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Benejeseret
2007-09-01, 11:34 AM
So, a pre-req for Far Shot is Point Blank Shot. I would like to think that this irregularity is actually a purposeful mechanic.

Point Blank gives +1 hit and damage within 30'

Far shot increases range increments by 1.5. Does this affect the Point Blank range incriment so that:

Far Shot-Point Blank = +1 to hit and damage within 45'

??

Thanks
Bene

Corolinth
2007-09-01, 11:39 AM
The reason for the pre req is because most of your shooting stuff in a game environment occurs at close range. It is practically impossible for a trained archer and sniper to not have a lot of practice at hitting things that are right in front of him. That's just the nature of the beast.

This translates directly to real life ranged weapons. You practice at 50ft before you practice at 100ft.

StickMan
2007-09-01, 11:54 AM
Far Shot-Point Blank = +1 to hit and damage within 45'


I wish it might actually be worth taking Far Shot if that is how it worked out. I like playing archers and just finished a campaign in which I played an archer from level 3 to level 7, the whole time I played I did not take Far Shot and it did not hurt me in the least. DND tends to have fights in cramped areas and you don't see very many battle fields that have more that 120 feet with out far shot you can hit every thing on the map just fine normally.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-01, 11:54 AM
So, a pre-req for Far Shot is Point Blank Shot. I would like to think that this irregularity is actually a purposeful mechanic.

Point Blank gives +1 hit and damage within 30'

Far shot increases range increments by 1.5. Does this affect the Point Blank range incriment so that:

Far Shot-Point Blank = +1 to hit and damage within 45'

??

Thanks
Bene
No, the range increment for a bow is like 100' some are different depending on the specific weapon. The 30' point blank range is not a range increment.

Attilargh
2007-09-01, 12:02 PM
I wish it might actually be worth taking Far Shot if that is how it worked out.
Far Shot work for all ranged weapons, including thrown ones. As they generally have pathetic range increments, it actually might be a good feat to take.

Benejeseret
2007-09-01, 12:56 PM
So basically no then.

I take it the same is true for feats that add range (ranged weapon mastery) +20'?

If you had far shot and ranged weapon mastery is the final range

(Base*1.5)+20

or

(Base+20)*1.5


Finally, is there an official errata or FAQ that answers the first (far shot - point blank) question.

Because, the 30' of point blank is an increment of range....

Combat Sniper modifies the sneak attack range from 30' to 60' and I was hoping far shot would work on it all......as they are all range increments used with ranged weapons.

Draz74
2007-09-01, 03:17 PM
So basically no then.

Correct, but I think it's a very reasonable house rule.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-01, 05:26 PM
Far Shot work for all ranged weapons, including thrown ones. As they generally have pathetic range increments, it actually might be a good feat to take.
It's even better. For thrown weapons, Far Shot doubles the range increment as opposed to increasing it by 50%. It's pretty much a requirement for a throwing build.


So basically no then.

I take it the same is true for feats that add range (ranged weapon mastery) +20'?

If you had far shot and ranged weapon mastery is the final range

(Base*1.5)+20

or

(Base+20)*1.5
Hm. Not sure about that one.


Because, the 30' of point blank is an increment of range....
30 ft. is a specific range, but it is not a specific weapon range increment. It's a completely different concept.

And it's not really an increment of any kind anyways, as "increment" refers to a fixed value that can be added to another value many times over. This 30 ft. is applied exactly once. It does not add over and over. </dictionary police>

MrNexx
2007-09-01, 07:29 PM
FWIW, I've changed Point Blank Shot, and, by extension, made Far Shot more useful. Point Blank Shot (and Sneak Attack, etc) is effective within half of the first range increment of a given weapon. Of course, if you increase your range increment with Far Shot, then you increase the range at which PBS (etc.) is effective.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-01, 07:36 PM
FWIW, I've changed Point Blank Shot, and, by extension, made Far Shot more useful. Point Blank Shot (and Sneak Attack, etc) is effective within half of the first range increment of a given weapon. Of course, if you increase your range increment with Far Shot, then you increase the range at which PBS (etc.) is effective.
Sounds cool. Also works well with thrown weapons when it comes to verisimilitude. Eliminates the "Accurate enough to be point blank, but still has -6 range penalty" thing.

Kaelik
2007-09-01, 07:42 PM
Sounds cool. Also works well with thrown weapons when it comes to verisimilitude. Eliminates the "Accurate enough to be point blank, but still has -6 range penalty" thing.

But it completely negates all sneak attack and precision damage with throwing weapons.

What Invisible Blade? You were forced to take Far Shot, but now you can only sneak attack with your daggers at someone you could also 5ft and full attack anyway? Tough luck. Everyone knows you can't sneak attack with a thrown weapon.

Draz74
2007-09-01, 08:33 PM
But it completely negates all sneak attack and precision damage with throwing weapons.

What Invisible Blade? You were forced to take Far Shot, but now you can only sneak attack with your daggers at someone you could also 5ft and full attack anyway? Tough luck. Everyone knows you can't sneak attack with a thrown weapon.

Yeah. Thrown weapons would be better off if they could do PBS / precision damage for a whole range increment. Of course, that house rule gets messy, because then a bow can sneak attack from over 100' away. :smallyuk:

Kaelik
2007-09-01, 09:03 PM
Yeah. Thrown weapons would be better off if they could do PBS / precision damage for a whole range increment. Of course, that house rule gets messy, because then a bow can sneak attack from over 100' away. :smallyuk:

Actually, they would make more sense if you could sneak attack within 30ft. And that's what the rules are. Look how easy that problem was solved.

I mean really, if you are going to be houseruling anyway why not just only house rule non-thrown weapons?

StickMan
2007-09-01, 10:00 PM
Far Shot work for all ranged weapons, including thrown ones. As they generally have pathetic range increments, it actually might be a good feat to take.

What are you talking about pathetic Ranges. The ranges on the bows are completely unrealistic you can hardly call something that does not even work in the least how it should unrealistic. I've played a few archers and Far Shot rarely ever comes in to play you almost never have an enemy that is more that 100 feet away from you let alone a 150 and in the few cases that it did the small penalty is minor compare to how far you are firing. Your just better off taking another feat than far shot, something that will actually have an effect on how well you fight.

DSCrankshaw
2007-09-01, 11:10 PM
What are you talking about pathetic Ranges. The ranges on the bows are completely unrealistic you can hardly call something that does not even work in the least how it should unrealistic. I've played a few archers and Far Shot rarely ever comes in to play you almost never have an enemy that is more that 100 feet away from you let alone a 150 and in the few cases that it did the small penalty is minor compare to how far you are firing. Your just better off taking another feat than far shot, something that will actually have an effect on how well you fight.
He's talking about the pathetic ranges of thrown weapons. You know, 10 feet for daggers and throwing axes. I once had a dwarven fighter who took PBS just so he could get Far Shot. I wanted to be able to use a throwing axe to hit a goblin whom I couldn't just walk up to and thwack.

MrNexx
2007-09-02, 12:32 AM
Sounds cool. Also works well with thrown weapons when it comes to verisimilitude. Eliminates the "Accurate enough to be point blank, but still has -6 range penalty" thing.

It also eliminates sneak attacking with spells, since most of them don't have range increments, just ranges.

And, cool as it is, thrown weapons are generally not the most effective weapons in the world unless you put a lot of practice into them. If I had someone who took a PrC that specialized in thrown weapons, I'd stick in a class ability that eased up on the restrictions.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-02, 09:22 AM
What Invisible Blade? You were forced to take Far Shot, but now you can only sneak attack with your daggers at someone you could also 5ft and full attack anyway? Tough luck. Everyone knows you can't sneak attack with a thrown weapon.
Uh, with Far Shot, the range increment for your daggers would be 20 ft. That would allow sneak attacks within 10 ft.

Anyway, I did mention it was a verisimilitude issue. There may be some game play issues. Still, doesn't make much sense to say, "He's so far away, I have a 30% decrease in my accuracy to hit him at all, but whach me hit his kidneys spot on!"

Kaelik
2007-09-02, 10:29 AM
Uh, with Far Shot, the range increment for your daggers would be 20 ft. That would allow sneak attacks within 10 ft.

Right, and at that range you could five foot step and full attack without throwing your daggers, a superior choice most of the time. Arguably you could five foot step to 10ft and be able to throw your daggers. But there is little point in throwing weapons from 10ft away. And there is a class with sneak attack that is built with exactly a 30ft throw in mind.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-02, 11:42 AM
Right, and at that range you could five foot step and full attack without throwing your daggers, a superior choice most of the time.
If your character is built with ranged combat in mind, enganging a fellow in melee is rarely the superior choice.


But there is little point in throwing weapons from 10ft away.
Well, you certainly hit a nail on the head right there. Most throwing weapons have a 10 ft. range increment, so throwing anything from further away creates attack roll penalties. This applies with or without sneak attack.


And there is a class with sneak attack that is built with exactly a 30ft throw in mind.
Well, then we might have to make a few more alterations to how we play the game when using Mr. Nexx's rule.

Kaelik
2007-09-02, 02:41 PM
If your character is built with ranged combat in mind, enganging a fellow in melee is rarely the superior choice.

Except that the specific class I am referring to is designed to be able to use ranged throwing and melee attacks. Rather then being "built with ranged in mind." As prereqs he is forced to take several feats which end up giving him the option to begin with a ranged, full attack, sneak attack at 30ft, and then close for melee combat (or let them close.) He is meant to fight in melee, as well.


Well, you certainly hit a nail on the head right there. Most throwing weapons have a 10 ft. range increment, so throwing anything from further away creates attack roll penalties. This applies with or without sneak attack.

And yet, Sneak Attack specifically extends to 30ft. Because within thirty feet it is quite possible for a skilled thrower to hit a vital area. And secondly, by this logic throwing weapons without the Far shot feat would only get SA at 5ft, melee range. If they did take the Far Shot feat then they are not taking any penalties at 20ft, so why can't they SA there?


Well, then we might have to make a few more alterations to how we play the game when using Mr. Nexx's rule.

I hope you are not seriously suggesting that you should adapt your character concepts/combat tactics/expectations of how the rules should work to fit a houserule. The house rule could just as easily be: half for ranged weapons except throwing weapons that SA on their entire range increment (or even better, that SA under 30ft.) It is a Houserule. Make it what makes sense from a balance/how things should work perspective. Don't just treat a houserule as set in stone.

MrNexx
2007-09-02, 03:40 PM
I think he's saying that, if you do use the houserule, you have to make a couple changes to other aspects of the game.

The fact is, most throwing weapons are lousy weapons. Even spears aren't all that hot unless you add a machine (atlatl) to improve them. They suffer from accuracy problems and they don't do a heck of a lot of damage. Now, sure, you can throw a dart (shuriken) very accurately a reasonable distance during a dart game. However, even then, regulation distance is only 7', 9.25"... or about 5', when you account for the length of a person's arm. Knives go a bit further (some googling and wiki'ing didn't turn up tournament distances; wiki put a maximum range as 100 feet, or about 5 range increments in D&D terms, if you have far shot... which is the maximum for a thrown weapon).

But that's hitting a stationary target, not a living body that will be moving, and possibly trying to defend itself. Like I said, I prefer to introduce a little more verisimilitude into the game, and make changes to the one or two PrCs that focus on knives, rather than dealing with the break in the suspension of disbelief.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-02, 08:08 PM
And yet, Sneak Attack specifically extends to 30ft. Because within thirty feet it is quite possible for a skilled thrower to hit a vital area.
Possible and likely are two very different concepts. See Nexx's post above for some good reasons the two may not overlap in this case.


And secondly, by this logic throwing weapons without the Far shot feat would only get SA at 5ft, melee range.
So? Is there an inherent reason it has to be possible to sneak attack from further away without any additional training?


If they did take the Far Shot feat then they are not taking any penalties at 20ft, so why can't they SA there?
Same reason you can't Sneak Attack with a Longbow from 100 ft. despite not taking any penalties, I imagine. Works to model a continuous concept with discrete measurements.


I hope you are not seriously suggesting that you should adapt your character concepts/combat tactics/expectations of how the rules should work to fit a houserule.
I'm saying a simple houserule can have far reaching implications that require the alteration of other rules on occasion. A lot of people don't like playing with alignment for example. So, they introduce a house rule that says, "We do not play with the alignment rules." But to make it work, they then have to make changes to classes such as the Paladin, Cleric, Incarnate, Soulborn, and Blackgaurd. They need to figure out what to do with spells like detect evil, protection from good, holy word, and word of chaos. And so on.

Likewise, this house rule could affect classes that, for whatever reason, are dependent on being able to sneak attack within 30 ft. with a ranged weapon. So, to prevent crippling that class, you can make a few alterations to it. You can maybe start with a new class ability that makes it possible for members of the class to sneak attack within 30 ft., despite the thrown weapon's range increment.


The house rule could just as easily be: half for ranged weapons except throwing weapons that SA on their entire range increment (or even better, that SA under 30ft.)
It could be. But then it could also be as outlined above.


It is a Houserule. Make it what makes sense from a balance/how things should work perspective.
Some people—Mr. Nexx and myself, for example—believe things should work in a way that enhances the verisimilitude of the game's setting. So that is exactly where this rule is coming from. And, yes, balance is also a concern, otherwise I wouldn't suggest making exceptions for the Invisible Blade.


Don't just treat a houserule as set in stone.
The very concept of house rules arises from the idea that no rule whatsoever is set in stone. Otherwise there would be no house rules, because the official rules take precedence. So I don't think we have to wory about that.

AtomicKitKat
2007-09-09, 10:45 AM
What's the purpose for Far Shot?

This! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=790798)

I could have sworn OotBI would be worth something in there, but I guess not.