this point we're kinda just nit-picking though. It does kinda demonstrate that you'd rather be an elf, half-elf, or human in most of the D&D editions.

[Unoriginal]

For characters that do what I want then to do Elves and half-elves get the goodies I want mechanically.

Role-playing wise, I'd like to play humans and half-orcs, but I know I weaken the abilities of my PC's when I choose that (as for the "but Feats" argument for V. Humans, nope I don't see it, as it would take multiple Feats to equal the goodies Elves and half-elves get, so one extra Feat at first level isn't enough).

If V. Humans are so good then why aren't more PC's human?

I've seen a party with 5 PC's, all Elves or half-elves, but I've never seen an all human party.

Ever.

It's your personal experience, but I think WotC released a survey showing human was the most played species in 5e.


In any case, I really don't see how Elves or Half-Elves are supposed to be stronger than say, the Half-Orc.

It there is a power difference, it's peanut-sized.

[2D8HP]

It's your personal experience, but I think WotC released a survey showing human was the most played species in 5e.


In any case, I really don't see how Elves or Half-Elves are supposed to be stronger than say, the Half-Orc.

It there is a power difference, it's peanut-sized.


Okay, let's break it down:

Elves:
+2 to DEX, the stat I most want of all six stats, so worth an ASI all on it's own!

Perception as a bonus skill, only the most useful skill of all!

Darkvision. Can you even get this as a Feat? And Darkvision comes up more than most Feats!

Advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can't put you to sleep. Not bad but it doesn't come up often.

Trance, I'd just call flavor.

But subrace brings more!

High Elf:
+1 to INT, half an ASI but otherwise blah

Proficiency with longsword, shortsword, swortbow, and longbow. My Rogue doesn't have to lose a level just to get proficiency in the weapon I most want my PC's to use!

A Cantrip. That's actually pretty cool, in case ypu run out of arrows you can cast Firebolt, without my having to lose a level.

And an Extra language on top of the two (Common, and Elvish) that an Elf PC starts with!

All in all, I'd say starting as a High Elf is worth 4 ASI's

Wood Elf:
+1 to WIS, worth half an ASI but in a much more useful stat.

Same extra proficiencies as a High Elf. Longbow! Longbow! Longbow!

35 base walking speed, being able to run away from and "kite" ones foes is AWESOME!

Super hiding abilities

By Crom after making this list, it's a wonder that all my PC's aren't Wood Elves! Worth at least five ASI's!

Dark Elf:
Actually kinda lame, play a Wood Elf instead.

Half-Elf:
+2 to CHA, which is great for Swashbuckler Rogues, and +1 to any two stats of your choice, this is worth one or two ASI"s alone!

Darkvision. This is better than most Feats

Two extra skills.

Better saves against being charmed

An extra language.

I'd say a Half Elf is worth 3 ASI's, 4 if your playing a Swashbuckler (which is AWESOME!), or one of the myriad CHA based spell casting classes if you're into that

Half-Orc:
+2 to STR and +1 to CON. Not as awesome as the +2 to DEX, but nice anyway

Darkvision. So very worth it

Proficiency in Intimidation. Did you give yourself a high CHA? If not, hope the DM let's you substitute STR as a base for this, even then still blah.

1 HP instead of 0 HP once per long rest. Pretty cool, but doesn't come up much.

And then there's the whole extra damage critical thing, which is wonky and I'm not going to remember it.

You can speak Orc.

Worth 3 ASI's.

Human:
+1 to all six stats. In theory worth 3 ASI's, but let's face it, two of those stats will probably be ones you don't care about much.

An extra language.


Worth 2.5 ASI's

V. Human:
A Feat, so one ASI, but I've never found a Feat as useful as Darkvision.

An extra skill.

+1 to two stats.

I'd call this worth 2.75 ASIs

You play a human to role-play a human.

After compiling this list yep, for doing what I want my PC's to do yep, Elf and Half-Elf do have the goods.

I play humans for role-playing reasons.

If I could trade STR or CON for DEX I'd find Half-Orc more tempting, but otherwise, I'd play one for role-playing reasons.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I suggest that if you've never found a feat as useful as darkvision you're probably playing in a fairly small box. Darkvision is very helpful some percentage of the time and does nothing at all the rest of the time. In my experience the times it matters are outnumbered by the times I'd rather have a feat like Lucky. You shouldn't be weighting darkvision against 'a feat generally'; you should be measuring it against the best possible feat the character can have.

I think you're underrating half-orcs and their racial abilities. Relentless Endurance can potentially give you an extra turn; Savage Attacks potentially turns a multi-turn kill into a single-turn kill at lower levels. Both of those are ways for low-level characters to cheat out extra effective actions. At low levels of play that's much more valuable than having access to firebolt if you run out of arrows.

Elves, half-elves and halflings are generally good for the characters I want to play, but that's because I've made the choice to play rogues, bards, warlocks and wizards. When I broaden my horizons and play Str or Wis-based characters, I'm sure I'll find myself looking at other races more favorably. And, of course, viewing the race options through the prism of "only high dex high cha characters" is going to skew my perceptions of them, which I think is what might be happening to you.

[white lancer]

All of that analysis mostly proves that Elves are good at the type of class that you like to play, which seems to be the Rogue. Which is fair, they're great Rogues...but it doesn't mean they're better for any other class. The Longbow thing really ONLY matters for Rogues, as all other classes either wouldn't be very good with bows to begin with (not being Dex-based), or get longbow proficiency automatically (Fighter, Ranger, Valor Bard)...and I don't even know that it's that huge of an upgrade even for Rogues. Crossbows are perfectly fine for ranged Rogues, especially since they only get one attack per round anyway so they aren't bothered by the loading properties. The extra range on the longbow is nice, but not even close to be worth an ASI (and you'd way, way rather grab a feat like Sharpshooter).

The longbow is nice (for Rogues only), the cantrip is nice (but worse for a spellcasting class), fey ancestry and trance are nice (but won't be important all that often), the extra 5 feet of movement are nice, the Perception is nice (but it's trivially easy to get Perception on any PC via backgrounds, so it's not significantly better than the skill Half-Orc gets), and the extra language will come up sometimes. You'd rather have these things than not have them, but none of them are all that powerful individually. Darkvision is better, and is one of the main advantages of Elves over humans, but you can easily mitigate not having Darkvision in most cases...and Half-Orcs and most other non-human races get Darkvision anyway, so it's a wash in those comparisons. I like Mask of the Wild, but it's not a game-breaker either...though admittedly it's a very useful upgrade when playing as a Rogue in wilderness settings.

The bottom line is that most racial bonuses in 5e are just that--bonuses. They're nice to have, but they aren't game-changers, so the actual ability increases are the majority of a reason why you'd select a class. That means Elves are much better Rogues/Monks than Half-Orcs, but Half-Orcs are much better Barbarians/Paladins/Str-based Fighters/Rangers than Elves. The rest of the stuff hardly matters compared to whether the race gives a bonus to the abilities your class cares about. The reason VHumans are so good is that feats, unlike most racial bonuses, can be complete and utter game-changers (and they still get stat bumps to the two abilities your class wants most, along with any skill they want). Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter are massive bumps to damage, Lucky is helpful for literally everyone, Shield Master and Crossbow Expert and a number of others are a huge bump to their particular strategies. Any of these are going to be relevant in virtually every combat, while most racial abilities will be useful sometimes and will do nothing other times.

[2D8HP]

All of that analysis mostly proves that Elves are good at the type of class that you like to play....


Oh yeah, I said as much in my first post to this thread:


For characters that do what I want then to do Elves and half-elves get the goodies I want mechanically....


I like PC's with Archery Fighting Style, Cunning Action, Expertise, Extra Attack, and Sneak Attack, so a conga-line of Fighter/Rogues.

But let's delve a little deeper, on why Elves have the goodies.


+ 2 DEX.


Better AC

Better To Hit, even at Range!

More Damage, even at Range!

Better Stealth, and

Better Initiative.

That's a lot!

It's hard for me to think of a Feat, or another stat boost that does so much!

[white lancer]

Sure, I agree that Dex is awesome, and Elves are great when playing Dex classes! I'm just saying that they're not especially amazing for non-Dex based classes, which IMO puts them in a similar category as Half-Orc, Dwarves, and most other races. Whereas Half-Elves and VHumans can be good to great as any class thanks to their flexibility.

[2D8HP]

....Half-Elves and VHumans can be good to great as any class thanks to their flexibility.


I agree that Half-Elves have a lot of versatility, even when you don't have much use for the CHA, the extra skills, stats, language, and Darkvision come in handy.

V. Human, on-the-other-hand...
...all the Feats look cool, but none look as good as the Darkvision and stat bonuses and other goodies other races get.

I keep seeing posts to the effect that Sharpshooter is the Feat to grab, but it doesn't look as good to me aa an ASI, especially when I see that to get the +10 to damage, you reduce the chance to hit.

And that kind of bugs me, because downtrodden human or half orc peasant whip becomes a robin hood type outlaw rebel archer, and/or swashbuckler is what I want to play, but Elf or near Elf looks better to me crunch wise.


:frown:

[kardar233]

Variant Human loses a single stat plus relative to most races. Two only compared to Half-Elf and Mountain Dwarf.

Sharpshooter is amazing if you have a reliable source of accuracy boosting. Rogues, with their Cunning Action Hide, can Hide and shoot with advantage basically every turn, compensating for the to-hit penalty of Sharpshooter and boosting their damage significantly.

We’ve had this discussion before, but I think you severely overvalue Darkvision. I think it’s probably a matter of context.

[2D8HP]

...Rogues, with their Cunning Action Hide, can Hide and shoot with advantage basically every turn, compensating for the to-hit penalty of Sharpshooter and boosting their damage significantly...


Now, that is an interesting idea, thanks!

Any equivalents to "Mask of the Wild" available to non-Wood-elves?

[kardar233]

Skulker feat allows you to hide when lightly obscured no matter the terrain, plus gets you non-range-limited pseudo-Darkvision. Also has a nice bonus when you attack from hidden; they don’t notice you if you miss.

Battlemaster Fighters are the other common Sharpshooters as they can use Precision Attack to make their Sharpshooter shots hit.

[Contrast]

Sharpshooter is amazing if you have a reliable source of accuracy boosting.

Bless and Fairy Fire are also both low level options that boost up that accuracy. Just being a fighter and having the archery fighting style gets you halfway there as well.


We’ve had this discussion before, but I think you severely overvalue Darkvision. I think it’s probably a matter of context.

Darkvision is amazing...assuming the DM/adventure cares about it and you're not high enough level that someone can burn spell slots casting darkvision on you. In my experience many DMs do hand wave the impact of light sources but its so crippling when they don't that I'm not prepared to take the risk when I'm trying to make a sneaky character.


Any equivalents to "Mask of the Wild" available to non-Wood-elves?

Lightfoot halflings can hide behind other people (but no darkvision alas :smallwink:).

[2D8HP]

Skulker feat allows...


Lightfoot halflings can....


Thank you very much for the tips!


:smile:

[LudicSavant]

On the contrary I feel that many of the non-human races are too restrictive in their scope. I wish every race was designed such that it could fit well into most or all classes.

[MaxWilson]

The Longbow thing really ONLY matters for Rogues, as all other classes either wouldn't be very good with bows to begin with (not being Dex-based), or get longbow proficiency automatically (Fighter, Ranger, Valor Bard)...and I don't even know that it's that huge of an upgrade even for Rogues.

A Wood Elf Shadow Monk at my table really appreciated her longbow proficiency. Higher damage on two attacks per turn, and longer range. She was still fairly anemic in damage output compared to the dedicated ranged specialists, but it would have been worse if she were stuck with shortbows.

[kardar233]

On the contrary I feel that many of the non-human races are too restrictive in their scope. I wish every race was designed such that it could fit well into most or all classes.

I agree. I’ve been looking at taking a page from 13th Age and allowing the player to pick one ASI to spend on the race’s standard ability scores and one to spend on the class’s ability scores. If you had a Hill Dwarf Monk, you’d get one ASI to spend on (Con or Wis) and one to spend on (Wis or Dex) to a maximum of two points in any score.

[Armored Walrus]

OP, I don't think it's just you, but it *is* your mindset. Are the other races suboptimal? I guess that can be debated. Whether or not that bothers you is an entirely *you* question. Personally I've never played any of the big three races.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It's hard for me to think of a Feat, or another stat boost that does so much!

At any level before 5 I'd rather have the half-orc endurance racial trait than +2 Dex, assuming I'm not locking myself into an archer. And I can't take seriously elves being too strong when yuan-ti purebloods exist, because those are basically broke.

As far as a single ability score carrying the most weight, I'd say Cha. Melee weapon attack and damage, ranged attack and damage, spell to-hit and damage through agonizing blast and eldritch blast and save DC. And if what you're concerned about is initiative, Alert is +5 with secondary benefits.