What's up with hydras?

[Jon_Dahl]

The PCs just got ambushed by a 9-headed hydra. A 12th-level cleric and a warmage 8/cleric 1 died quite easily. The last surviving PC, an expert 6/horizon walker 7, managed to kill it. I don't understand how hydras are "fair" opponents. Could someone comment hydras vs. PCs, please?

[Seto]

Hydras are the textbook example of a monster you need to be prepared for and employ specific tactics against. Mostly: bring fire or acid, slashing damage, and battlefield control (immobilizing it and keeping your distance is a good way to deal with it). Were they warned, or was it a surprise/random encounter? Personally, I've used it as a boss monster that they had cryptic clues (and could use Divination) to prepare for.

[Mike Miller]

The Monster Manual does warn you about the potential threat the Hydra poses. They were designed to be a difficult encounter. You shouldn't be throwing hydras out as random encounters.

[Jon_Dahl]

The Monster Manual does warn you about the potential threat the Hydra poses. They were designed to be a difficult encounter. You shouldn't be throwing hydras out as random encounters.

I didn't read the Monster Manual. I just took the monster from the d20srd.org.

[SirNibbles]

Hydras are slow-moving and, except for Pyro/Cryohydras, have no ability to attack at range.

Entangle halves a Hydra's movement (no save), so now it's at 10 ft. Hydras are found in marshes, so you have plenty of plants for Entangle to work. If you don't have anyone to cast entangle, surely your 8th level Warmage has Black Tentacles, which has the same no-save half-movement effect.

Then it's just a matter of debuffing it a bit and smashing it.

Seriously though, even if you can't kill it, it's not hard to run away tactically move away from the enemy.

[Nifft]

Hydra is among the creatures that will ruin your day if you don't see it coming and prepare -- or if you're not strong enough that you can prepare.

I'm guessing your Cleric 12 is the melee tank who just waded in, expecting to be able to survive close combat.

Your Warmage should have been fighting from a distance, and should have had a few ways to make the fight unfair -- for example, the level 4 Orb spells contain some single-round "no actions for you" debuffs. Some of those are a decent way to stop the hydra from moving around while you kill it from range.

I'm guessing your Expert / Horizon Walker is playing paranoid D&D, and didn't try to tank the blender. That's my best guess as to why that PC survived.

[Blackhawk748]

Hydras are on the short list of monsters that can actually solo a party at proper CRs. Basically the thing is a walking blender and if your PCs are dumb enough to get in close they will be eaten

[Jon_Dahl]

This is what happened:

There was a village, on the fringes of a large kingdom, where a retired adventurer (9-level bard) dwelt. He and his wife loved dogs and they always wanted to have a dog after they had settled down. When the adventurer and his group destroyed a powerful gnoll tribe, the adventurer decided to assume the guardianship of one the gnoll children and retire. The couple had children later on and it was a normal and happy family, but it was never quite clear if the gnoll was a child or a pet... or both. The adventurer taught the gnoll his skills because he wanted to pass his talents onto the next generation. The problem was that the gnoll felt that he always came last even though he was so powerful and he would have been a better warrior than a bard, but his opinions never mattered. He was murderously resentful.

One day he stole his adoptive father's Cloak of Charisma, which gave him access to 4th-level spells (the gnoll's natural charisma was so low), and he escaped to the Many-Head-Place, a forbidden swamp. The place was isolated from the villages by rapids called the Headful Rapids. The retired adventurer tried to look for the gnoll, but he was ambushed and killed by the gnoll and his charmed 9-headed hydra.

The gnoll then made the swamp his base of operations. He lured the hydra to stay in the rapids and managed to get the hydra to attack people who were walking on the bridge which happened to be the only method to cross the rapids (barring magic). The underwater hydra killed people crossing the bridge while the gnoll gave support.

The PCs went to check the disappearance of the retired adventurer, but they teleported over the rapids (no hydra attack) and all four failed to spot the hiding gnoll. They went back to speak with the villagers, but the villagers didn't understand why the players had checked the swamp but hadn't checked the bridge. The villagers asked to check if the bridge had somehow failed when the retired adventurer had used it. The PCs agree. Two of the PCs teleported to the swamp, the cohort stayed behind on the other side of the rapids and the warmage/cleric went to see the bridge. They all rolled spot checks and no one saw the hydra hiding in the rapids. When the warmage/cleric was crossing the bridge, the hydra used its surprise round to come near the bridge. The PCs got to roll Knowledge (Arcana) checks to understand what the creature was and know its weaknesses, but rolls were too low. The warmage/cleric decided to turn back and return to the cohort, but the hydra got an AoO and inflicted 61 hp of damage which killed the PC outright. The 12th-level cleric severely hurt the hydra with a blade barrier and the spell destroyed the bridge as well. The cohort was cut off from the fight when the hydra moved towards the expert/horizon walker and cleric while cleric's blade barrier blocked line of sight from the cohort. The gnoll came to aid the hydra and turned himself invisible. The cleric blasted the hydra with two Flame Strikes and used Slay Living as well, but the hydra took it all and killed the cleric. Then the Expert/Horizon walker killed the hydra with his longspear and then the gnoll fled. The stranded cohort heard what had happened later on because he didn't see the battle and he couldn't cross the rapids since the bridge had been destroyed.

[SirNibbles]

The warmage/cleric decided to turn back and return to the cohort, but the hydra got an AoO and inflicted 61 hp of damage which killed the PC outright.

This sounds wrong.

1. Withdraw?
2. How does a 1d10+5 end up doing 61 damage?

[Elkad]

Hydras are great monsters.

For exactly the same reason that shadows and manticores and several other things are.

You can't just run straight at it and beat it to death.

The shadow keeps hiding in the walls. The Manticore is circling above you shooting. The Hydra is easy to get to, but it will out-DPS you, and out-tank you.
The Hydra has a bonus though. It "looks" solvable by straight up melee damage. The deception is key.

None of those are particularly hard encounters if you are prepared. Yet all of them have the potential to wipe a party that isn't, even at what would normally be a laughably low CR for the party to handle.


This sounds wrong.

1. Withdraw?
2. How does a 1d10+5 end up doing 61 damage?

Because if you provoke, EVERY head gets the AoO. And it has lots of reach, while Withdraw only gets you out of one square safely.

[Jon_Dahl]

This sounds wrong.

1. Withdraw?
2. How does a 1d10+5 end up doing 61 damage?

https://media.giphy.com/media/etfzQDfD0nSLu/giphy.gif

[SirNibbles]

Hydras are great monsters.

For exactly the same reason that shadows and manticores and several other things are.

You can't just run straight at it and beat it to death.

The shadow keeps hiding in the walls. The Manticore is circling above you shooting. The Hydra is easy to get to, but it will out-DPS you, and out-tank you.
The Hydra has a bonus though. It "looks" solvable by straight up melee damage. The deception is key.

None of those are particularly hard encounters if you are prepared. Yet all of them have the potential to wipe a party that isn't, even at what would normally be a laughably low CR for the party to handle.



Because if you provoke, EVERY head gets the AoO. And it has lots of reach, while Withdraw only gets you out of one square safely.

10' reach isn't really lots, but okay.

My understanding was that the number of heads replaced the Dex modifier in determining how many AoOs it could make in a single round for Combat Reflexes. That is, it can make 9 AoOs per round (1 per head). Where does it say that it gets 9 attacks per opportunity?

[ericgrau]

Hydras are the textbook example of a monster you need to be prepared for and employ specific tactics against. Mostly: bring fire or acid, slashing damage, and battlefield control (immobilizing it and keeping your distance is a good way to deal with it). Were they warned, or was it a surprise/random encounter? Personally, I've used it as a boss monster that they had cryptic clues (and could use Divination) to prepare for.

This, and even without forewarning do allow knowledge checks. And players should know when to run, regroup, investigate and come back with a better plan instead of fighting everything to the death. They're similar to vampires in that if you don't know their weaknesses you're in trouble.

Per the DMG you're actually supposed to send over-CR encounters sometimes for this reason, so players don't blindly fight everything... but you better be ready for several deaths and TPKs during the learning experience if you want to actually DM this way.


10' reach isn't really lots, but okay.

My understanding was that the number of heads replaced the Dex modifier in determining how many AoOs it could make in a single round for Combat Reflexes. That is, it can make 9 AoOs per round (1 per head). Where does it say that it gets 9 attacks per opportunity?
It doesn't say one way or the other and this is the subject of much debate. But your answer makes more sense to me. If it means 9 AoOs per opportunity instead of per round, how the heck is it related to the combat reflexes feat that's supposed to make it happen? (other than "it just makes it happen").

[Jon_Dahl]

This, and even without forewarning knowledge checks and knowing when to run. They're similar to vampires in that if you don't know their weaknesses you're in trouble.

There was the name of the swamp, the Many-Head-Place, and the name of the rapids, the Headful Rapids, and one of the PCs (the expert/horizon walker) had at-will dimension door (while the hydra's speed was 20 ft.) and the hydra was hiding in the water with a +5 hide modifier (including circumstance bonus). I feel that they had enough chances to watch out.

[ericgrau]

There was the name of the swamp, the Many-Head-Place, and the name of the rapids, the Headful Rapids, and the one of the PCs (the expert/horizon walker) had at-will dimension door (while the hydra's speed was 20 ft.) and the hydra was hidden in the water with a +5 hide modifier (including circumstance bonus). I feel that they had enough chances to watch out.

Ahhh... I see now. Don't EVER expect the players to read your mind. Even if your hints seem to make sense to you, they may not make any sense to them. Even if you do provide a fair challenge that can be figured out without knowing what you're thinking, sometimes people fail challenges. Don't let it be a TPK or near-TPK when they do, any more than you'd let it happen from a single bad die roll. Shoot for a partial risk of killing or knocking unconscious 1 PC.

In fact the general rules is that players will usually do what you don't expect them to do. If something hinges on players doing exactly one thing, 95% chance they won't. This isn't a failure of the players to play well so much as everyone thinks differently and nobody will match what the DM is thinking.

[Crake]

It doesn't say one way or the other and this is the subject of much debate. But your answer makes more sense to me. If it means 9 AoOs per opportunity instead of per round, how the heck is it related to the combat reflexes feat that's supposed to make it happen? (other than "it just makes it happen").

Something I've never really looked at in depth, but reading it, I think what it MAY have meant is that each head provokes individually. So combat reflexes gives it 2 attacks of opportunity for each head, in essence allowing it 18 attacks of opportunity, but each opportunity can be exploited up to 9 times.

For example, if you provoked, it killed you in 4 attacks, five of it's heads would still have two attacks of opportunity remaining, so another person might provoke, get attacked 9 times, but still escape, leaving it with 5 heads that have one attack of opportunity left, and it might manage to nip another person for two attacks and a final person for three attacks.

Basically, pretend there are 9 "creatures" threatening you (though thankfully, it would still be a single tumble check to avoid the entire creature, though a mean DM might say you would need to tumble against each individually)

[Uncle Pine]

Well, at least the party didn't meet an ochre jelly/hydra mash-up scampering around after the original Master Transmogrifist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?450678-Be-the-Wizard-Who-Did-It-Master-Transmogrifist-Handbook) who created it died.

[Elkad]

10' reach isn't really lots, but okay.
Oh, I'm a bad DM!
I've honestly never looked at their Reach amount. Matter of fact, I've been doing it wrong for basically everything that should be "long" instead of "tall".
I just had Huge=15' filed away for every case.


Something I've never really looked at in depth, but reading it, I think what it MAY have meant is that each head provokes individually. So combat reflexes gives it 2 attacks of opportunity for each head, in essence allowing it 18 attacks of opportunity, but each opportunity can be exploited up to 9 times.

For example, if you provoked, it killed you in 4 attacks, five of it's heads would still have two attacks of opportunity remaining, so another person might provoke, get attacked 9 times, but still escape, leaving it with 5 heads that have one attack of opportunity left, and it might manage to nip another person for two attacks and a final person for three attacks.

Basically, pretend there are 9 "creatures" threatening you (though thankfully, it would still be a single tumble check to avoid the entire creature, though a mean DM might say you would need to tumble against each individually)

That's exactly how I read it. And if the friendly swamp shaman gives it a Cats Grace, it gets 36 AoOs total (still limited to number-of-heads per provocation).

Edit: I also run Ettins the same way, even though they don't have Combat Reflexes. 2 brains, 2 actions. It doesn't specifically say that, but "each of its two heads controls an arm" seems straightforward to me.

[Tvtyrant]

Hydras aren't so bad. They are kind of lile the brutish version of a beholder, lots of attacks but as they tend to live alone they die to focus fire.

Now Beholdras, those are terrifying. Multiheaded template applied many times to a Beholder is a great end game boss.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hydras aren't an opponent you want to go toe-to-toe with unless you have Displacement or Greater Invisibility or similar. You just can't tank their attacks.

Trying to cut off its heads is generally a waste of time, but there are plenty of ways to easily take one down. Glitterdust against their low Will save prevents them from making AoOs and imposes a 50% miss chance on every one of their attacks. If your melee characters take a 5-ft. step after attacking, it's wasting attacks on empty squares trying to find them. Ray of Stupidity vs their touch AC 9 will automatically disable one, allowing your party to CDG it repeatedly.


It's possible to make a Hydra even more dangerous, such as adding Snatch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch) along with Improved Snatch and Multisnatch from the Draconomicon. This allows every bite that hits to initiate an improved grab against a medium or smaller target, and it can hold the character with just that head by taking a -10 penalty to its substantial grapple bonus. Since the held character and just that head are independently in a grapple, any other heads biting that character are doing so from outside the grapple, thus ignoring the character's Dex and Dodge bonuses to AC.

A hydra ambush can be just brutal when underwater or if it attacks from deep water. It can grab them and hold them underwater while still attacking, and put one head above water to take a breath when needed. Even at the very high levels they can still be a challenge in the right situation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?322346-Volcanic-mountain-cavern-style-dungeon-as-red-dragon-lair#2).

[Bronk]

The PCs just got ambushed by a 9-headed hydra. A 12th-level cleric and a warmage 8/cleric 1 died quite easily. The last surviving PC, an expert 6/horizon walker 7, managed to kill it. I don't understand how hydras are "fair" opponents. Could someone comment hydras vs. PCs, please?

So, a nine headed hydra is a base CR8, but this is modified upwards by the ambush.

It also looks like the attacks of opportunity were a run in an overpowering way. Their combat reflexes feat is modified from it's normal function to 'one attack for each head', which is already a lot more than the two it would normally get with the feat. However, the entry doesn't say anything about changing the rules for attacks of opportunity being one attack at a time, so in this case one bite per provocation.

Anyway, next time they should know to just teleport away, or fly overhead to fight the thing. I'd say, let them get cheap resurrections and sweep this under the rug.

[onlyfro]

I planned a hydra encounter for my players, and I wanted to surprise them and challenge them without simply destroying them. The hydra was camped in a mountain ravine that was spanned by a bridge. The PCs were commissioned to investigate the bridge and find out why travellers were disappearing in its vicinity. None of the nearby villagers knew about the hydra, but they warned the PCs that trolls often waylaid travellers near that bridge (which was true - everyone and their brother Grimm knows that trolls camp under bridges).

So the characters did their due research and preparation, bought some acid and alchemist's fire, and set off toward the ravine. Before they reached the ravine, they encountered trolls that seemed to be trying to flee from something. The PCs used up half of their supplies to easily defeat the trolls (who were several CRs lower than the party), and then continued on to the bridge where they encountered a deadly hydra with regenerating heads, and they only had a few remaining spells and flasks of acid.

All in all, it was a fair and balanced yet effective surprise encounter.

[ericgrau]

Something I've never really looked at in depth, but reading it, I think what it MAY have meant is that each head provokes individually. So combat reflexes gives it 2 attacks of opportunity for each head, in essence allowing it 18 attacks of opportunity, but each opportunity can be exploited up to 9 times.

For example, if you provoked, it killed you in 4 attacks, five of it's heads would still have two attacks of opportunity remaining, so another person might provoke, get attacked 9 times, but still escape, leaving it with 5 heads that have one attack of opportunity left, and it might manage to nip another person for two attacks and a final person for three attacks.

Basically, pretend there are 9 "creatures" threatening you (though thankfully, it would still be a single tumble check to avoid the entire creature, though a mean DM might say you would need to tumble against each individually)

Except it doesn't do this from being treated like 9 individual creatures. It actually says:

A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.
i.e., without the feat it would not be able to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

In fact the attack of opportunity rules specifically say regarding combat reflexes:

This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity
The hydra's ability to attack with all of its heads in attacks of opportunity comes from a feat for which the rules explicitly say it does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity.

The combat reflexes feat itself is even worded just as generally as the hydra's ability:

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

[Celestia]

Except it doesn't do this from being treated like 9 individual creatures. It actually says:

i.e., without the feat it would not be able to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity. Even though it's still a 9 headed creature. And this comes from a feat that allows more than 1 attack of opportunity per round. By default you can only make 1 attack per opportunity and nothing in this text or the feat overcomes that. Maybe if it said "an attack of opportunity" or "each attack of opportunity". But "attacks of opportunity" does not specify that it can use all its heads for each opportunity, just all its heads for attacks of opportunity in general. So we go back to the default rule which is 1 per opportunity, but it can use all 9, so it can do it up to 9 times per round.
That is one way to read it. Another, equally valid, way would be that it can use all its heads each time it makes an attack of opportunity. This interpretation, however, is supported by the rest of the stat block, specifically the fact that its standard attack also uses all of its heads. The clear implication is that for a nine headed hydra, one attack = nine bites.

[ericgrau]

That is one way to read it. Another, equally valid, way would be that it can use all its heads each time it makes an attack of opportunity. This interpretation, however, is supported by the rest of the stat block, specifically the fact that its standard attack also uses all of its heads. The clear implication is that for a nine headed hydra, one attack = nine bites.

Sorry my browser was being problematic with the edits and they came slow. Please see edits.

It's not equally valid. It clearly violates the rules for combat reflexes. To say otherwise requires heavy rules twisting and generous readings of what you want it to say while ignoring other parts you don't want to see. There's nothing in the hydra entry that allows a specific exception any more than what's already in the combat reflexes feat.

[Celestia]

Sorry my browser was being problematic with the edits and they came slow. Please see edits.

It's not equally valid. It clearly violates the rules for combat reflexes. To say otherwise requires heavy rules twisting and generous readings of what you want it to say while ignoring other parts you don't want to see. There's nothing in the hydra entry that allows a specific exception any more than what's already in the combat reflexes feat.
D&D is an exception based system were specific trumps general. The general rule is that you can make one attack per opportunity. The specific rule is that hydras make as many as they have heads. This coincides with their stat block, as I said. The general rule is that you can only make one attack per standard attack. The specific rule is that hydras can make as many as they have heads. Hydras are explicitly already violating the general rules on attack limits. Why wouldn't they continue to do so?

[Seto]

I don't know about RAW, but in an actual game I'd lean towards the "1 attack per opportunity and up to 9 opportunities" interpretation. It can already move and full attack, taking 9 hits everytime you try to move away from it (or towards it, since it has reach) just sounds stupidly punishing. Not too mention tedious and time-consuming, since in that kind of fight, several players will probably regularly move around.

Also, just picturing the scene is an argument in favor of that interpretation being RAI. A Hydra has many heads, therefore it can pay attention to several opponents at once, therefore it can attack all around itself (or several times) simultaneously. Now imagine several PCs fleeing from it in the same round, each in a different direction. Do you see them each pursued by one head that tries to bite them before they get away? Or do you see each of them getting somehow mauled by all 9 heads in very quick succession?

TLDR: 1 attack per opportunity is more reasonable power-wise, fairer to the player who makes a bad move, and makes much more sense visually. I'm pretty sure that's RAI, at least I'd rule it that way.

[Celestia]

I don't know about RAW, but in an actual game I'd lean towards the "1 attack per opportunity and up to 9 opportunities" interpretation. It can already move and full attack, taking 9 hits everytime you try to move away from it (or towards it, since it has reach) just sounds stupidly punishing. Not too mention tedious and time-consuming, since in that kind of fight, several players will probably regularly move around.

Also, just picturing the scene is an argument in favor of that interpretation being RAI. A Hydra has many heads, therefore it can pay attention to several opponents at once, therefore it can attack all around itself (or several times) simultaneously. Now imagine several PCs fleeing from it in the same round, each in a different direction. Do you see them each pursued by one head that tries to bite them before they get away? Or do you see each of them getting somehow mauled by all 9 heads in very quick succession?

TLDR: 1 attack per opportunity is more reasonable power-wise, fairer to the player who makes a bad move, and makes much more sense visually. I'm pretty sure that's RAI, at least I'd rule it that way.
You do make a compelling case.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's not equally valid. It clearly violates the rules for combat reflexes. To say otherwise requires heavy rules twisting and generous readings of what you want it to say while ignoring other parts you don't want to see. There's nothing in the hydra entry that allows a specific exception any more than what's already in the combat reflexes feat.

"Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity."

It could definitely be making an exception to the normal benefit of Combat Reflexes by enabling the hydra to use all of its heads (i.e. bites) when making an attack of opportunity. This isn't the only type of exception of this kind. The feat Double Hit in the Miniatures Handbook allows you to make an offhand attack along with your main hand attack on an attack of opportunity.

Your group could interpret that as it gets a number of AoOs per round equal to its number of heads, instead of the number normally granted by Combat Reflexes, but your use of that interpretation doesn't make the other interpretation any less valid.

[FilthyLucre]

"Feats: A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity."

It could definitely be making an exception to the normal benefit of Combat Reflexes by enabling the hydra to use all of its heads (i.e. bites) when making an attack of opportunity. This isn't the only type of exception of this kind. The feat Double Hit in the Miniatures Handbook allows you to make an offhand attack along with your main hand attack on an attack of opportunity.

Your group could interpret that as it gets a number of AoOs per round equal to its number of heads, instead of the number normally granted by Combat Reflexes, but your use of that interpretation doesn't make the other interpretation any less valid.

This does NOT mean it can make X number of attacks against a single opponent. Read Combat Reflexes feat, read the stipulation about how a Hydra uses the feat, note what the Hydra's Dex stat is, and then note how many heads it has.

The Hydra can make a number of AoO equal to the number of heads it has because the Hydra has a Dex score of 12 and can't even make use of Combat Reflexes. The intent is clearly to let them make more accounts of opportunity than are allowed, not to let them make X at a single target.

A better wording would be a special quality that reads: A hydra may make a number of AoO equal to the number of heads it has, these AoO otherwise follow all the same rules for AoOs.

[Crake]

Also, just picturing the scene is an argument in favor of that interpretation being RAI. A Hydra has many heads, therefore it can pay attention to several opponents at once, therefore it can attack all around itself (or several times) simultaneously. Now imagine several PCs fleeing from it in the same round, each in a different direction. Do you see them each pursued by one head that tries to bite them before they get away? Or do you see each of them getting somehow mauled by all 9 heads in very quick succession?

It depends entirely on which target the hydra's heads are focusing on. If a hydra has been focusing all it's attacks on one target, it would make sense that all the heads are going to go after that target, if it were to provoke. In the given scenario, there was only one target in the first place. So sure, while the heads can split their attacks of opportunity, if they choose to, they can also focus them, should they choose to.


This does NOT mean it can make X number of attacks against a single opponent. Read Combat Reflexes feat, read the stipulation about how a Hydra uses the feat, note what the Hydra's Dex stat is, and then note how many heads it has.

The Hydra can make a number of AoO equal to the number of heads it has because the Hydra has a Dex score of 12 and can't even make use of Combat Reflexes. The intent is clearly to let them make more accounts of opportunity than are allowed, not to let them make X at a single target.

A better wording would be a special quality that reads: A hydra may make a number of AoO equal to the number of heads it has, these AoO otherwise follow all the same rules for AoOs.

You're right, if it had that wording, it would be unambiguously clear what the ruling is. However it doesn't use that wording, and just because you believe it should be worded that way, doesn't mean that's what the rule intends. The way it's written can lead to at least 3 different interpretations, and you really have no authority to definitively state which one is correct.

[FilthyLucre]

You're right, if it had that wording, it would be unambiguously clear what the ruling is. However it doesn't use that wording, and just because you believe it should be worded that way, doesn't mean that's what the rule intends. The way it's written can lead to at least 3 different interpretations, and you really have no authority to definitively state which one is correct.

There is obviously more support/evidence/fewer assumptions with my conclusion. Taking all the premises and combining them, the logical outcome is that a Hydra can make X AoOs per round using its head. Nothing in it's stat block, or the combat reflexes feats, or the broader rules texts, implies that you can ever make more than one AoO for a single provocation unless it is explicitly called out... which it is not in this case. You play the game however you like at the table, but using deduction and RAW the answer is clear.

[Crake]

There is obviously more support/evidence/fewer assumptions with my conclusion. Taking all the premises and combining them, the logical outcome is that a Hydra can make X AoOs per round using its head. Nothing in it's stat block, or the combat reflexes feats, or the broader rules texts, implies that you can ever make more than one AoO for a single provocation unless it is explicitly called out... which it is not in this case. You play the game however you like at the table, but using deduction and RAW the answer is clear.

People have already pointed out that the hydra is full of other exceptions, such as being able to use all it's heads as part of an attack action. If it can use a single attack action to attack with 9 heads, why would it not be able to use a single attack of opportunity to attack with 9 heads as well? The way it's worded seems like it could quite easily be saying that when it uses it's attack of opportunity, it may use all the heads for that attack.

As for it not being explicitly called out, the feat section is the explicit calling out. It literally says "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity." Worded another way this says "For attacks of opportunity a hydra's combat reflexes feat allows the hydra to use all of its heads." It doesn't even come close to saying something like "A hydra's combat reflexes feat allows it to perform one attack of opportunity per head" or something along those lines.

[FilthyLucre]

A Hydra has a Dexterity score of 12, and therefor a Dexterity Modifier of +1
The SRD states: "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round."
The SRD states: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
The Hydra has the Combat Reflexes feat
The Hydra statistics block states "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity."


CONCLUSION: A hydra may make X Attacks of Opportunity per round where X is the number of heads it possesses BUT it may not make more than a single attack against any creature that provokes a single instance that would generate an opportunity attack.

[FilthyLucre]

As for it not being explicitly called out, the feat section is the explicit calling out. It literally says "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity." Worded another way this says "For attacks of opportunity a hydra's combat reflexes feat allows the hydra to use all of its heads." It doesn't even come close to saying something like "A hydra's combat reflexes feat allows it to perform one attack of opportunity per head" or something along those lines.

The ability to use all of it's heads to make attacks, breaking the rule for multiple attacks, is EXPLICITLY stated in the statistics block. The ability to make multiple attacks off a single trigger of an opportunity attack is not.

You. Are. Wrong.

[Crake]

A Hydra has a Dexterity score of 12, and therefor a Dexterity Modifier of +1
The SRD states: "An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round."
The SRD states: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
The Hydra has the Combat Reflexes feat
The Hydra statistics block states "A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity."


CONCLUSION: A hydra may make X Attacks of Opportunity per round where X is the number of heads it possesses BUT it may not make more than a single attack against any creature that provokes a single instance that would generate an opportunity attack.


The ability to use all of it's heads to make attacks, breaking the rule for multiple attacks, is EXPLICITLY stated in the statistics block. The ability to make multiple attacks off a single trigger of an opportunity attack is not.

You. Are. Wrong.

Firstly: Don't double post, it's bad form. Secondly: No, I'm not wrong, because you cannot deny that my interpretation is a valid one. It's one that you happen to disagree with. What you are saying is that the combat relfexes feat gives a hydra a number of attacks of opportunity equal to it's number of heads. What I am saying is that a hydra can threaten 2 attacks of opportunity, as normal for a 12 dex creature with combat reflexes, but each time it does so, it may attack with all it's heads. Honestly, the way it's written leans more toward my interpretation.

Finally, on a less technical note: While you're new here, being openly confrontational, and demanding that people see your view on a subjective matter as The one true Truth™ is just bad manners.

[FilthyLucre]

Honestly, the way it's written leans more toward my interpretation.

Except that you have nothing but one loose line, your speculation, and nothing else to back it up. You do you, bro.

Side note... your interpretation is not "valid". "A deductive argument is said to be valid if and only if it takes a form that makes it impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false. Otherwise, a deductive argument is said to be invalid.", from the IEP.

[Deophaun]

There was a village, on the fridges of a large kingdom
A) That sounds like it wouldn't be a structurally sound foundation.
B) It's going to make it a PITA when you need to grab some milk.
C) I'm sure the commoners aren't too happy about this wasteful use of all their appliances.

[DrMotives]

{Scrubbed}

[FilthyLucre]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Uhh... quote me? I have no idea who you are, or what you're talking about.

[DrMotives]

Uhh... quote me? I have no idea who you are, or what you're talking about.

I meant Crake said that, not you.

[FilthyLucre]

I meant Crake said that, not you.

{Scrubbed}

[SirNibbles]

The only way of getting more than one swing per opportunity, as far as I know, is via the Improved and Greater Combat Reflexes feats from Dragon Magazine #340.

These feats give a second and third attack, respectively, each using an additional use of your per-round AoOs. This means that if you have 20 Dex, you get 6 AoOs per round. If an opponent provokes, you can use 2 (or 3) from that one provocation.

If that's any sort of framework for how multiple AoOs per opportunity work, it would mean that a hydra would still be limited to 2 AoOs per round (due to its 12 Dex and Combat Reflexes), regardless of how many heads it has. Of course, that makes no sense.

I think the most logical answer is that a Hydra gets 9 AoOs per round, and follows the rest of the rules- the exception is that its Combat Reflexes feat is limited by number of heads rather than Dexterity.

I can understand the opinion that a Hydra gets 9 AoOs per opportunity, having 2 exceptions to AoO rules, but it's more likely that 1 rule is being changed (especially since Combat Reflexes is specifically called out) than 2 rules being changed.

[Crake]

I meant Crake said that, not you.

I did? Now I want a quote? I mean it's pretty clear right in the lich description


A lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life.

I can only find one thread where we both posted that was related to liches and clerics, from back in 2015, and I only posted a single line, mentioning that the +4LA for a lich was quite a hefty cost.

[torrasque666]

I'd think its pretty clear. It states that a hydra "can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round." In addition to its line about combat reflexes allowing it to use all heads for attacks of opportunity, means it can use all heads for any attack of opportunity.

Hydras are full of special rules. Does the fact that the sunder rules state that its made against items not body parts (and in fact, other than cases like the hydra there are NO rules for dismemberment) mean that you can't use the sunder rules as stated in the Hydra entry to sever its heads?

[FilthyLucre]

I'd think its pretty clear. It states that a hydra "can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round." In addition to its line about combat reflexes allowing it to use all heads for attacks of opportunity, means it can use all heads for any attack of opportunity.

Hydras are full of special rules. Does the fact that the sunder rules state that its made against items not body parts (and in fact, other than cases like the hydra there are NO rules for dismemberment) mean that you can't use the sunder rules as stated in the Hydra entry to sever its heads?

The Hydra entry is full of explicit special rules - not implied ones.

[torrasque666]

The Hydra entry is full of explicit special rules - not implied ones.
Exactly. Explicitly, the Hydra can use all heads on attacks of opportunities.

[FilthyLucre]

Exactly. Explicitly, the Hydra can use all heads on attacks of opportunities.

Which it can do - just not all on a single provocation.

[TIPOT]

The attack line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#attack) for a creature is

"In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well."

So by default a Hydra would get all it's bites on a AOO? Maybe? Who knows really, it's not really clear?

[FilthyLucre]

The attack line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm#attack) for a creature is

"In most cases, this is also the attack the creature uses when making an attack of opportunity as well."

That means that creatures typically use their primary attack/attack when making AoOs. I.e.: bite, slam, claw, etc.

[johnbragg]

I'd think its pretty clear.

The evidence of this thread that it is, in fact, not clear.

My judgement is that RAI is that the hydra's standard attack is to attack with all X heads, and therefore the attack of opportunity would be with all X heads. But that's an inference, based on:
1. The hydra attacks with all its heads even after moving or charging (which points to all-heads-attack is the hydra's standard action)
2. If the usual "standard action/attack of opportunity = 1 melee attack" was in force, there would be no reason to include "Feats: a hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity." if that sentence really means "any of its attacks for AoOs"

But I'm not super invested here, because I feel that the RAW is not clear and the RAI is bad. In fact, I say that each head gets its own initiative count, and it's own attacks of opportunity.

[johnbragg]

That means that creatures typically use their primary attack/attack when making AoOs. I.e.: bite, slam, claw, etc.

Or in the hydra's case, X bites where X = number of heads.

[Celestia]

In fact, I say that each head gets its own initiative count, and it's own attacks of opportunity.
That could be interesting, but how would you handle its move action?

[johnbragg]

That could be interesting, but how would you handle its move action?

One approach would be to attach it to one of the heads.

Another would be to bump the CR up a notch or two and give it the ability to move on each head's initiative and swap out the lame feats it has (Iron Will, Toughness, Combat Reflexes) for the Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack line. Put in some kind of clause preventing it from moving in a straight line for all X moves, but let it Spring Attack in a 20 foot radius plus 10' of reach.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hydras are an exception to making attacks, and this includes AoOs.

They get to bite with all of their heads on a standard-action attack.
They get to bite with all of their heads when they charge, which normally only allows a single attack.
They get to bite with all of their heads when making an attack of opportunity, which normally only allows a single attack.

Thus this is the interpretation that makes the most sense when taken within the context of the rest of the Hydra's monster entry, and is thus the correct one. All other interpretations are nonsensical and have zero RAW support. End of discussion.

[Jon_Dahl]

A) That sounds like it wouldn't be a structurally sound foundation.
B) It's going to make it a PITA when you need to grab some milk.
C) I'm sure the commoners aren't too happy about this wasteful use of all their appliances.

Hahaha, would you believe that I was hungry when I wrote that? 😂

[Fiery Diamond]

I remember being really confused as to whether they got (head) number of AoOs or (head) attacks per AoO when I was first trying to run a hydra in combat. The wording is unclear enough that it could go either way, though I lean toward the latter being the more natural-language reading of it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hahaha, would you believe that I was hungry when I wrote that? 😂

In fact, I would. Freudian slips can bite you when you least expect...

I may also be slightly peckish.

[Thurbane]

The way it's written can lead to at least 3 different interpretations, and you really have no authority to definitively state which one is correct.

Agreed.

It's definitely up to a DM to interpret what he believes.

[Bronk]

Hydras are an exception to making attacks, and this includes AoOs.

They get to bite with all of their heads on a standard-action attack.
They get to bite with all of their heads when they charge, which normally only allows a single attack.

They get to bite with all their heads after they move or charge. That's all the entry says. The hydra entry doesn't actually say anything about making standard action attacks.



They get to bite with all of their heads when making an attack of opportunity, which normally only allows a single attack.

This isn't stated anywhere in the hydra monster entry, especially because the hydra would not have moved first. It just says all the heads can be used for the attacks. You know, it doesn't even really say that you can use more than two attacks, just that it doesn't matter which two of the heads to use... it can be any of them.



Thus this is the interpretation that makes the most sense when taken within the context of the rest of the Hydra's monster entry, and is thus the correct one. All other interpretations are nonsensical and have zero RAW support. End of discussion.

I don't think this is the interpretation that makes the most sense. The hydra has a lot of weird extra rules, it doesn't need additional ones added to make it dangerous or interesting.

[Jon_Dahl]

If you want RAI, the truth is anything you want.

If you want RAW, read Crake's posts.

Simple.