TWFing Arcadian Avenger Crusader?

[danielxcutter]

Arcadian Avengers appear in MMV, and it states that they have Crusader as their Favored Class. They are also built towards TWF, which isn't quite a common approach for that class.

What maneuvers and stances would help? Martial Spirit seems like it might work, and WRT is a no-brainer, but what else?

This is a thought exercise, not for a game anytime soon... But for the purposes of this thread, the AA will be the leader of a group of AA Crusaders and Justice Archon paladins.

Build:

HD 8: TWF, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Initiative
Crusader 1: ITWF
Crusader 2
Crusader 3
Crusader 4: GTWF
Crusader 5
Crusader 6
Crusader 7: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting

This results in a CR 13 monster, by the way.

[danielxcutter]

Uuuuum... Anyone?

[Eldariel]

Sadly there's just very little and it's something I always wondered as well. White Raven charges and counters and Devoted Spirit counters in general are fine, and Stone Dragon lockpick is always good. But mostly I'd expect them to be full attacking and boosting/countering most of the time, using strikes when moving and particularly charging.

[Darrin]

If you use Agile Shield Fighter to TWF with a one-handed weapon and a heavy shield, then it's a decent strategy, as Agile Shield Fighter *replaces* the usual TWF penalties with -2 primary/-2 offhand. If you interpret this to mean that the -5 and -10 penalties from Improved and Greater TWF are also replaced, then you've got a leg up on standard TWF. (Why do Arcadian Avengers not get Oversized TWF? Feh.)

The problem with Crusader is the disciplines they have to choose from are pretty heavy on standard-action strikes. Unless you're doing something with action-economy shenanigans, this means you can't use a strike and TWF in the same round. Hmm. If we just start adding Crusader levels, let's see if there are enough boosts/counters.

Arcadian Avenger 8 HD Outsider, LA +2
Crusader 1 [IL 5]: Shield Block, Defensive Rebuke, Lion's Roar, White Raven Tactics, Revitalizing Strike, Leading the Charge (Stance)
Crusader 2 [IL 6]: Thicket of Blades (Stance)
Crusader 3 [IL 7]: Covering Strike
Crusader 4 [IL 8]: Swap Defensive Rebuke for Boulder Roll
Crusader 5 [IL 9]: Shield Counter
Crusader 6 [IL 10]: Swap Boulder Roll for Radiant Charge
Crusader 7 [IL 11]: Order Forged from Chaos (move action)
Crusader 8 [IL 12]: Swap Radiant Charge for Rallying Strike
Crusader 9 [IL 13]: Shield Counter
Crusader 10 [IL 14]: Swap Revitalizing Strike for Clarion Call

That should be plenty of counters/boosts.

[danielxcutter]

If you use Agile Shield Fighter to TWF with a one-handed weapon and a heavy shield, then it's a decent strategy, as Agile Shield Fighter *replaces* the usual TWF penalties with -2 primary/-2 offhand. If you interpret this to mean that the -5 and -10 penalties from Improved and Greater TWF are also replaced, then you've got a leg up on standard TWF. (Why do Arcadian Avengers not get Oversized TWF? Feh.)

The problem with Crusader is the disciplines they have to choose from are pretty heavy on standard-action strikes. Unless you're doing something with action-economy shenanigans, this means you can't use a strike and TWF in the same round. Hmm. If we just start adding Crusader levels, let's see if there are enough boosts/counters.

Arcadian Avenger 8 HD Outsider, LA +2
Crusader 1 [IL 5]: Shield Block, Defensive Rebuke, Lion's Roar, White Raven Tactics, Revitalizing Strike, Leading the Charge (Stance)
Crusader 2 [IL 6]: Thicket of Blades (Stance)
Crusader 3 [IL 7]: Covering Strike
Crusader 4 [IL 8]: Swap Defensive Rebuke for Boulder Roll
Crusader 5 [IL 9]: Shield Counter
Crusader 6 [IL 10]: Swap Boulder Roll for Radiant Charge
Crusader 7 [IL 11]: Order Forged from Chaos (move action)
Crusader 8 [IL 12]: Swap Radiant Charge for Rallying Strike
Crusader 9 [IL 13]: Shield Counter
Crusader 10 [IL 14]: Swap Revitalizing Strike for Clarion Call

That should be plenty of counters/boosts.

Urm... So, using two longswords is too bad to consider? I kinda want to do that, since base Arcadian Avengers do that... Also, then Martial Spirit doesn't help much? I thought it was 2 points of damage healed to the user and nearby allies per hit, which would synergize with TWF...

Also, the idea is for a monster, so CR should be used instead of ECL.

[Eldariel]

Urm... So, using two longswords is too bad to consider? I kinda want to do that, since base Arcadian Avengers do that... Also, then Martial Spirit doesn't help much? I thought it was 2 points of damage healed to the user and nearby allies per hit, which would synergize with TWF...

Also, the idea is for a monster, so CR should be used instead of ECL.

Two Longswords is okay with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting but there's little meaningful advantage over fighting with two smaller weapons; going up from d6 to d8 on off-hand for a feat just isn't that amazing. If you had something weapon-specific, that'd be different but there's little meaningful advantage for a Crusader. About the best is being able to PA with both but that's down to Furious Counterstrike alone more or less - you need very high AB to TWF PA.

[Darrin]

Urm... So, using two longswords is too bad to consider? I kinda want to do that, since base Arcadian Avengers do that...

As Eldariel says, it's not quite so terrible if you switch Two-Weapon Defense for Oversized TWF. It helps to have some bonus damage you can add on top of that, but that's not going to come from Crusader strikes. Furious Counterstrike adds a little, but kinda piddly compared to Power Attack (PA). Oversized TWF lets you PA on both your primary and offhand weapon, but you kinda also need IBR and Shock Trooper to avoid horking your attack bonus. Agile Shield Fighter also allows you to PA on both your primary (longsword) and offhand (heavy shield), but requires at least one additional feat.



Also, then Martial Spirit doesn't help much? I thought it was 2 points of damage healed to the user and nearby allies per hit, which would synergize with TWF...


Yes, Martial Spirit would be a better stance than Leading the Charge, provided you don't deliberately shank your attack bonus to the point that you can't hit anything reliably.



Also, the idea is for a monster, so CR should be used instead of ECL.

As you prefer. Outside of encounter design, I haven't found CR to be a reliable measure of anything, and within encounter design, it's *really* haphazard and wonky...

[danielxcutter]

Two Longswords is okay with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting but there's little meaningful advantage over fighting with two smaller weapons; going up from d6 to d8 on off-hand for a feat just isn't that amazing. If you had something weapon-specific, that'd be different but there's little meaningful advantage for a Crusader. About the best is being able to PA with both but that's down to Furious Counterstrike alone more or less - you need very high AB to TWF PA.


As Eldariel says, it's not quite so terrible if you switch Two-Weapon Defense for Oversized TWF. It helps to have some bonus damage you can add on top of that, but that's not going to come from Crusader strikes. Furious Counterstrike adds a little, but kinda piddly compared to Power Attack (PA). Oversized TWF lets you PA on both your primary and offhand weapon, but you kinda also need IBR and Shock Trooper to avoid horking your attack bonus. Agile Shield Fighter also allows you to PA on both your primary (longsword) and offhand (heavy shield), but requires at least one additional feat.

Ah, I understand. IBR? :smallconfused:



Yes, Martial Spirit would be a better stance than Leading the Charge, provided you don't deliberately shank your attack bonus to the point that you can't hit anything reliably.

Good to see I got something right. Arcadian Avengers do have +6 Str, and two more HD than their CR... Attack bonus should probably be okayish at least.

As I mentioned in the OP, this thought exercise build was part of a group of Arcadian Avenger Crusaders and Justice Archon Paladins... So yeah, good luck killing them. Assuming that killing them is the answer in the first place of course.



As you prefer. Outside of encounter design, I haven't found CR to be a reliable measure of anything, and within encounter design, it's *really* haphazard and wonky...

Fair, but it's not quite that easy to ad-hoc it every time either...

[Goaty14]

Fair, but it's not quite that easy to ad-hoc it every time either...

Vorpal Tribble's CR calculator:

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if its got a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR

1: 8 HD, 60/5 = 12
2: AC 19 = +2 (Rounding up)
3: Aligned Strike, Blade Rend, Magic Strike, Wrath = +4
4: Elude Chance = +1
5: 0, no bonus feats
6: Total = 19, CR = 6.33...

That's without class levels, but I dunno what exact amount you wanna give it...

[ExLibrisMortis]

IBR? :smallconfused:
Improved Bull Rush, prerequisite for Shock Trooper.

If you want a group of self-healing Martial Spirit users, add incarnate 4/crusader 4, instead of straight crusader. Shape Therapeutic Mantle, Planar Ward, Crystal Helm (bound to crown), maybe Astral Vambraces (bound to hands) (can't have both binds). With an essentia capacity of 4, Martial Spirit heals for 10 or 11 per hit. Planar ward blocks mind control (as protection from evil), Crystal Helm (bound) makes your attacks [force] (bypass incorporealness, arguably also bypass all DR, but it's unclear what it means exactly), Astral Vambraces grants DR 2/magic; bound, it grants an astral construct menu A option (can get you one of Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, +10' land speed, or the ability to trip with AC slam--reasonably houseruled to apply to one type of (natural) weapon).

[Eldariel]

Ah, I understand. IBR? :smallconfused:

Improved Bull Rush, prereq for Shock Trooper.


Good to see I got something right. Arcadian Avengers do have +6 Str, and two more HD than their CR... Attack bonus should probably be okayish at least.

As I mentioned in the OP, this thought exercise build was part of a group of Arcadian Avenger Crusaders and Justice Archon Paladins... So yeah, good luck killing them. Assuming that killing them is the answer in the first place of course.

Well, Arcadian Avenger Crusader is quite doable as Crusader is just a solid chassis anyways even if they can't make the most of the strikes. For a counter/boost-based character, Crusader recovery is just the best since you need those swift actions for your maneuvers. That said, they do need some way to move and full attack if their TWF is to make sense particularly as they already qualify for ITWF and soon for GTWF. Sadly their resources are really drawn thin. As Crusaders they kinda require Extra Granted Maneuver and as two-weapon fighters they need to invest two feats into ITWF and OTWF already. And for OTWF to make sense they need to invest in Power Attack as well. And if they're to be single-classed Crusaders, getting some way to move and full attack would also entail feats. Barbarian 1 or (Cloistered) Cleric 1 would, again, obviously be a tremendous addition (Barb is kinda better though since Travel Devotion takes up that all-important swift action).

The Elude Chance ability would be better on someone with bigger single actions such as a two-hander or particularly a (mounted or otherwise) charger. It has pretty much zero synergy with TWF, though being able to proof your saves is of course nice (now if only it had Evasion or Mettle... Alas). Sadly the other ways to get more out of TWF such as Stormguard Warrior, Shadow Blade, Knowledge Devotion, or precision damage. Well, Knowledge Devotion is actually reasonable with their hefty load of skill points. But it would inevitably be somewhat specialised; you can get The Planes and Religion naturally and Local/Arcane/Dungeoneering/Nature, you'd get one out of the pack (probably Local in all honesty since **** humanoids, though Arcane would also make sense). One rank in the others.

Giving it some really strikes that make a huge difference in a single hit like Greater Divine Surge may be interesting...though Arcade 8/Crusader 8 only hits IL12 so sadly 8th (and 7th) level maneuvers are out. White Raven Hammer is a nice strike though. Also, it occurs me, if they fight in groups, Order Forged from Chaos and White Raven Tactics can be really strong and circumvent the issue of needing movement before full attack extremely well.

Press the Advantage-stance also seems like a gimme (though getting the stance progression to work out so that you could pick up a level 5 stance is kinda hard without Crusader 8), which actually combined with 10' steps from DC 40 Tumble could do for the "getting full attacks"-part (20' is not the worst for free movement). Hitting DC 40 Tumble as a 15 HD creature is kinda tricky; need to have it in class (which they don't by default but they can trade Ride as per Skilled City-Dweller (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) and get about +11 on the skill for reasonable chance and +21 for autosuccess. Jump is +2 by default so we have 18 ranks and +2 Jump and Elite Array Avengers with their +4 Dex can afford something like 19-20 Dex with little effort and furthermore use items. Let's say we have +5 Dex. This gives us +24, far cry from the +39 you'd ideally want but at least something. The rest would have to come from some other source; probably items. A +5 competence item (they exist but I can't remember off-hand - Psychoactive Skin of Nimbleness is +10 but it's also 15k so probably not kosher en masse, though it would virtually solve this matter) and a Masterwork Tool puts them at +31 which is already pretty comfortable without breaking their treasure tables (we're talking CR13 up from CR6). This allows them to take a 10' step 60% of the time (a roll of 9 or higher) with each of their 5' steps. Psychoactive Skin would put them at +36, where you only need like +6 Dex from somewhere to hit the +39. This would also allow the Tumble skill tricks like Back on Your Feet and Twisting Charge (Balance is also a class skill for both)

Their TWF could indeed be augmented by e.g. Lion's Roar and other teamwork benefits. However, the OTWF benefits from essentially just Power Attack feel a tad slim; perhaps maneuvers like Leading the Attack could again be leveraged while fighting en masse. Aside from class dips or feats, it's hard to even get full Str damage on the off-hand attack (and it's really not worth putting one of your rare feats into). Of course, if your damage is mostly from other sources, that hardly matters.


But yeah, something like:
1. TWF
3. OTWF
6. ITWF
9. EGM
12. GTWF
15. Knowledge Devotion (take on 1, actually)/Power Attack/etc.

OTWF is kinda bad; something like Law Devotion or Knowledge Devotion is better in all likelihood.

EDIT: One thought occurred to me. OTWF is just +1 damage as such but give him Strongarm Bracers and have him wield Large Longswords instead. This goes from 1d8 to 2d6 instead of 1d6 to 1d8 so it's an effective +2.5 point damage increase, which is not terrible. Giant's Stance would work too otherwise, but there are more important 5th+ stances and it stops working if you move for than 5' in a round. So yeah, just get the 8k Strongarm Bracers.

EDIT#2: Oh yeah, and Two-Weapon Rend isn't a bad feat to go with their inherent rend.