Has anyone used the Mount spell in combat?

[RoboEmperor]

Forget riding it or using it to pull stuff. It's a 2hour/level summon that summons a 19hp horse with 13AC! At level 1 that's freaking crazy, though their attack is a -2.

I think it could be a phenomenally amazing trap/ambush fodder, or a mobile wall with a few castings. It can probably even pull a wall made up of wood or something so when it dies, the "wall" is still there.

Am I missing something here?

[Andezzar]

You may want to read up onthe spell and horses (not trained for combat):

You summon a light horse or a pony (your choice) to serve you as a mount.

A light horse cannot fight while carrying a rider.
The spell does not allow the horse to serve in any other capacity than as a mount. It cannot fight while carrying a rider. So unless the opposition attacks the horse it does not serve as meat shield.

[Uncle Pine]

The spell does not allow the horse to serve in any other capacity than as a mount. It cannot fight while carrying a rider. So unless the opposition attacks the horse it does not serve as meat shield.

The steed serves willingly and well. It's also a Large animal, meaning that if ordered to do so it's willing to fill a 10-ft. square on the combat grid with 19 hit points that need to either be killed or overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun) by any opponent, even if it's unable to fight back.

@OP: It's a rather estableished trick and it can be handy in the right condition, i.e. when you're first level and even the party's barbarian has less than 19 hp. On the same vein, you'd be a foal not to check Regal Procession from the Spell Compendium!

[Andezzar]

The steed serves willingly and well. It's also a Large animal, meaning that if ordered to do so it's willing to fill a 10-ft. square on the combat grid with 19 hit points that need to either be killed or overrun (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun) by any opponent, even if it's unable to fight back.I disagree. Willingness does not grant ability. While the mount may be willing to fill a 10 ft square without a rider it does not have the ability to so so, because it is only summoned to serve as a mount.

[Uncle Pine]

I disagree. Willingness does not grant ability. While the mount may be willing to fill a 10 ft square without a rider it does not have the ability to so so, because it is only summoned to serve as a mount.

Are you suggesting that the horse summoned by mount is incorporeal, doesn't occupy any space on the field and as such characters can just pass through it like air?

[Andezzar]

No, but you cannot order it to occupy a certain area unless the caster or someone else is mounted on it. Since the summoned horse does not take part in combat and is not designated as an opponent of the summoner's opponents, we do not know whether the square occupied by the horse count as occupied by a friend or foe for the opponents of the summoner.

[Elkad]

Use Mount to fight, to block a hall, to drop down a big hole on someone, and many other things. And since it's a standard conj(summon), all your augments fire.

There is a reason it gets referred to as "Wall of Horse".

And then there is the 3rd level one (Regal Procession) with CL/horses. Same 2hr/lvl duration as well.

Edit: Remember, Handle Animal will make it fight at your command. If the horse isn't trained for battle (up to your DM), it's a DC25 check of course.
And if it can't get away from the zombies, it'll probably fight anyway.

Hmm. How do I get Wild Empathy on a Sorc/Wizard (or Mount as a spell known on something else) at Lvl1?

[Uncle Pine]

No, but you cannot order it to occupy a certain area unless the caster or someone else is mounted on it. Since the summoned horse does not take part in combat and is not designated as an opponent of the summoner's opponents, we do not know whether the square occupied by the horse count as occupied by a friend or foe for the opponents of the summoner.

Even if for some reason your DM decides to rule that you can't tell the horse to move around, you can quite literally drop the horse between you and an opponent. Even assuming the horse is considered indifferent towards the caster's opponents, at the very least they will have to use some actions to influence it and make it leave (if there even is space for the horse to go somewhere else). Again, this assumes you can't impart to the horse the very basic command of staying somewhere, a command something apt to serve as a mount must necessarily know to... well, serve as a mount.


Mount
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One mount
Duration: 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No



Summoning
A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.


Conjuration
Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

[Andezzar]

Use Mount to fight,The summoned horse cannot fight while carrying a rider (cf. post #2 second quotation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22983258&postcount=2)).


to block a hall,You cannot order the summoned horse to move unless you are riding it(cf. post #2 first quotation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22983258&postcount=2)).
Putting it in the right place in the casting would work, I concede that.


to drop down a big hole on someone,As above, so you end up falling with the horse. Bullrushing the horse down a hole might work. Summoning it in thin air does not work as per the summoning rules.


and many other things.The spell doesn't allow anything but carrying the rider from A to B.


And since it's a standard conj(summon), all your augments fire.While true I don't see much use for the augments.

[Ashtagon]

The way I'd rule it, the horse will never attack. It will obey commands that you can communicate to it, but unless you're sitting on it, you can't really communicate with it (short of speaking Horse language).

That said, a DC 25 Handle Animal check is the requirement to get it to move where you want it to move. I can't find any formal rules on how close you need to be to perform this Handle Animal check. Based on the precedent set by 3.0 Animal Empathy, 30 feet and the animal's undivided attention seems about right; if using this precedent, it may be difficult getting the animal's undivided attention during a fight. Even if not being that strict, DC 25 is quite a high target number at levels where mount could be a meaningful meat shield.

Absent any specific commands related to carrying a rider, it would stay reasonably close to its summoner while also moving to avoid combat, which would include trying to avoid being a meat shield.

[Anthrowhale]

High Dexterity + Improved Initiative (to win initiative) + Power Word: Pain (to kill) + Mount (precast, to run away) is pretty good for a solo wizard at level 1.

[Elkad]

The summoned horse cannot fight while carrying a rider. You cannot order the summoned horse to move unless you are riding it

It doesn't say that. It says it "serves willingly as a mount", not that it won't do anything else. Even if it isn't preprogrammed to obey, Handle Animal should work fine.


As above, so you end up falling with the horse. Bullrushing the horse down a hole might work. Summoning it in thin air does not work as per the summoning rules.
Falling with it may not be a big deal, depending on your character. If I have Levitate up, it falls, I don't. Or I can just grab the edge. Unless you intend to argue that the instant I stop riding it, it stops falling?

"summon on a surface capable of supporting it". Which might be a floating disk, the barbarian, or whatever else. (and admittedly I missed that rule the first time I dropped it on someone, but only once)

If it doesn't allow anything except carrying a rider, what happens when I need to go in the throne room without it? Does it become Schrodinger's horse until I'm ready to ride it again?


While true I don't see much use for the augments.
Augment Summoning means +4str and +4hp (con). Takes 3 more swings from the goblin to kill it. Cloudy Conjuration fires. Free Extends. Whatever else you've optimized into your summoner.

It's a horse. Not a construct, not a figment. Getting a horse trained for battle may be a stretch, but it's obviously trained for riding at least.
If a lion tries to eat it, it's either going to fight or run.
And of course I could always let my familiar ride it. Especially if you seem to think it's a mindless robot-horse that magically obeys every directional command of it's rider while ignoring everything else, because then my spider won't need to hold the reins or talk to it.

[Nifft]

It doesn't say that. It says it "serves willingly as a mount", not that it won't do anything else.

And here is the crux.

Practical: "The rules say I can do this one thing, therefore I can do this one thing."

Theoretical: "The rules don't say I can't do these other things, so I can do all of them."

[Andezzar]

It doesn't say that. It says it "serves willingly as a mount", not that it won't do anything else.Actually that is how spells have to work. Otherwise I could say that my fireball suffocates and or cooks anyone in the area because the rules don't say it doesn't. The first part is a rule for a light horse, the summoned horse still has to follow those rules.

Also compare it to the rules for summon monster. there you have a lot more leeway:
It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.



Even if it isn't preprogrammed to obey, Handle Animal should work fine.How so? It serves as a mount not as an animal to be commanded by Handle animal. Where is the trick that allows you to move an animal to a certain place?


Falling with it may not be a big deal, depending on your character. If I have Levitate up, it falls, I don't.That would indeed work.


If it doesn't allow anything except carrying a rider, what happens when I need to go in the throne room without it? Does it become Schrodinger's horse until I'm ready to ride it again?No, but it just stands around.


Augment Summoning means +4str and +4hp (con). Takes 3 more swings from the goblin to kill it.True, if the goblin attacks the horse instead of the summoner/the rest of the party.

Cloudy Conjuration fires. Free Extends. Whatever else you've optimized into your summoner.Those do have use.


And of course I could always let my familiar ride it. Especially if you seem to think it's a mindless robot-horse that magically obeys every command of it's rider, because then my spider won't need to hold the reins or talk to it.Yes you could do that as long as the spider does not want the horse to do something that would require a ride check. You could use the familiar to bring the horse into position.

[Uncle Pine]

It doesn't say that. It says it "serves willingly as a mount", not that it won't do anything else. Even if it isn't preprogrammed to obey, Handle Animal should work fine.
Gotta agree with Andezzar on this. There's a reason warhorses exist, and that is because light horses aren't trained for fighting although you can still use one as (horse)meat shield (which is what the two of us disagree about).
However, with a caster level of at least 252 and a DC 20 Handle Animal check you can train your Mount to fight before the end of the spell.


"summon on a surface capable of supporting it". Which might be a floating disk, the barbarian, or whatever else. (and admittedly I missed that rule the first time I dropped it on someone, but only once)
None of your two examples are actually suitable places to summon a light horse: the disk may be able to support its weight but it's far too small (3-ft. diameter against a horse's 10-ft. square), and a barbarian is likewise an unsuitable surface for a horse to stand on, unless he happens to be a rather big awakened barbarian animated table.


If a lion tries to eat it, it's either going to fight or run.
It'll either die or run away. Regardless, it'll have wasted a lion's full round.


And of course I could always let my familiar ride it. Especially if you seem to think it's a mindless robot-horse that magically obeys every directional command of it's rider while ignoring everything else, because then my spider won't need to hold the reins or talk to it.
It's rather impractical, but considering your spider familiar has the same Ride ranks as you...

EDIT:
How so? It serves as a mount not as an animal to be commanded by Handle animal. Where is the trick that allows you to move an animal to a certain place?
Under Handle Animal:

Handle Animal (Cha; Trained Only)
Check
The DC depends on what you are trying to do.

Handle an Animal
This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

“Push” an Animal
To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.
Both of these are separate uses compared to teaching an animal a trick. As Mount summons an animal, you can use Handle Animal on it.

[Elkad]

And here is the crux.

Practical: "The rules say I can do this one thing, therefore I can do this one thing."

Theoretical: "The rules don't say I can't do these other things, so I can do all of them."


It specifically says it's a horse. It has horse stats. Therefore it does horsey things. Nobody expects it to grant wishes or fly. We do expect it to eat grass if free to do so (and poison tansy, and the neighbor's rosebushes and unattended apple pies), stomp snakes, possibly attempt to make baby horses, swish it's tail at flies, etc. We do expect it to be "Trained for Purpose: Riding" as the Animal Handle skill, so we don't have to Push it to ride it. Which should include the tricks Come, Heel, and Stay.

The most-logical assumption is it Summons a horse that in all respects behaves exactly like a real horse. Other than disappearing at the end of the duration, it would be indistinguishable from a horse I rented at the livery.

If you want to twist"only serves as a mount" into the most restrictive possible interpretation, I've got some questions.

Assume when I summon it, I put it 25' away from me, in a clear spot completely surrounded by wolves. What does it do? Stand there and die? Fight back? Try to Bull Rush it's way out? If it just stands there, does it at least attempt to defend itself, or does it forfeit it's dex by remaining perfectly motionless? If one of the Wolves succeeds in tripping it, will it attempt to get back to it's feet? Does it even exert the effort to remain standing, or will it just collapse prone in the absence of fulfilling its ONE TRUE PURPOSE of being a mount?

Assume my Ride Check has a -3 modifier. If I'm riding it and we are clearly headed at a cliff, will it willingly jump to it's death?

Can I make it Hustle for long (damaging) periods without a check?

Can I use it for a pack horse (leading it instead of riding it)?

How about putting a rider on it and hitching it to a cart as well?

If I leave it standing in a stable and go elsewhere, can you, a complete stranger, wander in and ride it away?

Can you lead it away?

What if you dismount me. Can you hop on and ride it away, despite my commands for it to stay?

Do I have to make a Handle Animal and/or Ride check to get it to ride across an invisible bridge (or use Air Walk)?

If I leave it standing in a room and the room fills with water, will it attempt to leave the room to save it's own life? Swim?

If the enemy Dominates it, can he order it to attack me?

[Geddy2112]

As a caster, I rarely go anywhere without it. Small casters whipping out a medium pony can make great use of it. Even if it cannot fight(my table rules that it can if you pass handle animal) it serves as a fantastic tank and meatshield. A good trick is to drop behind it and use it as a literal meat shield between you and whatever. Mindless killers(skeletons, gelatinous cubes) will just mush the thing buying you time, ranged enemies have to shoot it or at you in cover, and at worst smart enemies have to logistically move around it. Another thing to keep in mind is the mobility increase-smaller creatures often have slower speed, but your light horse/pony is much faster and can quickly move you around the battlefield.
They make decent alarm spells too, as they will spook and run at danger, or draw the opening attack of monsters in the night.

That said, I would never cast it in combat. I normally have it up for dungeons and travel, and if combat breaks out it is a fun trick.

[Aetis]

It's a good trick, and as with most such tricks, I'm not sure if I'd advocate it as a combat spell, mostly because it would help NPCs a lot more than PCs.

I would be pretty pissed as a player if all villains have to do to make efficient mobile meat walls is to bring few lv 1 casters along.

[Andezzar]

Both of these are separate uses compared to teaching an animal a trick. As Mount summons an animal, you can use Handle Animal on it.Both uses reference tricks that you order the animal to perform however to my knowledge there is no trick that encompasses ordering an animal to go to a designated place other than the handler's location.

[Elkad]

Getting it to move somewhere.
Tricks include at least - Attack, Defend, Come, Fetch, Heel, Guard, Seek, Track, Down, Stay, Seek, Perform, and Work. I'm sure there are more I missed.
A whole bunch of those could be used to convince it to move somewhere. Work (and an appropriate sub-task) definitely could, as it could cover almost anything. Horses (if trained for it) follow hand signals just fine, almost as well as they follow voice or reins or shifting body weight, so you have a lot of options how you give the command.

Even something as weird as "guard the goblin chief" might convince it to move past all the other goblins. Which probably isn't very useful, unless the other goblins are in range of you and you want them to waste their attacks of opportunity so you can safely do something that provokes.

[Gnaeus]

Both uses reference tricks that you order the animal to perform however to my knowledge there is not trick that encompasses ordering an animal to go to a designated place.

Deliver makes the animal drop an object you give it at a place you designate. Fetch makes it get an object. “Hey pokey, drop this stick at the end of that corridor beside that wolf”.

[Andezzar]

OK, but those are all unintended uses of the tricks (except maybe for the work trick). They would work, but using handle animal that way seems to me akin to using the water bucket to heal someone.

[Elkad]

Deliver makes the animal drop an object you give it at a place you designate. Fetch makes it get an object. “Hey pokey, drop this stickNote that says "Guess who prepared Explosive Runes this morning? :vaarsuvius: at the end of that corridor beside that wolf”.

FTFY. :smallbiggrin:

[Ashtagon]

Deliver makes the animal drop an object you give it at a place you designate. Fetch makes it get an object. “Hey pokey, drop this stick at the end of that corridor beside that wolf”.

If domination effects allow a roll to resist suicidal commands, an order that is not magically enhanced for a non-combatant to stand next to (or even "closer than the friendly combatants to the enemy") surely deserves at least as much of a roll to allow self-preservation to take over.

[JustIgnoreMe]

On the same vein, you'd be a foal not to check
I see what you did there...

[Uncle Pine]

Both uses reference tricks that you order the animal to perform however to my knowledge there is no trick that encompasses ordering an animal to go to a designated place other than the handler's location.

Correction: they enable you to order an animal a task or trick that it knows (or doesn't, depending whether you're handling or pushing). "Go there" is definitely a task a horse is physically capable of performing. Even if your DM doesn't acknowledge the fact you can teach or make animals go somewhere that isn't yourself this way, the Perform trick should let you have an horse make a simple movement in a direction. As a matter of fact, many tricks a dog trainer can teach to a dog are essentially "go somewhere and do X".

[Nifft]

It specifically says it's a horse. It has horse stats. Therefore it does horsey things. Horsey things centered around serving as a mount. Not all horsey things equally.


We do expect it to be "Trained for Purpose: Riding" as the Animal Handle skill, so we don't have to Push it to ride it. Which should include the tricks Come, Heel, and Stay. Incorrect, we are not told to expect that. It's willing to be ridden, not well-trained in any particular capacity. Look, here are the stats, this is what the spell gives you:

- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm#horseLight
~or~
- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/pony.htm

Do you see any trained tricks in either entry? There are none to see. You get none from the rules.


The most-logical assumption is There is no need to assume. Just look at the stats. That's what you get.


If you want to twist"only serves as a mount" into the most restrictive possible interpretation, I've got some questions. Then ask your DM.

This is the crux: you can't rely on lawyer-ing the rules into some convoluted sculpture which supports your distant tangential interpretation when you need to convince someone outside your own head, like the DM of a real game.

I'm not your DM, so all I can do is present a reasonable interpretation of the rules, without augmentation from assumptions.

Would I allow mount shenanigans in my games? Maybe, but not because I think the rules support those shenanigans. It's because shenanigans can be fun.


Assume when I summon it, I put it 25' away from me, in a clear spot completely surrounded by wolves. What does it do? Stand there and die? Fight back? Try to Bull Rush it's way out? If it just stands there, does it at least attempt to defend itself, or does it forfeit it's dex by remaining perfectly motionless? If one of the Wolves succeeds in tripping it, will it attempt to get back to it's feet? Well, you could just read the entries for an idea of what might happen:


Combat

*A pony not trained for war does not normally use its hooves to attack but rather to run. Its hoof attack is treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the pony’s Strength bonus to damage.



Combat

A horse not trained for war does not normally use its hooves to attack. Its hoof attack is treated as a secondary attack and adds only half the horse’s Strength bonus to damage. (These secondary attacks are noted with an asterisk in the Attack and Full Attack entries for the heavy horse and the light horse.)


Seems like a poor tactical decision to use your action to summon a creature that normally tries to run away.




It's a good trick, and as with most such tricks, I'm not sure if I'd advocate it as a combat spell, mostly because it would help NPCs a lot more than PCs.

I would be pretty pissed as a player if all villains have to do to make efficient mobile meat walls is to bring few lv 1 casters along. Yeah, it's the sort of thing that seems funny at first, then gets old really quick -- unless you're in a low-ish power shenanigans game, in which case it could remain fun for a long time.

[RoboEmperor]

High Dexterity + Improved Initiative (to win initiative) + Power Word: Pain (to kill) + Mount (precast, to run away) is pretty good for a solo wizard at level 1.

True dat. 60ft speed makes it better than expeditious retreat. I'm definitely gonna replace Babau Slime on my sorcerer with this spell. It's only a DC 5 ride check to stay in the saddle when the horse bolts.

(Btw does anyone know where the rule that says light horses rears and bolts when hit?)

@Andezzar
If you want to get overly litigious, nowhere does it say a mount doesn't follow its master when hes not riding it. Also nowhere does it say a mount doesn't does go as directed, or that it doesn't defend its master.

In normal d&d you can order your mount to kill stuff, so just because it's a mount doesn't mean its a mindless automaton standing still doing nothing unless someone rides it.

[Elkad]

It's a horse. Same statblock as any other horse. Behaves like any other horse. That statblock could easily be a wild horse.

But this is a tame horse, since it "serves willingly". And a trained riding horse, not just one from the petting zoo, since it "serves well".

The simplest explanation is it acts exactly like any other riding horse. The ones you buy from Horace's Honest Horseflesh back in town. Not a warhorse, not a magebred horse, but a standard trained riding horse. Int 2, a couple tricks (or a task), etc.

Which means with a Push check, you can make it attack. Or by dropping it in a situation where it has no other option. Sure, it'll try to run from the wolves. Or try to fight if it's cornered. Depends on the situation. Either way it's useful.

More useful than a Color Spray? Probably not. More useful than a Celestial Monkey that only sticks around for 2 rounds? Probably so.

Part of practical wizardry is making the wrong spell fit the situation. Mount has the benefit of being long duration, and summoning a comparatively-sturdy creature for it's level.

Drop a pony in the middle of a bunch of wolves and it'll spend a couple rounds fighting (probably defensively), and dying. Or running away (and dying). Either way, I just disabled the wolves for the span of the pony's life.


So, given a couple points in Handle Animal, careful placement, or both, I can use Mount to replace Tenser's Disk, Blockade, Summon Monster 1 in many cases, Detect Pits, Expeditious Retreat, Longstrider, Jump, and a bunch of other stuff.
Thanks to the massive duration, I can even potentially use it for a whole bunch of those things on the same casting.

[RoboEmperor]

I think I solved the handle animal problem.

Pushing an animal only takes 1 full round action. So keep doing it until you succeed, as in you roll a 20.

Push it Defend me, so it will automatically defend me during combat without a check.

Yeah I'm definitely grabbing this spell! ZOMG It's so awesome!

[Tvtyrant]

I think that best effect is the trap-tripping one, honestly. It is cheap (750 GP for 50 hours), heavy, and you can have it wall peacefully in front of you to fall in pits, set off traps, etc.

[Elkad]

I think I solved the handle animal problem.

Pushing an animal only takes 1 full round action. So keep doing it until you succeed, as in you roll a 20.

You still need a net +5 to Handle Animal though. Not a big deal for a Sorc maybe. +4 Cha and 2 skillpoints (crossclass) will get it done. A Wizard will have problems with it. Assuming 10 Cha, he can't succeed until 7th level. By which time he's binding demons instead.

[RoboEmperor]

You still need a net +5 to Handle Animal though. Not a big deal for a Sorc maybe. +4 Cha and 2 skillpoints (crossclass) will get it done. A Wizard will have problems with it. Assuming 10 Cha, he can't succeed until 7th level. By which time he's binding demons instead.

Finally a legitimate advantage a sorcerer has over the focused specialist variant wizard :P

[Ashtagon]

It's a horse. Same statblock as any other horse. Behaves like any other horse. That statblock could easily be a wild horse.

But this is a tame horse, since it "serves willingly". And a trained riding horse, not just one from the petting zoo, since it "serves well".

The simplest explanation is it acts exactly like any other riding horse. The ones you buy from Horace's Honest Horseflesh back in town. Not a warhorse, not a magebred horse, but a standard trained riding horse. Int 2, a couple tricks (or a task), etc.

Which means with a Push check, you can make it attack. Or by dropping it in a situation where it has no other option. Sure, it'll try to run from the wolves. Or try to fight if it's cornered. Depends on the situation. Either way it's useful.

Am I the only one who noticed that since this horse lacks any specific combat skill tricks (SRD says riding animal training has Come, Heel, and Stay), the DC for most relevant push animal checks will be DC 25. That's quite hard at levels where the spell is relevant.

[daremetoidareyo]

You still need a net +5 to Handle Animal though. Not a big deal for a Sorc maybe. +4 Cha and 2 skillpoints (crossclass) will get it done. A Wizard will have problems with it. Assuming 10 Cha, he can't succeed until 7th level. By which time he's binding demons instead.

Do any demons have handle animal? Maybe we have a solution here!

[RoboEmperor]

Am I the only one who noticed that since this horse lacks any specific combat skill tricks (SRD says riding animal training has Come, Heel, and Stay), the DC for most relevant push animal checks will be DC 25. That's quite hard at levels where the spell is relevant.

As Elkad and I put it, high charisma + cross class + take 20 = 25 handle animal check.


Do any demons have handle animal? Maybe we have a solution here!

You don't need handle animal when you're binding an army of nightmares.

[Gnaeus]

Am I the only one who noticed that since this horse lacks any specific combat skill tricks (SRD says riding animal training has Come, Heel, and Stay), the DC for most relevant push animal checks will be DC 25. That's quite hard at levels where the spell is relevant.

1. It’s hour/level duration makes it relevant as a trap finder for quite a long time. It’s a good choice for a mid level wizard for level 1 slots or a cheap wand.

2. Skill checks are fairly easy to manipulate via lots of methods.

3. It never says the caster needs to handle it. One of your team muggles is likely to have handle maxed.

There’s an Akashic Magic veil (Horselords Greaves) that grants Mount at will when bound. We’ve killed like 20 ponies per adventure.

[Elkad]

There’s an Akashic Magic veil (Horselords Greaves) that grants Mount at will when bound. We’ve killed like 20 ponies per adventure.

Several years ago (my first 3.5 campaign), the DM gave us a trinket (a horseshoe nail) that would turn into a heavy draft horse for 8 hours a week. Command Word. If the horse died, it used an hour of the duration.

My wizard snatched it up and gave it to his raven. The party objected. "Why does your bird need a horse? He's already faster - and flies". Next fight the raven flew over a monster and said the command word. The party took up gathering enemies in clusters for avian-assisted equine bombardment.

At some point many drops later we actually tried to use it as a horse (to pull a cart). It fled in terror from the raven, and wouldn't go anywhere near anything that wasn't completely flat ground.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright so I found some rules....


Horses in Combat

Heavy warhorses, light warhorses and warponies can serve readily as combat steeds. Light horses, ponies, and heavy horses, however, are frightened by combat. If you don’t dismount, you must make a DC 20 Ride check each round as a move action to control such a horse. If you succeed, you can perform a standard action after the move action. If you fail, the move action becomes a full round action and you can’t do anything else until your next turn.

So...

I mean this isn't in the monster manual entry for horses so... arguably the successful handle animal check to defend should prevent the frighten condition from happening even when you're riding it because that horse will actively engage in combat rather than flee it.