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Machete
2007-09-01, 03:45 PM
I'm wondering how the Monk's Belt Item and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat from Tome of Battle interact.

Say I've got a level x Fighter who has gotten a hold of one of these belts and taken the feat, does this fighter now have the unarmed damage of a level 9 monk?

Jasdoif
2007-09-01, 03:56 PM
Their effects overlap. Each one's effects are based on your monk level (even if your monk level is 0) without actually providing a bonus to your effective monk level, so they don't combine.

You would get the higher of the two unarmed strike damages.

Person_Man
2007-09-02, 07:42 PM
Their effects overlap. Each one's effects are based on your monk level (even if your monk level is 0) without actually providing a bonus to your effective monk level, so they don't combine.

You would get the higher of the two unarmed strike damages.

Are you sure about that? I seem to remember that we've had this thread before, and that the effects stack.

Gralamin
2007-09-02, 08:05 PM
Are you sure about that? I seem to remember that we've had this thread before, and that the effects stack.

I'm pretty sure Person Man is correct (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51674)

Jasdoif
2007-09-02, 08:12 PM
Are you sure about that? I seem to remember that we've had this thread before, and that the effects stack.Pretty sure, I remember this coming up a couple times before, and the end conclusion being that the effects overlap. Since neither actually provides a bonus to the effective level, their effects can't combine.

One says "your unarmed strike damage is that of a level X+5 monk", the other is "if you have monk levels, your unarmed strike damage is that of a level X+4 monk". Each sets an unarmed strike damage, not an effective monk level; so they don't have the opportunity to stack.



I'm pretty sure Person Man is correct (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51674)Note that the last post on the subject there indicates that they don't stack, and remains uncontested.

Vonriel
2007-09-02, 08:48 PM
Note that the last post on the subject there indicates that they don't stack, and remains uncontested.

Ramza00's post is the last post on the matter in that thread, and he declared that they in fact do stack since neither is a bonus but an addition. I'm not sure where you're seeing another post on it...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-02, 09:07 PM
I was under the impression it was the other way around. If additions stack in that way, wouldn't that mean Monkey Grip and Powerful Build do indeed stack?

Jasdoif
2007-09-02, 09:12 PM
Ramza00's post is the last post on the matter in that thread, and he declared that they in fact do stack since neither is a bonus but an addition. I'm not sure where you're seeing another post on it...Curmudgeon's post, which is a little ways after Ramza00's.
As Arbitrarity and Jasdoif have pointed out, both the item and feat reference your actual Monk level so they don't stack together.The thread then goes down another path involving UMD.

Vonriel
2007-09-02, 09:15 PM
I was pretty sure that somewhere in powerful build's description, it had a line saying something to the effect of "This does not stack with other bonuses of like kind" However, I can't find anything on it, so...


Curmudgeon's post, which is a little ways after Ramza00's.
Ahh, my mistake, I must've missed it after the topic derailed.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-02, 09:19 PM
I was pretty sure that somewhere in powerful build's description, it had a line saying something to the effect of "This does not stack with other bonuses of like kind" However, I can't find anything on it, so...
It's not there. The whole "Monkey Grip and Powerful Build do not stack" thing comes specifically from them referencing your actual size in the same way the monk's belt and Superior Unarmed Strike reference your actual monk level.


Ahh, my mistake, I must've missed it after the topic derailed.
Yeah, I missed it, too.

Zincorium
2007-09-02, 09:26 PM
I was pretty sure that somewhere in powerful build's description, it had a line saying something to the effect of "This does not stack with other bonuses of like kind" However, I can't find anything on it, so...


Actually, powerful build specifically does stack with effects that change size. But neither it nor monkey grip changes your effective size.

Here's the sum up: A character with powerful build remains in their original size category. Powerful build creates an exception to the normal rules, allowing the half giant or goliath to wield weapons designed for larger creatures. Not 'is a size larger for the purposes of wielding weapons'.

Monkey grip also allows the wielding of weapons designed for larger creatures.

See the overlap?

In neither case is your effective size increased, it just happens that you are granted the ability to wield weapons you ordinarily would have problems with. Monkey grip is completely useless for characters with powerful build, because powerful build doesn't place restrictions on the type of weapon that can be wielded and doesn't have a penalty.

Jothki
2007-09-02, 09:35 PM
Since the wordings seem to make no provision for overlapping with anything else, wouldn't that mean that by the RAW, you would deal damage as a level 4 Monk AND a level 5 Monk, whatever the heck that actually means?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-09-02, 09:50 PM
Since the wordings seem to make no provision for overlapping with anything else, wouldn't that mean that by the RAW, you would deal damage as a level 4 Monk AND a level 5 Monk, whatever the heck that actually means?
Uh, no.

You deal the damage as a monk instead of the damage you normally do. Not in addition to.

Jasdoif
2007-09-02, 09:53 PM
Since the wordings seem to make no provision for overlapping with anything else, wouldn't that mean that by the RAW, you would deal damage as a level 4 Monk AND a level 5 Monk, whatever the heck that actually means?Well, if you don't actually have any monk levels, Superior Unarmed Strike has a table that gives you an unarmed strike damage based on your character level instead. If you had monk levels, you get X+5 from the belt and X+4 from Superior Unarmed Strike.

But anyway, each one gives you an unarmed strike damage, yes. But since you can't have multiple values for your unarmed strike damage, you only get to use one of them. Which would be the one with the biggest value, as that's how overlapping usually works; you get the best one.

Machete
2007-09-02, 09:54 PM
Another question, the topic of Superior Unarmed Attack and Improved Natural Attack stacking came up.

What ye say?

Do they stack or do they not stack?

Jasdoif
2007-09-02, 10:01 PM
Another question, the topic of Superior Unarmed Attack and Improved Natural Attack stacking came up.

What ye say?

Do they stack or do they not stack?You can only take Improved Natural Attack with a natural weapon. An unarmed strike is not a natural weapon.

If you're a monk, you can take Improved Natural Attack for your unarmed strike, since a monk's unarmed strike is considered both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purposes of effects the improve it.

If you can take it, it does indeed increase the improved unarmed strike damage.

Vonriel
2007-09-02, 10:03 PM
That was actually hammered out in the other thread you linked. Figures someone would bring it up :smalltongue:

Anxe
2007-09-03, 10:21 AM
There is an item similar to the monk's belt in Complete Divine called Dragonclaw Gauntlets or something. It stacks with the monk's belt, so I would assume that superior unarmed strike does as well.

Jasdoif
2007-09-03, 01:14 PM
There is an item similar to the monk's belt in Complete Divine called Dragonclaw Gauntlets or something. It stacks with the monk's belt, so I would assume that superior unarmed strike does as well.The Gauntlet of the Talon, it appears. Must've missed it before....

Yes, it would stack with a monk's belt or Superior Unarmed Strike, because it actually raises your effective monk level by 5 for the purposes of AC, unarmed damage (which the gauntlet makes do slashing damage), and ki strike. (That the entry specifically mentions it stacks with a monk's belt doesn't hurt :smalltongue: ).