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Peregrine
2007-09-01, 11:21 AM
As part of looking into the value of different metamagic feats (how good they are, and at which levels they're particularly useful), I'm trying to compile a list of good wizard spells to use with each metamagic feat. My bias in this list is towards Batman wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19085). Unfortunately I have little experience of actually playing in that manner, so even with tips from TLN's respected thread, my list is coming up a bit patchy. Therefore, any and all input is welcome. (As I'm hoping to make this a generally useful reference, feats and spells from all sources are accepted.)

The list is organised by alphabetical order of feat name, and then by the spell slot level needed to cast the spell with the relevant metamagic applied.

Chain Spell (+3): Offensively, best for non-damaging, no-save spells, due to the feat's limitations. Defensively, it makes for easy buffing of the group. More possibilities open up when used with Reach Spell (q.v.)

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Ray of Enfeeblement (suggested by Solo): Rocks the house. Perfect example of a no-save, non-damaging offensive spell.
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Dispel Magic: That's right, it's a caster level check, not a save (and certainly not damage), hence arcing to multiple targets doesn't reduce its effectiveness in the least. End buffs, suppress magic items... Kudos to Logic Ninja for this one.
Greater Magic Weapon (suggested by Gralamin et al): Very nice indeed. Enhance everyone's weapons at once, and I mean everyone's: by the time you can cast it, you're boosting up to 11 weapons to +2, and to +3 one level later. And that's without any sort of caster level increase, which you really ought to get.
Shatter (suggested by martyboy74): The Will save for attended objects makes this a bit of a pain, but still.

Enervation (suggested by Solo): Again, no save, non-damaging, rocks hard.
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Empower Spell (+2): This adds 1 to the mean roll of a d4, 1.5 to a d6, 2 to a d8, 2.5 to a d10, and 3 to a d12. Compare the increases for Maximize Spell (with a 50% higher spell level increase), and you'll see that Empower is really only worth it for small dice. (It's well matched for a d4, where +1 spell level counts for +0.5 to the mean roll. It sucks for d12s, if you can find a spell that rolls 'em.)

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Ray of Enfeeblement (suggested by lord_khaine): A d6, so not optimal, but good damage for lower levels. Actually better than Split Ray, because you get to have multiple rays anyway.

Scorching Ray (suggested by Solo):
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Enervation (suggested by Solo): A d4, and therefore perfect for this feat. Remember, kids, negative levels kill, and so more negative levels kill better.
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Disintegrate (suggested by Solo): A d6, but that's not the biggest problem here. The biggest problem is that using Split Ray (for the same level increase) doubles your damage instead.

Power Word: Blind (suggested by Draz74): Not worth it, in my opinion. You can Extend it perfectly normally, for a smaller level increase and longer duration.
Enlarge Spell (+1): Not much good really. For prepared spells, it's just too situational, says I. Fax recommends sniping with fireballs at a quarter-mile range (a 4th-level slot).

Extend Spell (+1): Most short-duration spells are pointless to extend, because fights are over too soon. Either your buffs will wear off, or your enemies will be dead anyway. Of the two, the buffs are more likely to be usefully extended, if you suspect you're going to be in a protracted fight. Hours-duration buffs, on the other hand, are gold.


Detect Magic: Just because I keep running into situations where we're searching for something and it takes a while to get within 60ft.

Mage Armor
Protection From Evil
Shield

Darkvision
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Power Word: Blind (based on a suggestion by Draz74): Better than Empowering it.

Irresistible Dance (suggested by Draz74): In 1d4+1 rounds, your enemy might still be alive. In 2d4+2 rounds, that chance is much slimmer.
Heighten Spell (variable): Best for spells that allow saves, where there's no higher-level spell that does the same job and then some. A bit situational to prepare well, though. Draz74 rightly suggests it's more useful for spontaneous casters.

Maximize Spell (+3): This adds 1.5 to the mean roll on a d4, 2.5 to a d6, 3.5 to a d8, 4.5 to a d10, and 5.5 to a d12. Compare the increases for Empower Spell (with 2/3rds of the spell level increase), and you'll see that Maximize is fair for small dice, and rocks for large dice.

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Persistent Spell (+6): A bit cheesy for my tastes, but if it's your thing, give me some good examples of persistable spells.

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Quicken Spell (+4): All the best one-two spell combos go much better with this feat.

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True Strike: When you absolutely have to make the next shot, you usually don't have a spare round to mess about in.

Invisibility (suggested by lord_khaine): When it all goes to pot, and you need every action to escape or to recover from a dispel, being invisible helps mightily.
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Reach Spell (+2): Basically, any touch spell you want to use from safety is good with this. Also, using Dex on your ranged touch attack is typically better for wizards than using Str on a melee touched attack.

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Shivering Touch (suggested by Draz74): You cheese-monkey, you.
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Metamagic rod only: Irresistible Dance (suggested by Solo).
Where this feat is really interesting is when you pair it with Chain Spell, to put touch spells onto multiple targets. But this is a +5 level adjustment; I suspect (and part of the purpose of this list is to show) that by the time you can cast good combos with these feats, you could have gotten a level of Archmage (normally min. character level 14th) and taken Arcane Reach, rendering this feat obsolete. Nonetheless, here are the Chain/Reach combos.

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Protection From Evil: Even at high levels, this spell still gives immunity to mind control. And every +2 counts. (It's more expensive than Magic Circle, but you don't all have to huddle in a nice blast-sized area.)
One level after you get to cast spells of this level, you could take your first level of archmage and get Arcane Reach. All these combos would then be 2 levels lower.
Bull's Strength (and the other +4 attribute spells): Listed here despite being almost pointless; the Mass versions of these spells are a level lower, Chain/Reach having only the advantage that it can affect targets across a 60ft. radius (and doesn't require you to scribe a new spell). And Mass version and Chain/Reach alike are usually outclassed by enhancement items by the time you can cast them.

Magic Vestment (suggested by Draz74): A cleric spell only, but worth mentioning. Get everyone's armour (or clothes), and their shields too.
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Repeat Spell (+3):

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Sculpt Spell (+1): If it can hurt or hinder your allies, they'll thank you for sculpting. The four-cubes option is the most useful. Also, it can make the affected area much larger, as Draz74 points out.

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Grease (suggested by Solo): Turns a 10ft. square into four 10ft. cubes. Or another shape.
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Fear (suggested by Draz74)
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Metamagic rod only: Wail of the Banshee (suggested by Solo).

Silent Spell (+1): This is useful for casters who specialise in (a) subterfuge, (b) paranoia or (c) mischief. Or all three. Subterfuge, because removing a spell component makes casting it harder to detect. Paranoia, because removing a spell component means being able to cast the spell when that component is denied. Mischief, see subterfuge, but then apply to fun situations instead of dangerous ones. A number of handy spells have only verbal components; in particular, teleportation spells, which are ideal for escape. Also, Draz74 recommends this feat for teaming up with a cleric buddy who casts silence.

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Charm Person (suggested by Kaelaroth): "You don't need to see his identification." *waves hand*
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Dispel Magic (suggested by Draz74): For breaking magical silences. A bit situational, perhaps, but good if you know it's going to come up.
Suggestion (suggested by Draz74): As Charm Person, only much more so. Very Jedi.

Dimension Door (suggested by Draz74): Like I said, escape.

Teleport (suggested by Draz74 et al): Ditto.
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Power Word: Blind: If your DM lets you silence power words.

Power Word: Stun (suggested by Draz74): Ditto.

Split Ray (+2): For rays, obviously. It's a cheaper Twin Spell in these cases. Particularly good when a ray's effects stack with itself, because you can target a single target with both rays. Looks a little weak compared to Chain Spell, particularly because rays typically don't allow saves. (On the other hand, a strict reading of Chain Spell wouldn't let you strike one target twice.)

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Ray of Enfeeblement (suggested by Solo): Well, it lets you hit two targets (it doesn't stack with itself). But see Chain Spell for one spell level higher, you can hit 7 or more targets.
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Enervation (suggested by Solo): Do the negative levels stack? I think they do. So this may hold its own against Chain Spell.
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Disintegrate (suggested by Solo): Deals damage and offers a save, therefore much, much better Split than Chained. And stacking disintegrates is a fantastic way to kill things.
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Still Spell (+1): Much the same as Silent Spell. I feel Silent Spell has more utility, because more spells have verbal components only. But on the other hand, it seems to me that being bound, grappled, or otherwise limited in your somatic components is more likely than being silenced or gagged. Maybe.

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Animate Rope (suggested by Draz74): Order your bindings to unknot.
Charm Person (suggested by Kaelaroth): Turns grapples into hugs.
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Telekinesis (suggested by Kaelaroth): This would go under 'mischief', I think.
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Twin Spell (+4):

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Widen Spell (+3): A hefty level increase, but it increases the killzone or area of control hugely: squares quadruple in size, circular areas benefit even more. But Sculpt Spell can do the same for smaller area spells.

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Grease (suggested by Curmudgeon): It's a square, so you grease up four times the area. Unfortunately, it's a 10ft. square, and Sculpting would let you play with four 10ft. cubes.
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Stinking Cloud (suggested by Draz74)

Solid Fog (suggested by Draz74)

Cloudkill (suggested by Draz74)
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Metamagic rod only: Forcecage (suggested by Draz74).

More as I think of them, or as you suggest them. :smallsmile:

PlatinumJester
2007-09-01, 11:22 AM
Any reflex save spell that covers a large area is good to sculpt.

Bassetking
2007-09-01, 11:52 AM
Extend and Persist aren't really "Wizard" Metamagics.

These metamagics really come into their own and shine ever more brilliantly when utilized by Clerics and Druids, and are, in essence, one of the cornerstones of the CoDZilla's Power structure.

Kaelaroth
2007-09-01, 12:42 PM
Silent and/or Still Charm Person

No one knows you were doing it to them! :smallsmile:

Solo
2007-09-01, 03:30 PM
Ray of Enfeeblement (empowered, split, chained, whatever)

Enervation (Same)

Disintegrate (Empowered, split)

Irrisistable Dance (Reached)

Wail of the Banshee (Sculped, Mastery of Shaping to exclude allies)


The list goes on and on....

Kaelaroth
2007-09-01, 03:33 PM
Still Telekinesis would be funny.

PC Sorcerer: I mean, it's not like I'm telekinetic or anything! (as walls get smashed in).

Fax Celestis
2007-09-01, 03:35 PM
Enlarge Spell on Fireball (or any spell with Long range) means you measure range in quarter-miles. Couple with Spellwarp Sniper for serious spell snipage.

Curmudgeon
2007-09-02, 11:37 AM
Grease is an excellent choice for Widen Spell. You'll immediately slick up a 20' x 20' area (instead of 10' x 10'). This is a great battlefield control option, and the adjusted spell level is low enough that you can make it into a wand.

lord_khaine
2007-09-02, 12:03 PM
empowered scorching rays can do a awfull lot of damage at lower lvs.
quickend invisibility is a great emergency defence for when you get either surprised or dispelled.

martyboy74
2007-09-02, 12:26 PM
Chain Shatter is great if you use it to follow up a Chain Dispel Magic. Unfortunately, it does break all those nice magic items.

Gralamin
2007-09-02, 12:38 PM
The level 6 spell slot is worth it for Chain Greater Magic Weapon. All your allies who have a +1 <Insert various enchantments here> weapon, becomes a +5 <insert Various enchantments here> weapon.

Curmudgeon
2007-09-02, 12:40 PM
Chain Shatter is great if you use it to follow up a Chain Dispel Magic. Unfortunately, it does break all those nice magic items. Depends entirely on your DM's choice of definition for the term "solid". If they like to give this level 2 spell unreasonable power they'll use the chemical definiton "neither liquid nor gas". Of course, chemistry didn't exist in medieval settings, so this isn't reasonable at all; the era of alchemy precedes much understanding of phase transformations. The much more reasonable definition of "solid" for Shatter is "rigid, not flexible".

With the reasonable definition Shatter won't do anything to temporarily de-magicked clothing, Bags of Holding, leather goods, and the like.

Plus, of course, all these objects need to fail both the Dispel Magic CL check and Shatter's Will save for attended objects.

martyboy74
2007-09-02, 12:51 PM
Depends entirely on your DM's choice of definition for the term "solid". If they like to give this level 2 spell unreasonable power they'll use the chemical definiton "neither liquid nor gas". Of course, chemistry didn't exist in medieval settings, so this isn't reasonable at all; the era of alchemy precedes much understanding of phase transformations. The much more reasonable definition of "solid" for Shatter is "rigid, not flexible".

With the reasonable definition Shatter won't do anything to temporarily de-magicked clothing, Bags of Holding, leather goods, and the like.

Plus, of course, all these objects need to fail both saves, and Chain Spell reduces Shatter's DC by 4.

You use it on things like armor and swords. This is really more useful when combating creatures that use gear. Also, the fortitude save only applies when using it to attack crystalline creatures.

Draz74
2007-09-02, 02:40 PM
As someone else said, Chain Greater Magic Weapon is awesome, and one of the best uses of Chain Spell. Chain/Reach Magic Vestment, by parallel, is also decent.

Besides hours/level buffs, Extend is great on very powerful effects that are supposed to only last for a very short duration. Irresistible Dance, for example. I seem to vaguely remember a Spell Compendium spell that was a one-round no-save Stun; Extending it would be great. A similar principle applies to Empowering effects that have variable durations, such as Power Word Blind.

Heighten Spell is great for spontaneous casters, but indeed not so important for Wizards.

Quicken: Similar to True Strike are some other low-level buffs, like Shield of Faith and Divine Favor. Dunno if Wizards get any more spells like that.

Reach Spell can be useful even without a combination with Chain. Shivering Touch and Irresistible Dance are the two evil, broken examples that spring to mind. (OK, Irresistible Dance isn't really very broken ... but only because it's 8th level.)

Sculpt Spell: Anything that could hurt your allies and has a cone or line shape. Fear comes to mind. Also things that normally have a very small area, such as Grease, just because Sculpting them can make them much bigger.

Silent and Still are most interesting when they are used on spells that have no other component, especially if they're spells you don't want to be seen casting. Silent Dimension Door or Silent Power Word Stun, that kind of thing. (Going into the Cleric realm, Silent Holy Word is kind of hilarious.) Silent Suggestion, your enemy hopefully won't know you're messing with their mind.

These feats are also best used on spells that help you escape from situations where you can't use verbal or somatic components. Silent Teleport ... Still Animate Rope ... Silent Dispel Magic (to dispel a Silence effect) ... that kind of thing. Silent Still Freedom of Movement (again, non-Wizard).

Of course, any Silent spell is good if your party Cleric plans to drop Silence at the beginning of a lot of your battles. Great combo if your campaign includes a lot of spellcasting baddies.

Widen Spell is best on effects that your opponents will try to get out of, once they are in them. Not only Grease, but Stinking Cloud or Solid Fog too. Or Cloudkill, since it has that annoying effect where it moves around instead of staying on the targets you want it to stay on. At least if the Cloud is huge, it will Kill a bit longer. Widen is also good on spells with a small area, such as Forcecage (if you want to trap multiple foes or a bigger-than-Large foe).

Curmudgeon
2007-09-02, 03:42 PM
You use it on things like armor and swords. This is really more useful when combating creatures that use gear. Also, the fortitude save only applies when using it to attack crystalline creatures. Yes, but a Will save applies when you attack attended objects. And leather armor is flexible, too.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-09-02, 05:07 PM
use silent spell on any teleport spell, lets you get out with even if your bound and gagged.

Peregrine
2007-09-05, 02:19 PM
Thanks, all! I've updated with most of the suggestions from here. I even included a few that are too high-level to cast pre-epic without metamagic rods. :smallsmile:

Eldritch_Ent
2007-09-05, 02:23 PM
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this yet, but Shivering Touch is relatively broken- Maximize it and you have a 6th level spell that deals 18 dex damage with no save. one shot dragons with relative ease!

yango
2007-09-05, 02:42 PM
I'd put persistent Wraithstrike at the top of the list for Persistent cheesiness.

grinner666
2007-09-06, 06:20 PM
My experience has been that some of the very best candidates for Widen Spell are the various battlefield control spells ... everything from Grease, Obscuring Mist and Web to the various Wall spells ... anything that slows or stops an opponent ... becomes dramatically more useful when its area of effect increases. Especially if the party has archers. :smallbiggrin:

The same is true for Druids ... I love Widened Entangle, Spike Growth and Spike Stones spells. When you know a bunch of melee-type enemies are headed your way, one of those spells can take 'em out before they get anywhere near you. :smallwink: