Defining Alignments

[Promethean]

Okay, first off. I know this topic has basically been skub sense it's creation and trying to define philosophical catch-22's that have been plaguing humanity for centuries into 9 easy to understand categories is a rather monumental task, but It's been a pain as both a player and a DM to try to work out actions as evil/good/chaotic/lawful when books will handwave it and will throw the descriptor onto any action they feel like regardless of how appropriate it is.

So I'd like to try and define said D&D terms into fleshed out guidelines that don't rely on D&D's habit of "Cartoon" morality. If I miss something, contradict myself or if you have a different(constructive) opinion, I'd be happy to know. I am human after all and prone to my own bias's:

[Good]: The best way I can define good is as unrestrained and unselfish desire AND action to empower, help, improve the lives of, and encourage the happiness of any creature. Improving thing the lives of others at the cost of yourself does not make the action any more or less good, it only makes the action more meaningful to those involved(or dumb if you don't have the means to do what you're trying). Please note that this is Any creature, regardless of philosophy, alignment, or level of power. Trying to help a fiend to overcome their personally issues isn't evil, just very dumb/naive.

[Evil]: The unrestrained and uncaring desire OR action to further a goal regardless of effect to one-self or others. This can be any goal, no matter how vile or noble, evil(the force) isn't choosy. Note that this can be an action or an intention, meaning that unless one is both good in intention and action at the same time, then they are either walking the line of neutrality or well on the path to the lower planes. As insidious and unfair as that is, that's exactly how evil is supposed to work, insidiously and unfairly.

[Law]: The defining, understanding, and perfecting of all aspects of reality into a lasting and or permanent system. Order and Law seek to organized and specialize everything from people, objects, and more abstract systems into perfectly optimized functional versions of themselves. Any action that improves upon, extends the lifetime of, or causes something to act in a pre-defined way is an orderly act. Note this only effects actions, Law could not care less what your intentions are as long as the master plan is followed and the end result is on schedule.

[Chaos]: Uuuuuuuuuh? I'm honestly stumped. Although it may be thematic for chaos to be undefinable this really f***s with my spreadsheet. Chaos has a Tendency to mess with systems of order by changing or ruining things at random, but will also sometimes help or even create systems of order if left to it's own devices(like in evolution). As much as saying so would earn you a B**** slap from any lawful creature, Chaos isn't necessarily the opposite of Law like in Good VS Evil, it's simply Error: Undefined, it's the Devide by Zero of the D&D world. Characters are chaotic when they do..... Something. That one something when they go outside the box and make rues to things they're not supposed to or even break them in ways that are allowed on merit of rule of Cool Alone. As infuriating as Chaos is, it also creates many of the greatest moments to ever see the light of day.

[FaerieGodfather]

It might help you to understand Immortal Chaos if you understood Mortal Chaos first.

Law is about the imposition of order, of systems of control, upon thinking beings. Impose isn't a very nice thing to do to someone, you know? Every Lawful social order-- whether LE, LN, or even LG-- is built on a foundation of corpses and every day, even the most benevolent social orders victimize and revictimize some portion of their subjects for the unjust benefit of others.

Any rational person understands that social order-- hell, natural order-- is necessary for the individual members of that social order to achieve their goals. But Chaos... sees the tradeoff being made. And the more Chaotic a gentlebeing is, the less value they see in the social order compared to the horrific price we're paying for it. They don't want the lines drawn so sharp they cut people, even if they'd enjoy cutting those people themselves. Even the most Chaotic mortals decline to overthrow the loremasters' taxonomies of living beings, because those things don't hurt them.

Both the Paladin and the Holy Liberator are willing to reform a corrupt system from within, to a point.

Both the Paladin and the Holy Liberator are willing to overthrow a corrupt system and put its leaders to the sword, past that point.

The difference is, the Paladin will let the system slide much further into tyranny before hoisting the Black Flag; the more he chooses Law over Good, the further he will let it slide.

And the Holy Liberator will hoist the Black Flag much sooner; the more he chooses Chaos over Good, the sooner he starts slitting throats.

The Paladin and the Holy Liberator can be comrades in a Good society... but as soon as things start going pear-shaped, they're going to be on opposite sides of Doctor Guillotine, for the same reason: for the greater good.

The driving force behind Chaos is to see what happens, to let things-- including themselves-- act according to their natures, according to their desires, without being shoehorned into artificial roles by others. The further you drill down into reality itself, the more you see that Law's rules and order simply don't apply to it, and a rational being should embrace the impossible. Categories and strictures are limitations that thinking beings are better off without, as much as possible; they lessen us, they lessen what we are capable of.

[Jowgen]

One point to consider in this endeavour of the planar history of the alignments.

Law and chaos were the original opposing alignment forces, with several indicators that Chaos came first. For example, the abyss has that Draeden sleeping inside it (FC I) and the Slaad spawning stone in Limbo apparently predates just about everything. Then came Law and as a result of their conflict, roughly around the time of Asmodeus' fall, Good and Evil graduated from a matter of personal style into a clear cosmic distinction.

Going from that, it can be argued that Chaos is the foundation of everything, with all other alignments being nothing more than modifications imposed upon that original white cloth.

[Promethean]

It might help you to understand Immortal Chaos if you understood Mortal Chaos first.

Law is about the imposition of order, of systems of control, upon thinking beings. Impose isn't a very nice thing to do to someone, you know? Every Lawful social order-- whether LE, LN, or even LG-- is built on a foundation of corpses and every day, even the most benevolent social orders victimize and revictimize some portion of their subjects for the unjust benefit of others.

Any rational person understands that social order-- hell, natural order-- is necessary for the individual members of that social order to achieve their goals. But Chaos... sees the tradeoff being made. And the more Chaotic a gentlebeing is, the less value they see in the social order compared to the horrific price we're paying for it. They don't want the lines drawn so sharp they cut people, even if they'd enjoy cutting those people themselves. Even the most Chaotic mortals decline to overthrow the loremasters' taxonomies of living beings, because those things don't hurt them.

The driving force behind Chaos is to see what happens, to let things-- including themselves-- act according to their natures, according to their desires, without being shoehorned into artificial roles by others. The further you drill down into reality itself, the more you see that Law's rules and order simply don't apply to it, and a rational being should embrace the impossible. Categories and strictures are limitations that thinking beings are better off without, as much as possible; they lessen us, they lessen what we are capable of.

Um, Is this an actual opinion or a very in-depth viewpoint from a chaotic character? I don't mean to be rude but that legitameately sounded like chaotic alignment propoganda.:smalleek:

Though I'd contest that all functioning things in any structure or natural state is build on the corpses that came before. Including a perfectly chaotic one. After all how does a chaotic individual deal with another when there is a limited reasource they both want, history tells us they either try to kill/scare away each other winner-take-all or they form an agreed social structure to share(thus become less chaotic). You don't trade any more or less corpses choosing law or chaos, there will Always be corpses.


One point to consider in this endeavour of the planar history of the alignments.

Law and chaos were the original opposing alignment forces, with several indicators that Chaos came first. For example, the abyss has that Draeden sleeping inside it (FC I) and the Slaad spawning stone in Limbo apparently predates just about everything. Then came Law and as a result of their conflict, roughly around the time of Asmodeus' fall, Good and Evil graduated from a matter of personal style into a clear cosmic distinction.

Going from that, it can be argued that Chaos is the foundation of everything, with all other alignments being nothing more than modifications imposed upon that original white cloth.

As a force I understand was the beginning of the D&D-verse, but I don't thing that really dictates that all alignments are a lesser form of chaos, the two points seem mutually exclusive. I'd also like to take alignments as forces away from the discussion as they always lead to situation where if a character does something lawful for lawful reasons but earns "chaos" points because "chaos" magic was involved. I personally think that's a glaring flaw in the alignment system, and personally ignore rules that say "X is a good/evil/chaotic/etc. act" rules if it makes no sense in roleplay and it undermines the value of your character's morality if random magic is able to change it on the fly.

[FaerieGodfather]

Um, Is this an actual opinion or a very in-depth viewpoint from a chaotic character? I don't mean to be rude but that legitameately sounded like chaotic alignment propoganda.:smalleek:

It's a reasonable question, but I'm not going to answer it.

Instead, having read my "chaotic propaganda" about all the things Law has to amputate to fit into its neat categories... I would ask you to re-read your description of what Perfect Law, and the Lawful alignment entail... and then ask yourself that same question first.


Though I'd contest that all functioning things in any structure or natural state is build on the corpses that came before. Including a perfectly chaotic one.

Sure. But the difference is, when Law murders you... it whispers in your ear as you are dying that it's for some greater purpose, that your death was necessary rather than a series of deliberate, measured choices that somehow ended with three feet of steel intruding upon your most intimate of spaces. Doesn't matter if it's Lawful Good or Lawful Evil, when Law murders you, it always claims to be murdering you for your own good and that any suffering is your own fault for not cooperating.

Even if Law has a conscience-- and all of LG and most of LN does-- that's a powerful salve.

Whatever conscience Chaos has must bear the full weight of its actions. Chaos commits atrocities, but its atrocities will always be smaller; the Chaotic conscience is not silenced as easily, and the Chaotic self-interest doesn't keep motivating when it isn't being fed. It takes Law to convince a person to hurt other innocent people to make someone else rich.

[Promethean]

It's a reasonable question, but I'm not going to answer it.

Instead, having read my "chaotic propaganda" about all the things Law has to amputate to fit into its neat categories... I would ask you to re-read your description of what Perfect Law, and the Lawful alignment entail... and then ask yourself that same question first.

That Law specializes things for a pre-defined goal? I'm not sure I follow, I thought I displayed both Law and Chaos in a favorable light.:smallconfused:


Sure. But the difference is, when Law murders you... it whispers in your ear as you are dying that it's for some greater purpose, that your death was necessary rather than a series of deliberate, measured choices that somehow ended with three feet of steel intruding upon your most intimate of spaces. Doesn't matter if it's Lawful Good or Lawful Evil, when Law murders you, it always claims to be murdering you for your own good and that any suffering is your own fault for not cooperating.

Even if Law has a conscience-- and all of LG and most of LN does-- that's a powerful salve.

Whatever conscience Chaos has must bear the full weight of its actions. Chaos commits atrocities, but its atrocities will always be smaller; the Chaotic conscience is not silenced as easily, and the Chaotic self-interest doesn't keep motivating when it isn't being fed. It takes Law to convince a person to hurt other innocent people to make someone else rich.

Yes, and people in lawful societies also has a better quality of life. The barbarian and orc tribes still live in rather harsh natural states while cities are rather nice and cushy by comparison. Even If you're chaotic, a lawful society just seems like the better deal to me as you don't have to follow the laws if you're so inclined and don't get caught. On the other hand in a chaotic one nothing is stopping anyone stronger than you from taking your stuff whenever they feel like it.

Call me Biased, but I really don't see the hang-up.

[FaerieGodfather]

I'm not sure I follow, I thought I displayed both Law and Chaos in a favorable light.:smallconfused:


When I responded, I didn't think you were biased against Chaos at all; I thought you were having a hard time understanding its motivations, because you were defining it strictly in terms of the absence of/opposition to Law.

I am Chaotic in Real Life, for Real Life reasons I properly ought not to discuss here, but I do believe that a balance of concerns is necessary. At the very least... if people want to consider themselves and their social order Lawful Good, they damned well need to understand why people are resisting it.

[Promethean]

When I responded, I didn't think you were biased against Chaos at all; I thought you were having a hard time understanding its motivations, because you were defining it strictly in terms of the absence of/opposition to Law.

I am Chaotic in Real Life, for Real Life reasons I properly ought not to discuss here, but I do believe that a balance of concerns is necessary. At the very least... if people want to consider themselves and their social order Lawful Good, they damned well need to understand why people are resisting it.

Then we may be at an im-pass here. I real life I'd most definitely describe myself as lawful neutral, so I might just not "get it". I've read and reread your post and I can't help but think I'm missing a connecting thread to your points. Order I get and chaos I do not. I often find myself having to think of "Chaotic" in how it opposes and over-laps with order simply because it doesn't make sense to me otherwise.

Good/Evil is easy though. People just tend to be wishy-washy about it because most people have done and like do to do things that, under scrutiny, would be considered evil or unjust. I've seen many people including many of my friends become infuriated about something that they themselves have done, and if pointed out, will become defensive and try to deflect attention to circumstances to justify themselves like a politician under pressure.

[hamishspence]

Drawing from various 3.0-3.5 book statements (and the Hero Builder's Guidebook quiz) these might be useful guidelines.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?241789-Alignment-related-3-0-3-5-book-statements-summary

("Or even" references, are for the more strongly Chaotic answers)

Below is a list of Law/Chaos related statements from splatbooks.

You might be Chaotic if you:
(PHB page 104)
follow your conscience
resent being told what to do
favour new ideas over tradition
do what you promise if you feel like it
feel a compulsion to rebel

(Exemplars of Evil pages 18-19)
are avaricious, plotting to acquire items belonging to others
are duplicitous, honoring no alliance or bond of friendship, lying, cheating, betraying
are lascivious, driven by bodily impulses and desire for gratification
are mad- erratic and sometimes hostile
are nihilistic- defying social conventions and opposing tradition

You might be Lawful if you:
(PHB page 104)
tell the truth
keep your word
respect authority
honor tradition
judge those who fall short of their duties
feel a compulsion to obey
(Exemplars of Evil pages 17-19)

are arrogant - proud, vain, and full of self-importance
are trustworthy - your word is your bond
are intolerant, persecuting others for their differences
are direct, explaining exactly what you expect of others
are obsessive, focusing on something and not letting it go
are slothful, relying on others to carry out your schemes, but expecting them to be obeyed
are vain, consumed with appearances
are vindictive, never forgetting a slight or letting go of a grudge


You might be Neutral (Law/Chaos) if you:
(PHB page 104-105)
have normal respect for authority
feel no compulsion to obey or rebel
are honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others
see Law and Chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes


Regarding the leaders of the family:
Lawful characters might
be guided by their words

regard them as role models
Chaotic characters might
see them as often out of touch with the character's life

or even see them as out of touch with reality

when the family arrange the character's marriage to someone loathsome:
Lawful characters might
go through it, hiding their reluctance

or even go through it with pride at serving their family
Neutral (Law-Chaos) might
subtly work against the union

or even flee

When an estranged family member seeks a reconciliation on their deathbed:
Chaotic characters might
speak to them, but hold their ground

or even refuse to see them at all
Neutral (Law-Chaos) might
discuss the estrangement openly and without rancour

or even actively seek reconciliation, heeding their dying words.

When it comes to lifelong commitment to a single partner:
Lawful characters might
regard it as ideal - if achievable

or even be specifically waiting for such a commitment
Chaotic characters might
be worried they'd miss out on what others have to offer

or even regard tying themselves to one person as a huge mistake

When it comes to insisting on friends repaying money lent:
Lawful characters might
do so, but be flexible about exact terms

or even write up a contract at the time it was lent to ensure no misunderstanding
Neutral (Law-Chaos) might
not expect to be repaid (though they think it would be nice)

or even simply have the friend just "owe them a favour"

When it comes to keeping in touch with childhood friends:
Neutral (Law-Chaos) might
try to keep in touch

or even correspond regularly
Chaotic characters might
move around too much to stay in contact

or even feel they have nothing in common with their childhood friends anymore


When it comes to respecting the laws and authorities of the community:
Lawful characters might
do so, because they're generally the best way to govern

or even do so without question
Chaotic characters might
do so when it suits them, but not agree with some laws

or even not pay attention to the authorities at all because they have no hold on the character.

Regarding the possibility of being shunned, avoided, or mocked by members of the community:
Neutral (Law/Chaos) might
not be, because they're generally seen as normal

Or even set the standard for what is normal in the community
Chaotic characters might
sometimes be mocked, because they don't always fit in

or even because the minds of the community members simply cannot handle anyone that far outside the norm

when it comes to standing for office, or representing the interests of the community in some public manner:
Lawful characters might
regard it as everyone's duty to do so

or even consider it an honour they'd joyously accept
Neutral (Law-Chaos) might
only do so if no one else could handle the job

or even not want to be responsible for the community's welfare

When it comes to respecting the lawful authority of the rulers of the land:
Lawful characters might
regard them as generally fair and just

or even do so, wishing long life to them
Chaotic characters might
not do so, regarding them as no better than anyone else

or even regard rulers as invariably corrupted by power

When it comes to spying for a hostile foreign power (if offered a reasonably lucrative deal):
Chaotic characters might
do so because the nation's secrets mean little to them

or even do so because they think the nation could stand to be knocked down a peg
Neutral (Law/Chaos) might
not do so because they might get caught

or even not do so because they'd never violate the nation's trust in them

When it comes to relying on the government to enforce contracts and property rights:
Lawful characters might
do so, because they feel the courts are best equipped to handle individual disputes

or even because they feel maintaining the rule of law is more important than any individual dispute
Neutral (Law-Chaos) might
not do so because they feel the government can't even pave roads

or even take the view that if they can't defend something themselves, they don't deserve to have it

When it comes to confessing to a crime they're guilty of:
Lawful characters might
do so because it might get them a lighter sentence

or even because they feel it's their duty to do so
Neutral (Law Chaos) might
make the magistrates prove their guilt

or even attempt to "prove" their innocence

When it comes to repressing a revolutionary political opinion if there's a danger of punishment:
Neutral (Law/Chaos) might
not do so, only privately expressing their opinion to their friends

or even feel that politics isn't worth getting worked up about
Chaotic characters might
do so because "somebody has to speak the truth"

or even because they'd rather be punished than remain silent (Up the revolution!)

Regarding being ordered to testify about a crime they witnessed, if it would delay a journey significantly:
Lawful characters might
remain reluctantly, testify, and leave

Or even remain till the conclusion of the trial, in case further evidence is needed
Chaotic characters might
deny they saw anything

or even slip out of town to avoid testifying

When it comes to choosing between a lucrative job and a secure, steady one:
Lawful characters might
pick the secure one unless the other is exceptionally lucrative

or even always pick the secure one because they plan for the long term
Neutral (Law/Chaos) might
usually pick the lucrative one (but at least look at the secure one)

or even feel that steady work sounds like drudgery

When it comes to the best path to wealth:
Lawful characters might
feel that it's following a long-term plan that incorporates a comfortable level of risk

or even that it's hard work and perseverance
Chaotic characters might
feel that it's staying flexible so they can take advantage of good opportunities

or even that it's a matter of luck and being in the right place at the right time

When it comes to continuing a task they've been contracted for, once it suddenly gets much more dangerous:
Chaotic characters might
insist on renegotiating

or even take the view that once it's no longer a good deal, the deal is off
Lawful characters might
stick to it because it's good to have a reputation for dependability

or even because their word is their bond