Help vs higher level paladin

[Darkstryder401]

I am playing a level 9 mystic theurge. I am in line to be terminated by a higher level paladin for turning my back on the ruling government. I was a former agent who did not like the decisions being made. We are currently in a war with a technologically advanced army that is pretty much kicking the crap out of us. My group has really been the only ones to survive a full on fight with them. But I need help dealing with this paladin and he paladin army. I don't really know what paladins are capable of. If I was a full level 9 wizard I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[AnimeTheCat]

I am playing a level 9 mystic theurge. I am in line to be terminated by a higher level paladin for turning my back on the ruling government. I was a former agent who did not like the decisions being made. We are currently in a war with a technologically advanced army that is pretty much kicking the crap out of us. My group has really been the only ones to survive a full on fight with them. But I need help dealing with this paladin and he paladin army. I don't really know what paladins are capable of. If I was a full level 9 wizard I wouldn't worry too much about it.

As a level 9 Theurge I'm Guessing you're Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 3 right? With that, you're essentially Wizard 6/Cleric 6 so you should have access to Wizard and Cleric Spells of 3rd level (and a lot of them at that). You've got access to some very useful utility spells that target the typical weaknesses of Paladin (and other Martial type characters) like Fly and Ray of Exhaustion to shut down charging and pull yourself (and others) into a relatively safe range. Ray of Exhaustion is pretty great in the fact that even on a successful save the target is still fatigued which means penalties and no running, which means no charging.

What are the relative specifics/focuses of your character so that myself and others can help you play stronger to your strengths?

[Darkstryder401]

Well its not really a power build or anything. You are correct I am 3/3/3. Since i was the only caster I have a lot of offensive spells and some support. No metamagic. I took a feat that puts me at a wizard caster level 9 (forgot what its called). I took a feat for marshal weapon longbow (DM likes to take spell books and mess with casters), not the greatest pick but whatever.

He is a lawful Neutral character although he may be leaning more toward neutral since defecting. Trying to stay alive till i hit next level when I can start using polymorph, have about 800 xp to go.

I may have help from the groups druid, we two are the only surviving members of the group and the main targets of the paladin. We are currently under his "protection" and traveling with him and his men. Doing what I can to delay the confrontation.

The DM kinda likes to make NPCs that have counters to the players so I am a little paranoid. The paladin may have levels in fighter as well.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Two very pertinent questions;

How much do you know about this paladin or should we just assume the worst with pal 13?

What can you tell us about this tech and can you reasonably capture any?

[Darkstryder401]

Well knowing this DM I would assume the worst. We know he was a famous jouster.

Well about the tech, its kinda the reason we are in this situation. My group had just killed a group of the invaders and captured some weapons and equipment, losing our monk in the process.

We were trying to retreat to a safe location and study the items but ran into the paladins army where they invited us to stay in their camp as "guests" until their leader could arrive to confirm our identities. We stayed the night with them and our Druid who was keeping watch fell asleep. The next morning we meet with the paladin leader, we had planned on giving the weapons and equipment we found to him in exchange for a less harsh punishment (since it was our mission before we denounced the government).

Unfortunately the items were gone, most likely stolen when the druid fell asleep. So now we are to take the Paladin leader back to were we fought the enemy last and try and recover more equipment.

The tech are rifles that fire multiple types of projectiles, standard rounds, fire mortars, smoke grenades, anti magic round (kinda like dispel). The magic and the tech mess with each other in combat, sometimes the guns wont work and my spells cause additional random unwanted side effects.

[Eldariel]

In a single combat you should be fine. Any way you slice it, even a base Pal 13 has that pesky Divine Grace granting them very decent saves. That said, you can probably stop him in his tracks with simple Grease unless he flies; even on a successful save, particularly horseback, being forced to roll Balance to move is just not happening for most Pallies. Web is another good one, and Phantom Steed at 120' has most of the possible Paladin steeds beat and thus you can evade his melee and probably survive his ranged (Pally ranged isn't much to write home about and if he's prone he can't shoot anyways; or you can Grease the bow). However, taking him down efficiently is a bit tricky unless you have access to Shivering Touch [Frostburn]. Luckily it's a Cleric spell and you have Spectral Hand from the Wizard side to deliver touch attacks at a range. So just first ready an action to Grease him and then Spectral Hand Shivering Touch to drop him likely to 0 Dex making him immobile. Then you can just cut his head off with a scythe or whatever. You can debuff him a lot (Ray of Exhaustion, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc. - things that don't allow saves) and summon things to beat him up (Conjure Ice Beast [Frostburn] from Cleric-list is not bad on this level though Summon Undead and Summon Monster are both worth considering as well), but that'll probably take a better part of your daily spell slots. Hmm, I'd definitely go with "drop one of his stats to 0"-plan; Dex and Int are generally fairly low on Pallies so Ray of Stupidity [Spell Compendium] and Shivering Touch are the go-to options.

Against an army, it's more about logistics, morale and manpower than anything. Single individuals only matter so much and Pallies being immune to fear is a bit pesky morale-wise. Cutting down the leader can still throw the enemy force into disarray strategically and illusions of grander scale are pretty hard for Pallies to deal with efficiently so they could at the very least be mislead.

[Darkstryder401]

Since he is a champion jouster I would assume he is more then capable on horseback.

Don't have grease or web, my original spellbook was stolen. Spells and gold have been hard to come by lately.

Also he does not have Frostburn books so most likely he will not allow spells from it.

[Mystral]

I am playing a level 9 mystic theurge. I am in line to be terminated by a higher level paladin for turning my back on the ruling government. I was a former agent who did not like the decisions being made. We are currently in a war with a technologically advanced army that is pretty much kicking the crap out of us. My group has really been the only ones to survive a full on fight with them. But I need help dealing with this paladin and he paladin army. I don't really know what paladins are capable of. If I was a full level 9 wizard I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Two words.

Baby armor.

http://i.imgur.com/Hyzy4Zw.jpg

[Eldariel]

Since he is a champion jouster I would assume he is more then capable on horseback.

Don't have grease or web, my original spellbook was stolen. Spells and gold have been hard to come by lately.

Well, magic > horses. Phantom Steed beats any jouster on a normal horse simply because it's twice as fast or more. If you lack the Wizard-spells, Cleric Ice Slick [Frostburn] accomplishes the same as Grease minus hitting his weapon. In general, readied actions can block charges and make life miserable for him.

EDIT: Didn't see your edit. Well then, at this point things are getting specific enough that it might be worth outlining which spells and which sources you have access to.

[Darkstryder401]

He said anything in Spell Compendium is ok if he approves it first. Its just going to depend on how he is feeling that day really lol. Sometimes he lets me use stuff that seems pretty powerful and sometimes he won't.

[Darkstryder401]

LOL I like the baby armor but we are on a battle field behind enemy lines and the invaders take no prisoners, some babies are going to be hard to come by.

Besides he already has it in his mind to kill me to serve justice. The whole reason I am to be killed is because I refused to follow orders to abandon a city of 8000 people to be left to die to the enemy.

He justifies it by saying they had to die for the greater good and to save hundreds of thousands more people. So I am not sure baby armor would stop him.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sounds to me like it's time to beat feet rather than fight. Even if you take the Pally, his subordinates almost certainly won't let you escape unscathed so skip straight to the getaway for better survival odds then look for a more advantageous opportunity to get at him later.

What does your current spell book look like?

[denthor]

What are your spells you can access. As a mage and thurge

[Darkstryder401]

First Level:
Magic Missile
Alarm
Hold Person
Mage Armor
Mount
Protection from evil
ray of enfeeblement
sleep
Orb Of Acid/Fire/sonic

Second Level:
darkvision
hideous laughter
invisibility
rope trick
scorching ray
spectral hand
touch of idiocy

Third Level:
blink
dispel
fireball
haste
invisibility sphere
ray of exhaustion
windwall

Pretty Much any cleric spells in the main books and any he approves.
I have the Travel and Mind Domain

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah. Enough mount and invisibility to get the whole party out then scatter and meet up at a rendezvous point. Maybe fireball a tent for a distraction. Just GTFO and come back with a solid plan of attack when he's not positively surrounded by allies.

[Darkstryder401]

Sounds to me like it's time to beat feet rather than fight. Even if you take the Pally, his subordinates almost certainly won't let you escape unscathed so skip straight to the getaway for better survival odds then look for a more advantageous opportunity to get at him later.

What does your current spell book look like?

We have already ran once. It pissed him off so he sent a whole detachment of paladins to patrol the country for us. He will hunt us down if we run. We are also being hunted by the invading army.

We really have nowhere left to go. I think my best bet my be to take him to the invaders and have them kill him and his men. But i think the Counsel(government) will just send someone more powerful after me.

Its been a pretty stressful campaign we are just pissing off everyone lol. My own brother wanted to murder me in my sleep for abandoning the Counsel.

Our twitch chat wants me dead as well LOL. But I think that's cause people just like seeing players die.

[Kelb_Panthera]

We have already ran once. It pissed him off so he sent a whole detachment of paladins to patrol the country for us. He will hunt us down if we run. We are also being hunted by the invading army.

We really have nowhere left to go. I think my best bet my be to take him to the invaders and have them kill him and his men. But i think the Counsel(government) will just send someone more powerful after me.

Its been a pretty stressful campaign we are just pissing off everyone lol. My own brother wanted to murder me in my sleep for abandoning the Counsel.

Our twitch chat wants me dead as well LOL. But I think that's cause people just like seeing players die.

If it's really do-or-die time (I don't think it is) then try to approach on a mount at the center of a sphere of invisibility. Surprise rounds really suck for a defender.

Open with touch of idiocy through spectral hand, pally touch AC tends to be as crap as anyone else's and if you can get him flat-footed it's near guaranteed. Then haste the party and start spamming orbs while the mount keeps you at a safe distance.

Use your cleric casting to run the typical buff routines if you have time; magic vestments, GMW, etc.

Trying to debuff a paladin, especially a higher level one, is a good way to waste turns. If he's got normal minions, you could occupy a few of them with BFC options or debuffs but the important thing here is to focus-fire on the main foe until he's down.

DO NOT let the enemy surround you and pin you down. If things start to go wrong, disengage and scatter. On the run from everybody is better than dead.

[AnimeTheCat]

If possible, prepare a scroll of haste and invisibility sphere. Unless you traded it away somehow, wizards get scribe scroll for free at level 1. Huddle everyone in an invisibility sphere and buff with haste prior to a surprise round. Use your next actions to cast Ray of exhaustion on both the paladin' s mount and on the paladin himself. This will prevent running and charging from both of them. In subsequent rounds, control the battlefield with obscuring mists, and other battlefield control spells. Having a few dispel magic spells or scrolls if possible would also be valuable to debuff the paladin. Paladin are challenging if you don't know how they're built, but you can counter the typical strengths with the spells you have.

[Darkstryder401]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the help.

[Doctor Awkward]

Just some other general advice, if it's not too late.

In addition to considering fear immunity, don't bother with spells that allow saves against a paladin. They will likely make them even with moderate investment (Charisma boosting item and magic items that provide resistance bonus to saves).

Additionally, unless you have a surefire way of unsaddling him, don't waste time going after his mount. Paladin mounts use their owner's base save if it is higher, and they have Improved Evasion for AoE effects. Furthermore, if the paladin has Mounted Combat (and a champion jouster probably does), then he can simply make a Ride check to negate anything that targets his mount and requires an attack roll.

Considering the circumstances, your best bet may be to try and get your hands on a wand of Enervation, and pelt the paladin with that from the back of a Phantom Steed until he dies.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Besides he already has it in his mind to kill me to serve justice. The whole reason I am to be killed is because I refused to follow orders to abandon a city of 8000 people to be left to die to the enemy.

He justifies it by saying they had to die for the greater good and to save hundreds of thousands more people. So I am not sure baby armor would stop him.

You could fight this as a battle of morals.

Point 1
'Abandoning an entire city to the enemy without trying to save any of them would be tantamount to mass murder.'

Point 2
'I am not so loose of morals that I would allow some to be murdered, to save more, when it is in my power to save even a few.'

Point 3
'The ends cannot justify the means, for that is the path of the wicked.'

Honestly, letting some die, to save more doesn't sound very LG to me. I don't think any of these points would be enough to make said Paladin fall, but at the very least, your logic should give him pause.

He's a friggin' PALADIN. He's supposed to be as heroic as (arguably) the Silver Age Superman. Truth, Justice, Freedom, that sort of thing. What kind of Paladin goes 'those people can die, we've got more important stuff to do. No, not even a token effort to try and evacuate as many as possible. Nah, not even a warning.'

Now, I expect you left out a few details, but these points should be enough to give you a leg to stand on. When your character/s is/are acting more heroic than a Paladin, there's issues going on.

'Greater good' should not preclude sending a covert ops group to try and get as many people out as they can.

Always be wary when a DM is running a Paladin, because sometimes they try to use them as a moral authority, even when they don't realise their logic is shaky. Also, as always, your mileage may vary, depending on your group, DM, and other factors.

[cZak]

Is this game enjoyable..?

A DM that overly targets spellbooks & limits resources seems kind of a competitive game


To be honest, I think you're best bet is to clear datum & reassess/ regroup
Coordinate with your druid buddy, and maybe with any other PC's you're more than sure would be willing to go with you.

Utilize your resources (Mount, Invis, etc...) to just create as much space between you & this Paladin antagonist.
The druid should have no problem getting away w shapeshifting


My suggestion: DO NOT physically confront this Paladin when you're surrounded by his minions & deep in enemy territory.
If they have the resources to send a troop of paladins to search for you, that seems beyond your paygrade


What is the basis for your war with the 'Technologically Advanced' group?
Were you just directed by (Authority) they were bad & needed killing?
Do they upset your moral apple cart as much as The Paladin's group?
In other words, is it feasible to switch sides?
If not, I'd suggest going independent. Run guerrilla tactics against both groups & try to make it seem it's from each other

[Calthropstu]

...

Chant "chugga chugga chugga chugga choo choo!" at the gm as he talks.
Let him know he is railroading the crap out of you.

[Darkstryder401]

I have known the Dm and played with him for years. He is pretty accommodating but he does not let us get away with too much. This campaign does seem to be overly stressful compared to other ones in the past. i may talk to him about it. My bother who plays with me has lost 3 characters so far, albeit to some poor decisions.

I have argued the morals with him already, even out of character. He does not seem to want to budge on it. He said the Paladin is not happy about it but he understands it had to be done to save others and he was not at the city at the time. He has a duty to do what the Counsel wishes.

Main thing is I disobeyed a direct order from the Counsel to leave the city and return to the fortified city were the army is. They planned to let the city fall to buy time. I had the civilians evacuate, which the Counsel didn't like (said it caused a panic, and put a strain on resources they don't have, jeopardizing other lives).

I mounted a defense with my party and about 200 people who stayed with me to fight and buy time for the civilians. We didn't hold them off long, though we killed about 400-500 out of around 900-1000. Lost 3 party members and my cohort. I almost didn't make it out, had to make a choice on saving comrades or saving a child left behind. I did what I could to help the comrades escape and grabbed the child and flew her to safety. My character doesn't know if my comrades made it out. ( Out of character, 2 are dead for sure one my be alive)

The invaders just showed up and started killing everyone. No prisoners, killing women and children, destroying everything in their path. All attempts to communicate have been meet with aggression. They have steamrolled over half the Continent. Thousands dead. As of this point no switching sides.

My plan was to use guerrilla tactic on the invaders and hope the Counsel would just leave me alone. I don't really want to fight against my people and the Counsel or the paladin. But my character does not want to follow orders from a group of wizards (Counsel) who leave their people to die.

[AnimeTheCat]

Honestly... it sounds more and more like you should just look the paladin in the face, tell him that if he really believes in his heart that the best thing to be doing is chasing you that he's more than welcome to, but you and your party is leaving to go take on the invader in your own way. If he, and the council, feel that the best use of their time and resources is to chase down a lawbreakers trying to save their people and fight their foe without help from the council or government, just accept the fate and let your character die. You don't seem to be having fun and this would give the DM a chance to just drop it (at least until the real threat is taken care of).

[death390]

i agree with anime the cat here. try and convince him to drop it and flee. if you absolutely must fight your boned it outnumbered and at a level disadvantage.

if it comes down to a fight to the death i would recommend a duel (if absolutely no chance to escape ONLY)

if you have to fight Blink is your friend, 50% miss chance is nothing to sneeze at. you have a 20% miss chance though. you are treated as ethereal so you get the invisible attacking bonus, and even if the guy has See invisibility you get 20% miss chance.

the cleric spell Know Opponent might help, but it is a will save.

if you get the time to buff up you could win push comes to shove.

[Mystral]

I seriously doubt that the DM will make the paladin reconsider, he seems to be of stupid lawfull alignment, but since he is an NPC, the DM doesn't let him fall like he ought to.

[AnimeTheCat]

I seriously doubt that the DM will make the paladin reconsider, he seems to be of stupid lawfull alignment, but since he is an NPC, the DM doesn't let him fall like he ought to.

I'm not so much talking about the paladin (NPC) reconsidering, I'm talking about giving the DM (The "Player") a chance to just drop this whole schtick and let the players just move on with what they clearly want to do, guerella warfare and civilian recovery.

EDIT:
I did exactly what I suggested to the OP before. Not because I wasn't having fun, but because it's exactly what my character would have done. I knew going in to it that if the Knight struck me down, my party would disappear, spead word of what happened, cause and uprising, and unseat the power figure of the govenrment and my character would be a martyr and I would roll a new character. If the knight let me walk, I continued as intended and made a difference for those same people. Either way, I won.

I ended up getting struck down and then rerolling a 1st level expert that traveled with the party, took levels in bard, and sang songs of the heroics of the party and the tyranny of the government and it's army. We caused an uprising, staved off an invasion, and brought about the creation of a Lawful Neutral society that had mercy, yet stern rules built in to it's framework. That was what my character wanted all along and, in the end, got it.

[Feantar]

Is there any chance you could lure the paladin into enemy forces?

[Darkstryder401]

Is there any chance you could lure the paladin into enemy forces?

Yes that is my plan currently. He does not believe that I have fought them, and thinks I am a coward. So I will be taking him deep into enemy territory to the site we fought them last. Hoping they take care of him.

[Darkstryder401]

Update for anyone who cares.

So its been determined by the DM and the twitch chat apparently that I am a two time war deserter, and a war criminal for casting cloud kill spells in a city. Even thought it was in defense of the city because the enemy had breached the walls. So I am in the wrong it seems.

So the paladin it following use around and watching how we work, trying to find a reason not to kill me. So depending how this mission goes I will be taken back to the main city to face judgment.

Only plan I can think of right now is to go along with it. I have been looking up spell to raise my diplomacy into the 30s or 40s. I plan to use this to talk my way back into the good graces of the Council.

From there I will use gather information to find survivors of the 7000 people I saved (even though he says I didn't save anyone because 99% of them would have died in the wilderness...whatever).
I will the use diplomacy to convince them the tell as many people as they can about how the Council left them to die and how I helped save them. Try to get the people on my side and gain some influence.

Then try to build a network of supporters (thieves guilds, merchants, wealthy people) to help me gain political power and work my way up to a position of power. Then change policy to help get me elected to the Council.

[GrayDeath]

That course of action assumes that the DM is going to be (more) reasonable, and/or the world works "logically", none of which seem to be the case so far.

I would rather suggest talking to the DM outside the game and making ABSOULUTELY clear why/how they came to that decision.

If its only inGame views of certain people, and not the DM`s, go for your plan.
If its actually the DM`s opinion....forget it. :smallconfused:

[Vizzerdrix]

Sounds like an awful game. Offer no resistance, comply with the councel, and only cast spells after you get permission from the pally. Politely request written and signed confirmation of a castings you do. Also make sure to install something fun on your phone so you can enjoy yourself while the dm has his little power fantasy.

[D+1]

So its been determined by the DM and the twitch chat apparently that I am a two time war deserter, and a war criminal for casting cloud kill spells in a city.
Interesting that twitch chat should be permitted by any DM worthy of the position to run the game.


Even thought it was in defense of the city because the enemy had breached the walls. So I am in the wrong it seems.
Demand a trial - and demand protection provided by the paladin until the trial is concluded lest you be precipitously and unjustly lynched. Also, innocent until PROVEN guilty is certainly expected of any system of justice worth any respect. Proceed on the assumption that your character IS innocent and will be proven so, and if you are told that the principle doesn't apply in this system of justice you can again poke at the paladin for supporting an unworthy system of justice.


So the paladin it following use around and watching how we work, trying to find a reason not to kill me. So depending how this mission goes I will be taken back to the main city to face judgment.
USE that. Are you supposed to be under arrest or something? If not, then tell the paladin he'd stinking better arrest you if people are accusing you of WAR CRIMES. If you are then you don't have any moral or ethical obligation to be participating in any missions. Hell, anyone LETTING you participate - like the paladin - will be endangering their own status for letting AN ACCUSED WAR CRIMINAL continue to participate in warfare where you would certainly only commit more war crimes. That makes anyone who LETS you near the war into someone who themselves is displaying a WILLFUL andd reckless disregard for innocent life.


I plan to use this to talk my way back into the good graces of the Council.
If your characters guilt or innocence hangs on a freakin' random die roll nothing you say or do will really matter so, yeah, just rig the game mechanics and then say or do whatever you like.


From there I will use gather information to find survivors of the 7000 people I saved (even though he says I didn't save anyone because 99% of them would have died in the wilderness...whatever).
I will the use diplomacy to convince them the tell as many people as they can about how the Council left them to die and how I helped save them. Try to get the people on my side and gain some influence.
Well if the DM wants to win, the DM wins. If the DM wants your PC to live, you will. If the DM is genuinely neutral on the matter of your characters life and death then he certainly won't be going out of his way to make it MORE likely to happen, so just watch for that. It's one thing to introduce a little hardship and uncertainty into a characters life and another to just make the player miserable until the characters inevitable doom, which this sort of smells like.


Then try to build a network of supporters (thieves guilds, merchants, wealthy people) to help me gain political power and work my way up to a position of power. Then change policy to help get me elected to the Council.
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. - Henry VI, Part 2, Act IV, Scene 2.