Interesting Thuergy Build

[PapaEmeritusII]

I have a lvl 17 Dread Necromancer that is optimized for undead minions that is taking undead leadership at lvl 18. My DM allows us to make the Cohort with class levels (-3) and our party is ridiculously overpowered so most stuff is allowed. Feel free to blow holes in this build but feel it will do the job off undead buffer and healer (inflict) very well. Also found a nice combo alternate spell source/divine spell power, I have not seen mentioned elsewhere that I thought was worth sharing:

Alignment: CE
Race and Templates: Lesser Assimar with the Unseelie Fey and Magic Blooded Templates. Will be turned into a Spectral Mage template (Forgotten Realms) by my dread necro

Classes: Favored Soul 4/Sorcerer 4/Bone Knight 1/Mystic Thuerge 6

Feats: Divine Spell Power, Quicken Spell, Divine Defiance, Practiced Spell Caster (Favored Soul), Practiced Spell Caster (Sorcerer), Alternate Spell Source, and Rapid Metamagic. *We get a bonus feat at lvl 1 as Human if LA =0...otherwise get -1 for free.

This will allow both FS/Sor to cast 5th level spells, at level 14 caster level before exploitation. Use alternate spells source to cast any arcane as divine (at -1 caster level), +4 caster level from ankh of ascension (once cohort has the funds) and good chance for +4 caster level from Divine Spell Power. So arcane cast at caster level 21 and divine at caster level 22. Still only 5th level spells, but options for good buffs are diminished after 6th level IMO (and my dread necro creation abilities make a lot of good ones not so good anymore).

I had another version with Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Bone Knight 1/True Necromancer 1/Mystic Thuerge 7 with Divine Metamagic Quicken (and over 40 turn undead attempts…), but I figured that would push this over the line for getting approved. Current one is still really overpowered for a cohort.

Lastly, unseelie fey winter chill (su) ability and spectral mage’s paralyzing touch is just broken. Currently CHA mod of 11, so I get next to (or they are stupid enough to get next to me..gain combat reflexes from spectral mage ftw) -11 to their saves and make a DC 28 Fort or be paralyzed :)

Curious as to any thoughts and if I am misinterpreting anything above that would not make this work!

[PapaEmeritusII]

Thanks and will have to take a look at magic blooded again. I may not be able to get unseelie pushed through because of the debate I have seen online about that missing LA.

[Kelb_Panthera]

5th level spells at level 17? That doesn't strike me as the best you could do here by quite a ways. Maybe a savage bard/ur-priest/sublime chord /mystic theurge?

[PapaEmeritusII]

5th level spells at level 17? That doesn't strike me as the best you could do here by quite a ways. Maybe a savage bard/ur-priest/sublime chord /mystic theurge?

Level 15 for the cohort and build in question. Sorry for the confusion, my main character is lvl 17, almost 18 which would allow him to recruit a maximum lvl of 15 cohort (has to be -3 levels since he will have class levels). I will take a look at the above idea though since I previously was going to make a sublime chord boneslinger but the two feats for ur-priest right off the bat make this hard. Also, for the bard would need the Song of the Dead feat for this to be viable for all of the undead minions, which would further loose the luster of high caster level buffs this build can do.

I was really trying to find a way to give the minions (really really good undead) righteous might, but can not use Ordained Champion because of alignment restrictions (Planar campaign and we are doomsguard...so have to be chaotic). Tried making the cohort NE since he does not have to be a doomsguard but the DM shot that down since he does not see someone with Hextor (LE) as a deity working. Also looked at ocular spell, but doesn't work with personal range spells. So for now it is either rings of spell storing or craft contingent spell feat to get them that.

Otherwise greater magic weapon +5, magic vestment +5, etc looks like it will do the trick while being able to cast haste, stoneskin, invisibility, etc.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Level 15 for the cohort and build in question. Sorry for the confusion, my main character is lvl 17, almost 18 which would allow him to recruit a maximum lvl of 15 cohort (has to be -3 levels since he will have class levels). I will take a look at the above idea though since I previously was going to make a sublime chord boneslinger but the two feats for ur-priest right off the bat make this hard. Also, for the bard would need the Song of the Dead feat for this to be viable for all of the undead minions, which would further loose the luster of high caster level buffs this build can do.

I was really trying to find a way to give the minions (really really good undead) righteous might, but can not use Ordained Champion because of alignment restrictions (Planar campaign and we are doomsguard...so have to be chaotic). Tried making the cohort NE since he does not have to be a doomsguard but the DM shot that down since he does not see someone with Hextor (LE) as a deity working. Also looked at ocular spell, but doesn't work with personal range spells. So for now it is either rings of spell storing or craft contingent spell feat to get them that.

Otherwise greater magic weapon +5, magic vestment +5, etc looks like it will do the trick while being able to cast haste, stoneskin, invisibility, etc.

It wasn't unclear. Since you, at least, if not your whole party of PCs, is level 18; the cohorts foes will be selected around that, not its own level of 15. Where did you think I got 5th level spells?

If you just want an undead booster, mystic theurge might not be the best choice. You're probably better off with a dedicated necromancy specialist or even a dedicated booster that can buff you and the other PCs as well.

Anyway, the build I suggested will have one 7th level sorc/ wiz spell and one 8th level cleric spell; 9th if he has a +9 wisdom bonus; as his highest level spells. Just sayin'.

[DragonsAion]

I have a lvl 17 Dread Necromancer that is optimized for undead minions that is taking undead leadership at lvl 18. My DM allows us to make the Cohort with class levels (-3) and our party is ridiculously overpowered so most stuff is allowed. Feel free to blow holes in this build but feel it will do the job off undead buffer and healer (inflict) very well. Also found a nice combo alternate spell source/divine spell power, I have not seen mentioned elsewhere that I thought was worth sharing:

Alignment: CE
Race and Templates: Lesser Assimar with the Unseelie Fey and Magic Blooded Templates. Will be turned into a Spectral Mage template (Forgotten Realms) by my dread necro

Classes: Favored Soul 4/Sorcerer 4/Bone Knight 1/Mystic Thuerge 6

Feats: Divine Spell Power, Quicken Spell, Divine Defiance, Practiced Spell Caster (Favored Soul), Practiced Spell Caster (Sorcerer), Alternate Spell Source, and Rapid Metamagic. *We get a bonus feat at lvl 1 as Human if LA =0...otherwise get -1 for free.

This will allow both FS/Sor to cast 5th level spells, at level 14 caster level before exploitation. Use alternate spells source to cast any arcane as divine (at -1 caster level), +4 caster level from ankh of ascension (once cohort has the funds) and good chance for +4 caster level from Divine Spell Power. So arcane cast at caster level 21 and divine at caster level 22. Still only 5th level spells, but options for good buffs are diminished after 6th level IMO (and my dread necro creation abilities make a lot of good ones not so good anymore).


I might have missed something, but where do you get the turn undead required for the Bone Knight PRC?

[PapaEmeritusII]

It wasn't unclear. Since you, at least, if not your whole party of PCs, is level 18; the cohorts foes will be selected around that, not its own level of 15. Where did you think I got 5th level spells?

If you just want an undead booster, mystic theurge might not be the best choice. You're probably better off with a dedicated necromancy specialist or even a dedicated booster that can buff you and the other PCs as well.

Anyway, the build I suggested will have one 7th level sorc/ wiz spell and one 8th level cleric spell; 9th if he has a +9 wisdom bonus; as his highest level spells. Just sayin'.


Gotcha and I will most certainly look closer at the build you mentioned since that looks like it may be better choice depending on the feats. Actually my main character is one of the lowest levels in the party since I joined late and have died a couple times perfecting my main necromancer. Have 2 level 20s in the party waiting for us to catch up before we go epic and so the disparity in foes is much larger than you thought. However, aside from the occasional mass inflict spell, I am not planning on using anything offensive with this guy (so save DCs do not really matter) and it is all about the buffs so I can get this approved by the DM for not being too overpowered (cohort with main spell caster role is frowned upon). Can buff other allies and everyone in the group can be healed by inflict spells (either undead, tomb tainted soul, or a special bonus DM gave) and probably should have mentioned that :)



I might have missed something, but where do you get the turn undead required for the Bone Knight PRC?

Crap, totally missed that last night when I was playing around with the options. Guess it is True Necro in place of Bone Knight swapping divine defiance for spell focus necromancy if this build holds...but adding bard like suggested may be the way to go anyways. Thanks for catching this and for everyone's help so far!

[PapaEmeritusII]

It wasn't unclear. Since you, at least, if not your whole party of PCs, is level 18; the cohorts foes will be selected around that, not its own level of 15. Where did you think I got 5th level spells?

If you just want an undead booster, mystic theurge might not be the best choice. You're probably better off with a dedicated necromancy specialist or even a dedicated booster that can buff you and the other PCs as well.

Anyway, the build I suggested will have one 7th level sorc/ wiz spell and one 8th level cleric spell; 9th if he has a +9 wisdom bonus; as his highest level spells. Just sayin'.

Damn this is a nice build but I may still go with quantity over quality. I am assuming Bard 5 (need 8 ranks for Ur Priest skills)/Ur Priest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Thuerge 6 which gets you the spells you mentioned above. Feats would make me lose 2 from above (divine defiance is great, but more worried losing about divine spell power/Quicken/etc).

Feel free to talk me off the ledge, but I really feel that the buff spells not as great past level 6....obviously until you get to level 9 with things like Time Stop (not a buff but lends to the build) and Miracle. Not that I am looking for some other class...I will happily take the higher level spells when they come, but not as worried about being able to cast them right away. I may be missing some killer buff bombs, but below is what I would see using:

For cleric list:
7th -
Brilliant blade: Is very nice
Holy Star: Would be amazing if it wasn't personal range
Nar Fiendblood (lost empires of Fearun): Is cool...but main character can cast vile death giving the full blown fiendish template to undead
Spell resistance mass: - Very good but not worth it unless I can increase the caster level to well above 13 (most minions I have already have SR 25)

8th-
Cloak of chaos:
1st effect: A quickened shield of faith gives +5 deflection, greater/superior resistance gives +3/+6 enhancement to saves for 24 hours, protection from law effect is nice but can always cast that in a pinch
2nd effect: Most of my undead already have SR 25
3rd effect: Does not help undead since they are already immune
4th effect: Likely will not have any foes ever fail the confusion save.
Spell Immunity Greater - Best for this level IMO and will be nice for either build. For the time being buffed saves, high hitpoints and SR will get me through.

9th-
Miracle: Can be made into a great buff spell

Sor/Wiz (Have not searched random source books as much as I have with cleric spells)
7th-
Simulacrum:Costly xp wise and so likely will never cast it.
Spell Turning:Personal range otherwise would be great
Limited Wish:Lower xp cost, and could be very good.

8th-
Protection from spells:: Really good, but only slightly better than greater resistance for a hefty 500g per casting. Also only affects spells and SLAs...greater resistance covers everything.
Iron Body:: Cool, but personal as most transmutation spells are
Polymorph any object: Can actually affect undead and would be useful...however most already have really good racial stats. Very well could come in handy though.

9th-
Time stop: Nuff said
Wish: Same as miracle

Other than that, no other buff spells are jumping off the page to me for this guy. Would be nice to have the higher level inflict spells, but my dread necro can help there in a pinch until the cohort gets them (and gets greater harm mass which is only on the dread necro list). We have travel spells locked down with our other party members. So I am not saying casting 7th-9th level spells is ever a bad thing, but for this build its not really that big of an improvement until you get to lvl 9 and even then (aside from time stop) gets really pricey for a poor and low xp cohort.

Again please feel free to point out any hubris here, and again thank you for your suggestion since it really is an awesome build.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Damn this is a nice build but I may still go with quantity over quality. I am assuming Bard 5 (need 8 ranks for Ur Priest skills)/Ur Priest 3/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Thuerge 6 which gets you the spells you mentioned above. Feats would make me lose 2 from above (divine defiance is great, but more worried losing about divine spell power/Quicken/etc).

Actually, it's savage bard 5 for the saves. SB 5/ UP 2/ MT 3/ SC 1/ MT 4 gets you 8 effective levels of bard, 9 effective levels of ur-priest, and 5 effeective levels of sublime chord. One more level of mystic theurge then wrap up with something that advances arcane casting to 20.


-snip-

Again please feel free to point out any hubris here, and again thank you for your suggestion since it really is an awesome build.

It -reeeaally- sounds like you want a buffer specialist rather than a MT. Go with straight archivist (heroes of horror) and cherry pick -all- the best buffs from every divine list. That or even a chameleon (races of destiny) to cherry pick literally -ALL- of the buffs you like from -any- list, level 6 or lower.

[Selene Sparks]

First thing, it's worth noting the main "trick" you're bringing up here doesn't work, in that Alternative Source Spell only works with prepared spells. Second of all, you don't want to ever cast healing on your undead. What you want to do instead is go out and get(or make, if you have to, but getting is better) black sand, from sandstorm. Stick some of it in your skeleton's boots or whatever, and that's free healing forever, without more input. Even without that, your charnel touch is free, so you don't need to waste resources out of combat, and in-combat healing is a bad idea.

Now if you want to buff, a theurge isn't a very good option, given the context. I like theurges, but for what you want, you're investing far too much for too much overlap. For an undead buffer, an archivist is a much better option unless Spellguard is on the table, especially combined with Spelldancer and Reach/Chain/Persist. Another potential option is a bard, optimizing Inspire Courage with the Requiem feat, because even with the penalty involved, IC can go pretty crazy.

Beyond that, if you're dead set on keeping the theurge element, you need to lose fewer caster levels. For example, with the Snowcasting feat(Or Sanctum Spell, or any other similar feat), you can get into MT at level 4, instead of level 7 or 9. To lose minimal caster levels, you could pull something like Bard 1/[Actual arcane caster 1]/[Divine Caster 1]/Mystic Theurge X/Spelldancer 2/Fochlucan Lyricst Y. This way, you're down only 2 levels in one class, admittedly down 4 in the other, but you have real metamagic abuse and don't run out of theurge levels at 13. In such a case, I'd strongly recommend Wizard/Archivist, just because Archivist is good and you want SAD, but most full caster combos would work.

[PapaEmeritusII]

Crap again....I have to stop working on characters late at night. Completely missed the prepared part and thanks for the other class suggestions as well since this may get blown up now!