An Undead Fiend?

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I was wondering, is it possible to have a creature that classifies as a fiend and an undead? It should be posable right or does it conflict with some mechanic? Thanks for the help.
Im trying to make an undead Tiefling warlock NPC for a future campaign.

[Wilb]

In past editions (3.5 I believe) there were things called visages, which were outsiders (a type that applied to any being native to an outer plane) and undead, linked to Orcus, but maybe my memory is working in some 3rd party or homebrew thing, I don't have ready access to my old stuff.

EDIT: They were Extraplanar undead (native from the abyss) not exactly fiend/undead, but the closest possible, I believe.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Ok cool i'll look into that. Thanks.

[Millstone85]

5e seems to have an unspoken rule against combining creature types.

For example, while dragonborn, elves and tielflings are of draconic, fey and fiendish ancestry, respectively, they all count as humanoids and nothing else.

[JackPhoenix]

Shadow Demons are undead demons. Their creature type is fiend, but they do have some features that fiends (demons specifically) lack, but undead have (condition immunities and no need to sleep, eat or breathe)

[Ganymede]

The devourer is a reasonable close example of an undead fiend.

In 3rd edition, the devourer was explicitly undead, while it is currently a fiend. That's what happens when Orcus makes his own demons, I guess.

[thoroughlyS]

I was wondering, is it possible to have a creature that classifies as a fiend and an undead? It should be posable right or does it conflict with some mechanic? Thanks for the help.
In this game, a creature only ever has one type. There is nothing in the rules saying what types of creatures can become undead, and the presence of alhoons, beholder zombies, and dracoliches implies that any type can. In my opinion, if a fiend becomes reanimated, it is just an undead, although it probably retains a lot of its former traits anyway.


Im trying to make an undead Tiefling warlock NPC for a future campaign.
In your specific case, this is actually a non-issue, because tieflings are merely humanoids and not fiends.

[damascoplay]

As someone already mentioned, creatures in 5e only have 1 type (Undead, humanoid, giant...) But that doesn't stop you from putting a Fiend template and slapping some undead traits in it.

Well, we do have Orcus after all.

[JoeJ]

In past editions (3.5 I believe) there were things called visages, which were outsiders (a type that applied to any being native to an outer plane) and undead, linked to Orcus, but maybe my memory is working in some 3rd party or homebrew thing, I don't have ready access to my old stuff.

EDIT: They were Extraplanar undead (native from the abyss) not exactly fiend/undead, but the closest possible, I believe.

Visages were introduced in the 2e Planescape adventure Dead Gods. They are undead tanar'ri (the 2e term for demon) created by Orcus, who is himself an undead tanar'ri deity in that adventure.

[BillyBobShorton]

Dude, if you're the DM, do whatever you want.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Ok thanks I think ill just go with Undead and not combine types.

[the_brazenburn]

Dude, if you're the DM, do whatever you want.

Currently, he isn't. I believe he's trying to make a skeletal cambion character, and is using this thread for advice to convince me to allow it.

Ivor, it's perfectly fine for you to be both an undead and a fiend, as long as there's no mechanical alteration.

[Naanomi]

Traditionally, true extraplanar creatures don’t leave behind real bodies when they die and their souls are not separate from their body so they cannot be classically ‘reanimated’

The few exceptions tended to not be ‘real’ Undead, but rather fiends who were bound to or tainted with negative energy enough to ‘count’ for practical purposes

[the_brazenburn]

Traditionally, true extraplanar creatures don’t leave behind real bodies when they die and their souls are not separate from their body so they cannot be classically ‘reanimated’

The few exceptions tended to not be ‘real’ Undead, but rather fiends who were bound to or tainted with negative energy enough to ‘count’ for practical purposes

But what if a fiend possessed a mortal corpse?

[JoeJ]

But what if a fiend possessed a mortal corpse?

That's what vampires are in the Buffyverse (and in some real world vampire traditions).

[Naanomi]

DnD has handled possession a lot and f different ways... most often the original creature is still mechanically present ‘inside’... a demon possessing a human is still two distinct creatures: a fiend and a humanoid. A fiend possessing an inanimate object is most likely just a fiend... even if the result is somewhat construct-like

My first instinct therefore is the possessed body is just a fiend, nothing more. It doesn’t matter much mechanically... The main question is ‘do you want turn Undead to work on it’ as far as I can see

[Ivor_The_Mad]

Currently, he isn't. I believe he's trying to make a skeletal cambion character, and is using this thread for advice to convince me to allow it.

Ivor, it's perfectly fine for you to be both an undead and a fiend, as long as there's no mechanical alteration.

Um not exactly. Its for my next dungeon im working on. It is going to be an NPC. So I will be the DM for it

[Greywander]

If you were insistent on dual-typing the creature I would do it as follows:

When something contains the clause that it affects [Type], it affects you.
When something contains the clause that it does not affect [Type], it does not affect you.
When something contains a clause that it affects [Type1] but does not affect [Type2], then one of the creature types would overrule the other.

In your case, if something specifically affects either fiends or undead, it would affect your fiend-undead hybrid.
If something specifically does not affect either fiends or undead, it would not affect your fiend-undead hybrid.
If something specifically affects, say, fiends but also specifically does not affect undead, then you would need to decide whether your fiend-undead hybrid was primarily a fiend or an undead.

Another way to do it would be to classify it as either a fiend or an undead, but then include a racial(?) feature that says it counts as a fiend/undead for X, Y, and Z. For example, a fiend that counts as undead for the purposes of Turn Undead.

[OvisCaedo]

Slightly tangential, but the very simplified creature types in 5e sometimes are kind of amusing. 5e lore means gnolls are pretty much just demon hyenas, but their creature type winds up as just "humanoid".

...And I wonder what the implication is for a Dracolich and anything that's supposed to be anti-dragon? Are those kinds of effects supposed to be "type" based or logic based?

[Greywander]

Play a half-dragon dracolich shadow dragon dragonborn. Your creature type is still humanoid because dracolich only says it changes it from dragon to undead, but half-dragon doesn't change you to dragon type. I kind of want to play this character now, just for how stupid it is.*

On a more serious note, the Tanaruuk from Volo's is a fiend with a subtype of both demon and orc, which is interesting because orcs are generally a humanoid subtype.

*Actually, according to the Monster Manual (pg. 83-84):

A shadow dragon can't be transformed into a dracolich, for it has already lost too much of its physical form.

A dracolich can't be turned into a shadow dragon, since it loses its draconic nature when it becomes undead.

[PhantomSoul]

If you were insistent on dual-typing the creature I would do it as follows:

When something contains the clause that it affects [Type], it affects you.
When something contains the clause that it does not affect [Type], it does not affect you.
When something contains a clause that it affects [Type1] but does not affect [Type2], then one of the creature types would overrule the other.

In your case, if something specifically affects either fiends or undead, it would affect your fiend-undead hybrid.
If something specifically does not affect either fiends or undead, it would not affect your fiend-undead hybrid.
If something specifically affects, say, fiends but also specifically does not affect undead, then you would need to decide whether your fiend-undead hybrid was primarily a fiend or an undead.


This is roughly how I've been doing it for the campaign I'm running and it's been great so far. The possibility of having multiple Types on a single Creature has also lead to some fun moments in the game already -- and the players haven't pieced it all together so far, making it even more fun! So far I haven't had to worry about the third case -- I could see another option with a hierarchy of Types (e.g. Undead takes priority over other Types), but having "primary" Types seems like an effective way to do it (and gets the same effect, since you can just always put Undead as the primary Type).

[Asmotherion]

Undead are Negative Energy Spirits. When you see a corporeal Undead, it's a Negative Energy Spirit animating a Pile of Bones or a (Optionally Rotting) Flesh. The corpse animated may or may not belong to the original owner (who may or may not have become corupted into a negative energy Spirit himself), depending on the Type of the Undead.

Fiends are a diferent kind of Evil spirits, that may be Lawfully aligned (Devils), Neutral (such as Incubi/Succubi) or Chaotic (Demons). It is a Coruption of the soul, and originates from a Diferent aspect of reality.

There certainly are aspects that conect the two, but will promote one over the other; Orcus for example will sell you the Secrets of Lichdom and other forms of Undeath over Servitude; The context of the pact is however that, should the Lich have his phylactery Destroyed (and his Undeath cut Short), he will become reincarnated as a Demon serving Orcus.

[Naanomi]

Undead are animated by negative energy (unlike living things, which are animated by positive energy)... but it isn’t necessarily a ‘spirit’. Also, most souls don’t become outsiders (like demons) on death... most either stay as petitioners or become larvae, only a select few end up maturing into Exemplars or other Outsiders